How do I turn the table on atheists?

[OMGJ]

If you were doing that accountant a big favour, then yes it might be good! Perhaps she was terminally ill…

Sorry, shouldn’t joke.

Hmmmm, so I get it on with the hot girl in Accounting and I go to my wife, “It’s ok honey, she was dying. I was doing her a favour”. You think she’s going to say, “Oh well in that case, carry on”???

 

[tonyrey]

Me - I love my husband, and I respect him, and myself and I have an enormous amount of biologically evolved empathy for him as a fellow human being - so I just naturally want to do everything that makes both of us happy, especially him and nothing that would upset either of us, especially him.

Sarah, your “biologically evolved empathy” seems to suggest you have no choice in the matter!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Sarah, your “biologically evolved empathy” seems to suggest you have no choice in the matter!

The level of choice that one has in “selecting” those to which they feel strong affection is a topic worthy of it’s own thread. To summarize I think we have influence over it (ex: you choose who you spend time with and what you do) but the feelings that accumulate about another person (love, annoyance, so on) might not be the result of conscious decisions. I think the same can be said about some of our feelings about more trivial things too. The more trivial ones usually get called a “preference” without too much more being said on why that preference is held.

 

[tonyrey]

*Sarah, your “biologically evolved empathy” seems to suggest you have no choice in the matter! *

You haven’t explained how choice can exist where everything is biologically evolved…

 

[tonyrey]

Hmmmm, so I get it on with the hot girl in Accounting and I go to my wife, “It’s ok honey, she was dying. I was doing her a favour”. You think she’s going to say, “Oh well in that case, carry on”???

You obviously have an obligation to put her out of her misery as swiftly as you can…

 

[Shredderbeam]

Hi, Shedderbeam,

As I appreciate the argument you have provided, it could be accurately summarized by: “I refuse to believe that there is a God and that is that.” And while you are willing to acknowledge the First Cause, you are not willing to acknowledge the Pattern Maker

It’s not that I’m not willing to acknowledge a pattern maker, it’s that I simply don’t find Aquinas’s teleological argument particularly convincing.

tqualey:

Even though you would like to dance around claiming that maybe the First Cause ‘…was.naturalistic/unintelligent…’ I am left wondering about your verb tense choice (was)

I’m not claiming anything. I’m pointing out a possibility.

Sorry, poor word choice on my part. I meant to say “is naturalistic/unintelligent”.

tqualey:

and about how obviously intelligent patterns could even hypothetically come from an unintelligent source. Honest, Shedderbeam, you do not have to believe - but, really - it would make nore sense to just say that - then to come up with these hole riddle bits of illogical statements.

You’re describing my argument as illogical, but you haven’t told me why. You haven’t demonstrated that complex patterns always need a pattern creator.

tqualey:

Ah, but let me try to appeal to the ‘scientist’ in you… As a general statement, we really do not know how to make life from nothing. We can start with something living (e.g., and egg and a sperm) and later have a recognized life form - but we did not start with nothing - we started with life. A lot of people have tried the ‘Primordial Soup’ mix in an effort to get amino acids to come together and spontaneously generate life - even a zap or two of lightning has not really done the job. Now, life is something we see every day in all kinds of forms - and science can not ‘bottle’ it. That should tell you something.

Yes, it tells me a lot about the limits of scientific research and how much we don’t know about the origins of life. That’s about it, though.

tqualey:

Do you remember 'cold fusion"? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion Well, the essence of science is finding what is new and having othrs replicate and expand on the idea - until a new idea comes about… and, then it too is challenged and replicated, etc. Cold fusion is simply a fraud. The Wiki item calls it a hypothesis, but as presented by the two scientists it never happened. That should tell you something.

Yes, cold fusion was a pretty good example of how science weeds out bad ideas. The experiment was repeated, but the original results weren’t replicated. There were also a couple of potential sources of error discovered that would have accounted for the heat in the original experiment. I don’t know what to take from that other than the difficulty of faking science.

tqualey:

There is no way one can experiment with what happens after your last breath. You have one chance to get it right in this life - and that is that. Look at all the famous atheists who are now just numbered as deceased. None have come back to dance on the graves of others to say, “I was right! There is no God!” But, Christ came back from the dead and said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life” That should tell you someting.

Well, of course no atheists came back from the dead. I don’t think any atheists expected them to.

