How do I turn the table on atheists?

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Why would I be sorrowful though? And why is it necessary to punish me for using my free will? It cant truely be free will if, failing to use it in an approved manner, eternal punishment awaits me?!!!
You would be sorrowful because you spent your entire life intentionally rejecting the one entity that gave you everything.

Thats absurd. That is like saying a college student can’t choose not to study because by not studying they are punishing themselves by failing the class.
 
Thats absurd. That is like saying a college student can’t choose not to study because by not studying they are punishing themselves by failing the class.
I dont think so. The student knows they have to study to pass the class. They can chose not to study, but they would then already know they are going to fail.

It would be more like telling the student there are classes available, but they are under no obligation what so ever to attend. They have total free will and are totally free to chose when and if they attend class. Then throwing the student off campus for NOT attending class, after telling them they didnt need to :eek:
 
I dont think so. The student knows they have to study to pass the class. They can chose not to study, but they would then already know they are going to fail.

It would be more like telling the student there are classes available, but they are under no obligation what so ever to attend. They have total free will and are totally free to chose when and if they attend class. Then throwing the student off campus for NOT attending class, after telling them they didnt need to :eek:
Who said that you don’t have to accept God’s love as a prerequisite for heaven?
 
Who said that you don’t have to accept God’s love as a prerequisite for heaven?
I dont know 🤷 Im not talking about what you need to get to heaven. Im trying to get to the bottom of why, if Im given free will, when I die, I should be punished for not being able to believe in God? :confused:
 
I dont know 🤷 Im not talking about what you need to get to heaven. Im trying to get to the bottom of why, if Im given free will, when I die, I should be punished for not being able to believe in God? :confused:
God doesn’t judge ignorance, he judges willful ignorance.
 
I dont know 🤷 Im not talking about what you need to get to heaven. Im trying to get to the bottom of why, if Im given free will, when I die, I should be punished for not being able to believe in God? :confused:
There is vincible and invincible ignorance, which either lessens or dismisses the culpability of the actions. If you were in the middle of nowhere and had no way of learning about God you would fall under invincible ignorance (that is to say you had no control over your ignorance) and you would not be culpable. To fall under vincible ignorance you must have your ability to believe in God diminished by something (that is to say you have strong roots in another religion or atheism that you prevented you from converting) and your culpability would be lessened. Only God knows your heart, however, so only He can know how you, me, MindOverMatter2, or anyone else will be judged.

In the end though, if you feel as though you can’t believe in God but want to, you can investigate that desire and keep coming here for explanations to things you believe are irrational. 🙂
 
Hi, Karebear92,

One of the things I have always found in the Old Testament is that God reveals Himself gradually - not contradicting anything previously revealed, but adding on to the information provided. And the OT prepares us for Christ’s entry in the New Testament

Another thing that reveals God’s Plan is that we see how men keep on failing to follow the Plan and how God keeps bringing men back. By the time Christ begins His Public Life we find that most of the Jewish religious leaders have reduced God’s Law of Love to near mindless legalism. Christ warns against this distortion and then opens up the Gates of Heaven for all mankind.

This is the reality of God’s Love and it is much stronger than the denial of His existence.

God bless
There is absolute truth, which existed in the Old Testament, but with a poor understanding of it, they did not follow it correctly. God does not change, so the truth is absolute, but the proper understanding of it is gradual through time.

Does that make sense? 🙂
 
It is not a magical word that solves all problems!
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                             It explains the diversity and complexity of life, which is quite important!You need to justify that assertion.
Truth and order are interdependent

How so? Can you not make a true statement about disorder?
I’m delighted to say that I live in an orderly universe!
Rationality presupposes that truth is valuable! Rationality is valuable because it enables us to grasp the truth.
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    Reason does not presuppose anything! If rationality is necessary  for the formulation of meaningful statements which can be true, then, as  I have already mentioned, both truth and rationality are valuable for  evolutionary reasons.Being valuable does not explain the **origin** of that which is valuable but it is overwhelming evidence that its origin is far more likely to be rational than accidental.
A statement presupposes an author of the statement.
*Indeed, so clearly some things are presupposed, but nothing quite so grand as you seemed to be saying.

Certainly not so insignificant as you seem to be saying. 🙂
Many forms of life interact with the environment successfully without understanding or valuing truth. So it is not necessary for survival or reproduction.
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                              Yes, this is a good point. However, I would reluctantly broaden  out the concept of truth to be the correspondence between the meaning of  any conception of reality, and reality itself.  This could include  non-conscious physiological feedback and sensory data. I think that is  consistent with the essence of the definition of truth, but am reluctant  to broaden the concept because we do not yet agree on the human terms.  For a snail, we can still say that evolution makes it value truth, in  that it can sense light, and presumably it non-consciously associates  light with open space. If it wants to hide from a bird, (let's say), it  would not choose to head to the light *if it valued truth*
.I’m afraid that is a distortion of the meaning of truth in order to reach a preconceived conclusion!
 