Here’s the thing: I don’t believe that Jesus actually came back from the dead. If I thought he had, I wouldn’t be an atheist. That would be rather stupid of me.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Charlemagne II,

Actually, I think the purpose is clear. And, when most speak of Laws … they understand that there is a Law Giver!

Seriously, thanks for watching the video. I had never seen many of the pictures shown - it is truly amazing. And, I think as we look at the purposeful development of a human being, we can give glory to God for this and all of the wonders of the universe.

It is simply illogical to try and pretend that all of this … just happened! The complexity is simply staggering…to take it for granted and pretend that it does not ultimately come from the Creator - is just rude and ungrateful to my way of thinking.

God bless

Al
**
I saw the video and I agree with you. All this complexity and its development can be explained through evolutionary mechanisms that follow the laws of nature. The issue if these laws themselves are simply accidental or are here for a purpose is another matter. **

Under what circumstances would laws be accidental? I’m not talking about the laws of gravitation or the law of changing seasons.

Under what conditions would the laws of energy and matter be accidental? And how could you ever determine that they are accidental or purpose-driven?

Under what conditions would the law of an expanding universe be accidental or purpose-driven? And how would you ever determine that?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bobber

No, I don’t think so. Objective happiness? Does that equate to telling someone they’re happy because they pass certain criteria, even if they subjectively disagree?

No. Objective happiness means being happy when you really are happy.
Subjective happiness means thinking you are happy when you really are not.

Michael the Archangel is objectively happy.
Satan is subjectively happy.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shredderbeam,

Let me take two of your response and work with it …

It’s not that I’m not willing to acknowledge a pattern maker, it’s that I simply don’t find Aquinas’s teleological argument particularly convincing.

You’re describing my argument as illogical, but you haven’t told me why. You haven’t demonstrated that complex patterns always need a pattern creator.

These two statements are tied to the same idea, so I will treat them as one.

If you saw the video link I posted, here you have visual proof of the incredible complexity of a developing human being. As the narrator stated, it is complexity that just staggers the intellect of all who study this. Now, look around … look in a mirror, in your house, down the block, in your neighborhood, in your city … and while you could go on … you can stop there. Look at all the humans! . What we are really looking is the evidence of patterns… Now, look at a modern automobile manufacturing plant.

Here we have very sophisticated technology in the form of various computer chips going into cars to mix gasoline and air in the correct proportions to enter each cylinder at the right time to turn a crank to move a car forward. Complex? Yes, without a doubt. How is this compared to a human would be like comparing a Swiss watch to wooden building blocks! The human body is far more complex and sophisticated. Yet, no one thinks that cars with all of this technology … just happen! There is a Chief of Engineering that is responsible for all of these items coming together so that a blueprint can be drawn to get the ideas down to the shop floor so the car can be built. There really is a pattern maker who is responsible for the car you drive. There really is a Pattern Maker for you. And, that is the logic of the process

Here’s the thing: I don’t believe that Jesus actually came back from the dead. If I thought he had, I wouldn’t be an atheist. That would be rather stupid of me.

Just imagine for a minute that you are in charge of an orgaization with a long and established history. People look up to you - and, you demand their respect! Your word and opinion counts! Suddenly, some ‘country bumpkin’ comes into your organization and challenges you, embarrasses you in front of your subordinates, humiliates you by doing things that you wish you could do, but can’t. This guy causes you to lay awake a night - not thinking of how you can do better - but, on how you can get rid of him and his annoying manners. Finally, you come across a plan - not necessarly the high point of your career becaues it involves framing this guy of a crime he did not do, lying about it to the point of purjury, encouraging others to suborn purjury and then watching as civil authorities carry out the death penalty. Hey, he is out of your hair - and it is business as usual! No one can stop you from going back to your old and familar ways. But, then you think - maybe some sicko will steal his dead body and try to pretend he rose from the dead.

You have your own security guards - and they are armed - so you post them by the tomb. In 72 hours no one is going to steal a rotting corpse and this will be one bad dream you just woke up from. But, then you got the word that the security guards let you down - and they were obviously too drunk to see what happened because they spun this incredible story of blinding lights and angels. His body was stolen by followers of this major annoyance in your life! But, you will expose them for the frauds they are - he died and that is that. Since you could not do the deeds he could do - neither can any of his followers. In another 24-48 hours you will expose them for what they really are. But, you had better take that seething hatred and move quickly to do this exposing. But, you fail!

Now, just think about this little story for a minute. The high priest Ananias was in such a position. He hated Christ because of jealousy. He was determined to have Christ killed and worked very hard to do this and break every Commandment necessary to bring this about. Do you honestly think that a bunch of bumbling fishermen could steal a rotting corpse and claim Christ rose from the dead and ruin your plans - and you not expose them for the frauds they obviously were. I mean, everyone knows that no one had arose from the dead (oh, yeah, there were these annoying stories about some widow having her only son who died being brought back to life, and then there was that annoying story about some buddy named Lazarus being dead for 3 days and being rasied by the dead…but, these were just stories designed to capture the simple minded.) His followers weill quickly be unmasked - and you had all the manpower, money, and equipment to do the unmasking! Odd, despite all this - His followers continue to this very day.

You know, the original 12 Apostles were obviously foolish men who were enchanted by a charismatic speaker. And, those others who saw Christ - well, they must have been enchanted, too! But until the Edict of Milar in 313AD there were murderous persecutions cdonducted by the Roman Empire against these early followers of Christ - called Catholics. These people were 10 generations removed by Christ - and they were dying for what He said. A person may be crazy enough to die for a charismtic leader … but, someone 10 generations removed doing the same thing is very unlikely. Today - over 100 generations removed from Christ, His followers are still being killed for believing in Him.

I think this is compelling evidence.

You think whatever you want.

God bless

 

[Shredderbeam]

(Edited a bit for length)

These two statements are tied to the same idea, so I will treat them as one.

If you saw the video link I posted, here you have visual proof of the incredible complexity of a developing human being. As the narrator stated, it is complexity that just staggers the intellect of all who study this.

Sure, but that doesn’t demonstrate that design was involved. I never claimed that “not designed” implied simplicity.

tqualey:

Now, look around … look in a mirror, in your house, down the block, in your neighborhood, in your city … and while you could go on … you can stop there. Look at all the humans! . What we are really looking is the evidence of patterns… Now, look at a modern automobile manufacturing plant.

Here we have very sophisticated technology in the form of various computer chips going into cars to mix gasoline and air in the correct proportions to enter each cylinder at the right time to turn a crank to move a car forward. Complex? Yes, without a doubt.

Absolutely, and it’s perfectly reasonable to believe that something like a factory was intelligently designed, as there’s no stepwise way that it could arise naturally.

tqualey:

How is this compared to a human would be like comparing a Swiss watch to wooden building blocks! The human body is far more complex and sophisticated. Yet, no one thinks that cars with all of this technology … just happen! There is a Chief of Engineering that is responsible for all of these items coming together so that a blueprint can be drawn to get the ideas down to the shop floor so the car can be built. There really is a pattern maker who is responsible for the car you drive. There really is a Pattern Maker for you. And, that is the logic of the process

I don’t agree that the analogy between a factory and a human is a valid one. Our biology is certainly complicated, but there’s a stepwise mechanism that could create it: Evolution.

tqualey:

Just imagine for a minute that you are in charge of an orgaization with a long and established history. People look up to you - and, you demand their respect! Your word and opinion counts! Suddenly, some ‘country bumpkin’ comes into your organization and challenges you, embarrasses you in front of your subordinates, humiliates you by doing things that you wish you could do, but can’t. This guy causes you to lay awake a night - not thinking of how you can do better - but, on how you can get rid of him and his annoying manners. Finally, you come across a plan - not necessarly the high point of your career becaues it involves framing this guy of a crime he did not do, lying about it to the point of purjury, encouraging others to suborn purjury and then watching as civil authorities carry out the death penalty. Hey, he is out of your hair - and it is business as usual! No one can stop you from going back to your old and familar ways. But, then you think - maybe some sicko will steal his dead body and try to pretend he rose from the dead.

You have your own security guards - and they are armed - so you post them by the tomb. In 72 hours no one is going to steal a rotting corpse and this will be one bad dream you just woke up from. But, then you got the word that the security guards let you down - and they were obviously too drunk to see what happened because they spun this incredible story of blinding lights and angels. His body was stolen by followers of this major annoyance in your life! But, you will expose them for the frauds they are - he died and that is that. Since you could not do the deeds he could do - neither can any of his followers. In another 24-48 hours you will expose them for what they really are. But, you had better take that seething hatred and move quickly to do this exposing. But, you fail!