In the end though, if you feel as though you can’t believe in God but want to, you can investigate that desire and keep coming here for explanations to things you believe are irrational. 🙂
🙂

Thanks Karebear92 🙂

That’s why I’m here. I used to have zero interest, then marginal interest, and now the more questions I ask, (some think it’s trolling but hey ho) to be honest the more frustrated Im becoming, but my interest levels are definitely the highest theyve been 🙂 Now I have to do a little reading on invincible and vincible ignorance :eek: and see why it matters :confused:

It also might be something to do with the fact that in real life, there’s no one really I can talk to about stuff like this. My husband and family and friends all sing off the same songsheet as me 😃 So when I do posit questions it’s a bit like ‘‘huh’’ not in a rude way, and they most certainly are not anti people of any faith, they just genuinely have not got the slightest, and I mean even the very slightest, interest in anything in this area.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Yes, this is a good point. However, I would reluctantly broaden out the concept of truth to be the correspondence between the meaning of any conception of reality, and reality itself. This could include non-conscious physiological feedback and sensory data. I think that is consistent with the essence of the definition of truth, but am reluctant to broaden the concept because we do not yet agree on the human terms. For a snail, we can still say that evolution makes it value truth, in that it can sense light, and presumably it non-consciously associates light with open space. If it wants to hide from a bird, (let’s say), it would not choose to head to the light if it valued truth.
I’m afraid that is a distortion of the meaning of truth in order to reach a preconceived conclusion!

Um…then what is your definition and understanding of truth, such that it does not require a conception of reality and the objective reality to which that conception corresponds? It would seem to me that Bobber90 has delivered quite a cogent point - reality is that which is; truth is the successful - in this sense, accurate - conceptualisation of that which is, whether this conceptualisation is conscious and deliberate or otherwise. Presumably one does not require the ability to formulate statements in order to apprehend reality.
 
Thanks Karebear92 🙂

That’s why I’m here. I used to have zero interest, then marginal interest, and now the more questions I ask, (some think it’s trolling but hey ho) to be honest the more frustrated Im becoming, but my interest levels are definitely the highest theyve been 🙂 Now I have to do a little reading on invincible and vincible ignorance :eek: and see why it matters :confused:

It also might be something to do with the fact that in real life, there’s no one really I can talk to about stuff like this. My husband and family and friends all sing off the same songsheet as me 😃 So when I do posit questions it’s a bit like ‘‘huh’’ not in a rude way, and they most certainly are not anti people of any faith, they just genuinely have not got the slightest, and I mean even the very slightest, interest in anything in this area.

Sarah x 🙂
Unfortunately that is typical of the spiritual desert in which many people now live…
 

I’m afraid that is a distortion of the meaning of truth in order to reach a preconceived conclusion! Um…then what is your definition and understanding of truth, such that it does not require a conception of reality and the objective reality to which that conception corresponds? It would seem to me that Bobber90 has delivered quite a cogent point - reality is that which is; truth is the successful - in this sense, accurate - conceptualisation of that which is, whether this conceptualisation is conscious and deliberate or otherwise. Presumably one does not require the ability to formulate statements in order to apprehend reality.

Welcome back!

I’m afraid there is no evidence whatsoever that a snail has the ability to conceptualise anything!
 
🙂

Thanks Karebear92 🙂

That’s why I’m here. I used to have zero interest, then marginal interest, and now the more questions I ask, (some think it’s trolling but hey ho) to be honest the more frustrated Im becoming, but my interest levels are definitely the highest theyve been 🙂 Now I have to do a little reading on invincible and vincible ignorance :eek: and see why it matters :confused:

It also might be something to do with the fact that in real life, there’s no one really I can talk to about stuff like this. My husband and family and friends all sing off the same songsheet as me 😃 So when I do posit questions it’s a bit like ‘‘huh’’ not in a rude way, and they most certainly are not anti people of any faith, they just genuinely have not got the slightest, and I mean even the very slightest, interest in anything in this area.

Sarah x 🙂
Well, always feel free to ask questions. Catholicism is by no means simple. In many ways that is the best thing about it: you get to grow in knowledge as you grow in faith. On the other hand, it is also its greatest flaw because if you don’t understand it, it is hard to weed out the majority of bad stuff online and find what is actually true. If you ever have any questions feel free to PM me or whatever and I will do my best to answer it, though I will admit I am just beginning to understand my own faith more deeply. 🙂
 
I’m afraid there is no evidence whatsoever that a snail has the ability to conceptualise anything!
As far as I’m aware snails don’t get drunk - but then they blissfully don’t have any concept of the effect of alcohol… Ignorance isn’t always bliss but in this case there is no doubt about it! 😉
 
Well, always feel free to ask questions. Catholicism is by no means simple. In many ways that is the best thing about it: you get to grow in knowledge as you grow in faith. On the other hand, it is also its greatest flaw because if you don’t understand it, it is hard to weed out the majority of bad stuff online and find what is actually true. If you ever have any questions feel free to PM me or whatever and I will do my best to answer it, though I will admit I am just beginning to understand my own faith more deeply. 🙂
If we live in the dark we need to search for at least one spark to light our way. 🙂
 
You may **imagine **you look better but there’s nothing like golden sunlight for you to be seen at your very best in all your feminine splendour! Please don’t hide any longer…
cough

And on that charming note, I shall bid you all a good night 😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
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