Now, just think about this little story for a minute. The high priest Ananias was in such a position. He hated Christ because of jealousy. He was determined to have Christ killed and worked very hard to do this and break every Commandment necessary to bring this about. Do you honestly think that a bunch of bumbling fishermen could steal a rotting corpse and claim Christ rose from the dead and ruin your plans - and you not expose them for the frauds they obviously were. I mean, everyone knows that no one had arose from the dead (oh, yeah, there were these annoying stories about some widow having her only son who died being brought back to life, and then there was that annoying story about some buddy named Lazarus being dead for 3 days and being rasied by the dead…but, these were just stories designed to capture the simple minded.) His followers weill quickly be unmasked - and you had all the manpower, money, and equipment to do the unmasking! Odd, despite all this - His followers continue to this very day.

You know, the original 12 Apostles were obviously foolish men who were enchanted by a charismatic speaker. And, those others who saw Christ - well, they must have been enchanted, too! But until the Edict of Milar in 313AD there were murderous persecutions cdonducted by the Roman Empire against these early followers of Christ - called Catholics. These people were 10 generations removed by Christ - and they were dying for what He said. A person may be crazy enough to die for a charismtic leader … but, someone 10 generations removed doing the same thing is very unlikely. Today - over 100 generations removed from Christ, His followers are still being killed for believing in Him.

To the best of my knowledge, virtually all of our knowledge of those events comes from the Gospels. The Gospels were written, what, 20 or 30 years after Jesus died? How do we know that everything happened exactly as they say, or even whether first-hand witnesses wrote them? (Specifically, the miracles, resurrection, etc.)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bobber90,

I saw the Tom Honey video and commented on it. In my opinion, I was witnessing a totally devestated man - one who had been shaken to his very core and was speaking about his experience. He had not resolved the matter, in my opnion, but sharing his thoughts and doubts with his immediate and internet listeners. And, from this presentation you hope to draw a conclusion?

Well good luck. In no way do I doubt Honey’s integrity or honesty. In my view, the next step for this guy’s descent would be to crawl into a corner and begin to cry. There is no doubt in my mind that Honey has gone down the wrong road - and there is no guarantee how long he will travel that trail before he finds that it only leads to despair.

Rev Honey has numerous Google entries - but all seem to orbit around his single handed approach to challenging God about the existence of evil. Honey’s question: “How could God allow this disaster?” is truly a one-sided experience. Afterall, isn’t this the same God who allows magnificant sunsets, blooming flowers and developing human beings to be visualized on camera? The deaths of so many people is heart breaking - make no mistake about that. But, our role is not to whine about the tragic - rather let it be something that energizes our spirits to pray for these departed souls, work to provide early warning systems for disaster alerts and praise God who both gives and takes without either asking our permission or explaining His purpose.

No one can totally explain evil in anything that would even come close to being a satisfying answer. But, we can honestly try to understand our world - and evil is part of that reality. Check out this link: equip.org/articles/how-should-christians-approach-the-problem-of-evil

God bless

The fact I think we cannot know about deities as much as is claimed is why I have such great respect and relief at the thoughts of people like Tom Honey (Anglican reverend), who say that the object of their beliefs is fundamentally unknown and unknowable. Tom Honey was in the video I posted earlier, talking about his reaction to the Asian tsunami a few years ago, and it was his concern for the human and the definite reality of suffering, above some theorising about the greatness of God, which fired me up. Yes there may be a god, but maybe there isn’t. What do we know for certain? - that humanity has got to look after itself. I cannot abide by a philosophy, religious belief or ideology that privileges the unknown or unknowable above the here and now, or above life.

Personally speaking, of course.

 

[Al_Moritz]

I don’t agree that the analogy between a factory and a human is a valid one. Our biology is certainly complicated, but there’s a stepwise mechanism that could create it: Evolution.

Agreed. The ‘design’ in our genes is a step-by-step historic acumulation of traits through natural selection over billions of years.

 

[atheistgirl]

Here’s the thing: I don’t believe that Jesus actually came back from the dead. If I thought he had, I wouldn’t be an atheist. That would be rather stupid of me.

The thing for me also is, as far as I know, there’s not a single contemporanious (sp?) account either, outside of the Gospels.

Surely this would have been of monumental importance to the roman authorities and the jews? They had after all mocked, tortured and crucified Him as the king of the Jews, and He claimed to be the Messiah and would return. And when he did? Not a single Roman or Jewish historian thought it worth mentioning in the records!?!

In fact there’s a few resurrections in the Bible. including mass graves opening and the dead going into the town and greeting people, and not one single person in the civil, religious or military authorities, not one, seemed to think it was worthwhile to record this

Sarah x

 

[Al_Moritz]

The mathematical probability does not apply to the details of development but to the entire setup and outcome of events in the universe…

Yes, the laws of nature that we have are incredibly improbable, since they are precisely fine-tuned. As atheist cosmologist Suesskind puts it, the laws of nature are “balanced on a knife’s edge”. The laws are so special that they loudly shout out for design. Atheist cosmologists admit that, but offer the multiverse as a solution. Problem is, in order for a multiverse to be able to randomly crank out so many trillions over trillions over trillions of variations of universes that our own, unlikely as it is, becomes statistically inevitable, it would have to have very special properties. These would loudly shout out for design as well. The multiverse would solve the design problem of our own local universe, but it would not solve the overall design problem.

Charlemagne,

this should also answer your question. It is enormously improbable that the laws of nature are accidental.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shredderbeam,

Nothing would ever demostrate design was involved, now would it… All these patterns just always happen so they must just always happen and that is the explanaiton - like … what else could it be but nothingness giving rise to repeatable complexity!

Hey, listen, I really do understand - and, it is OK with me. The bottom line is that reality has consequences. All through our lives we have these annoying consequences that pop up and distrub our equilibrium as we navigate reality. You know, things like you ate all that cake for your birthday and now you are as sick as a dog! Or you were having such a good time at the ball game that you did not study for the test and failed it. A number of people have a lot of confidence that we will be judge (by The Pattern Maker) on how well we worked with the patterns He gave to us. But there are some who just think we will take our last breath and go out of existence. You pick.

So, let’s see what we have here…

Absolutely, and it’s perfectly reasonable to believe that something like a factory was intelligently designed, as there’s no stepwise way that it could arise naturally. I don’t agree that the analogy between a factory and a human is a valid one. Our biology is certainly complicated, but there’s a stepwise mechanism that could create it: Evolution.

Maybe it is just me… but, I have never heard anyone claim that Evolution was an end in and of itself. The usual agrument is that it is a power, a force, a mechanism that got us to where we and the entire universe are today. Well guess what… electricity is a power, a force, a mechanism that enables me to use a power drill, keep food cold in a refrigerator, boil water in a microwave oven and light my house. And, after all that we know we did not create electricity - but we know how to make it and how to use it. I submit that the Master Pattern Maker created and then used Evolution in the same way we work with electricity. Just because we believe in Evolution does not mean it all just happened - how do you think Evolution got here? Right. We are back to the Pattern Maker again. Of course we can continue to say, “No. There is no evidence for God, so I am not going to believe!” Hey, that’s OK. But, you know, there are these annoying consequences for our actions that are simply not going to go away because we accept to acknowledge them.

To the best of my knowledge, virtually all of our knowledge of those events comes from the Gospels. The Gospels were written, what, 20 or 30 years after Jesus died? How do we know that everything happened exactly as they say, or even whether first-hand witnesses wrote them? (Specifically, the miracles, resurrection, etc.)

The honest answer is that if the writers of the New Testament (whoever they were) pulled off this incredible fraud (nothing they said ever happened - it is all a work of fiction - a novel) than for almost 2,000 years men have been reading this work, believing in it and even dying for it by the millions! The answer, then, is that these were the most gifted writers on earth - EVER! I have read novels that have made me feel proud, patriotic, sick to my stomach, euphoric and crying like a baby. But, you know what… I would never die for one of these novels!

Here, check out this link: creatingfutures.net/validity.html Read it because it may actually answer some of your questions.

As I see it, atheists, will always be with us. They will continue to be a minority who simply refuse to acknowledge all of these patterns means that there is The Pattern Maker. If life has consequences - the after life, that Christ spoke about at length - has consequences, too. People chose atheism not because of impoverished intellect on the part of those who argue for God - the Divine Pattern Maker - but, because of what the atheists brings to the table: a belief that if he continues to refuse to believe, he will be judged more kindly. Yeah, I know … you have to believe before you go there… and, you are not doing that. So, let’s just leave it at that. If you pray to God for Faith, you will get it… and maybe that is the best place to really start.

God bless

 

[Al_Moritz]

I submit that the Master Pattern Maker created and then used Evolution in the same way we work with electricity. Just because we believe in Evolution does not mean it all just happened - how do you think Evolution got here? Right. We are back to the Pattern Maker again.

Agreed.

 

[karebear92]

To the best of my knowledge, virtually all of our knowledge of those events comes from the Gospels. The Gospels were written, what, 20 or 30 years after Jesus died? How do we know that everything happened exactly as they say, or even whether first-hand witnesses wrote them? (Specifically, the miracles, resurrection, etc.)

The Gospels (aside from John, most likely) weren’t first hand accounts. The author’s presence during the events of Christ’s life is irrelevant. I don’t have time to explain the formation of the canon, so I will have to get back to you later. But in short, they must pass three requirements: 1) they must follow apostolic tradition 2) they must be accepted in Apostolic Churches, and 3) the must fit with the creeds.

The human authorship of the Gospels is irrelevant.

 

[Bobber90]

Bobber

No, I don’t think so. Objective happiness? Does that equate to telling someone they’re happy because they pass certain criteria, even if they subjectively disagree?

No. Objective happiness means being happy when you really are happy.
Subjective happiness means thinking you are happy when you really are not.

Michael the Archangel is objectively happy.
Satan is subjectively happy.

What extra meaning do you add by saying “This person is happy and really happy”?

I don’t think subjective happiness is of itself wrong, either. How on earth do we go from “perhaps there is a god, perhaps not” to “well, if we think about morality it is clear that subjective happiness is bad”? It only seems plausible if we have already chosen a religion.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, the laws of nature that we have are incredibly improbable, since they are precisely fine-tuned. As atheist cosmologist Suesskind puts it, the laws of nature are “balanced on a knife’s edge”. The laws are so special that they loudly shout out for design. Atheist cosmologists admit that, but offer the multiverse as a solution. Problem is, in order for a multiverse to be able to randomly crank out so many trillions over trillions over trillions of variations of universes that our own, unlikely as it is, becomes statistically inevitable, it would have to have very special properties. These would loudly shout out for design as well. The multiverse would solve the design problem of our own local universe, but it would not solve the overall design problem.

Charlemagne,

this should also answer your question. It is enormously improbable that the laws of nature are accidental.

The “sparks in the dark” hypothesis is not only absurd but self-destructive!

 

[Bobber90]

Hi, Bobber90,

I saw the Tom Honey video and commented on it. In my opinion, I was witnessing a totally devestated man - one who had been shaken to his very core and was speaking about his experience. He had not resolved the matter, in my opnion, but sharing his thoughts and doubts with his immediate and internet listeners. And, from this presentation you hope to draw a conclusion?

Well good luck. In no way do I doubt Honey’s integrity or honesty. In my view, the next step for this guy’s descent would be to crawl into a corner and begin to cry. There is no doubt in my mind that Honey has gone down the wrong road - and there is no guarantee how long he will travel that trail before he finds that it only leads to despair.

Rev Honey has numerous Google entries - but all seem to orbit around his single handed approach to challenging God about the existence of evil. Honey’s question: “How could God allow this disaster?” is truly a one-sided experience. Afterall, isn’t this the same God who allows magnificant sunsets, blooming flowers and developing human beings to be visualized on camera? The deaths of so many people is heart breaking - make no mistake about that. But, our role is not to whine about the tragic - rather let it be something that energizes our spirits to pray for these departed souls, work to provide early warning systems for disaster alerts and praise God who both gives and takes without either asking our permission or explaining His purpose.

No one can totally explain evil in anything that would even come close to being a satisfying answer. But, we can honestly try to understand our world - and evil is part of that reality. Check out this link: equip.org/articles/how-should-christians-approach-the-problem-of-evil

God bless

I appreciate your beliefs will differ from this Anglican’s, and no doubt that influences where you see him, spiritually, but does it count for nothing that some of the most devoted, intelligent and senior Christians think that God’s nature is actually fundamentally mysterious? It is not just Tom Honey being given pause over such devastating suffering, but others who do not explicitly refer to anything of the sort. The (UK) Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, made this well-remembered comment that his faith was ‘silent waiting on the truth, pure sitting and breathing in the presence of the question mark’.

I personally think questions of the divine are not answerable, even devout religious people hold similar views, and I dislike the certainty other believers exhibit - above all when it impacts on the few things we do know about first-hand, like our fellow humans and society.