How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[joe370]

Thank you for your explanation in regards to Jesus. But wouldn’t this also mean that Moses - adopted by the Pharao family - was an Egyptian?

Sure, he could have gone another way but Moses refused, as per scripture:

Hebrews 11:24-28

"By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

 

[mercytruth]

Orthodox Jewry comes in many varieties, as you may already know. I’ve found that the so-called Modern Orthodox Jews in the US are in favor of Zionism as are many of the Traditional (non-Hasidic) Orthodox. Among the Hasidic Haredi Orthodox, there is some division between the Lubavitch (pro-Zionist, for the most part) and Satmar (anti-Zionist). The latter is the rabbi in “The Chosen.” Then there are the non-Hasidic Haredi Jews (sometimes called ultra-Orthodox, but not a preferred term by them) who are largely anti-Zionist. I have no idea where Karaite Jews stand on the Zionist movement. I would guess, as strict “sola Torah” Jews, they are opposed to it. BTW, Conservative Jews are mainly in favor of Zionism, while Reform and Reconstructionist Jews are both split. However, the Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews who oppose Zionism do so not for religious reasons but for political ones.

Do you think there is any merit for the ‘political’ reasons that some Reform Jews have against Zionism? BTW what is a Recontructionist Jew?

Thanks, and shalom

micah

 

[meltzerboy]

Do you think there is any merit for the ‘political’ reasons that some Reform Jews have against Zionism? BTW what is a Recontructionist Jew?

Thanks, and shalom

micah

In politics, there is always merit when speaking of your own position. For those Reform Jews who are against Zionism, there is merit.

I don’t see where Reconstructionist Judaism, which was founded in the 1920’s by Mordechai Kaplan, differs significantly from Reform Judaism. But if you want to learn more about its beliefs, it is described on the Internet: “Branches of Judaism: Reconstructionist Judaism.”

 

[mercytruth]

In politics, there is always merit when speaking of your own position. For those Reform Jews who are against Zionism, there is merit.

I don’t see where Reconstructionist Judaism, which was founded in the 1920’s by Mordechai Kaplan, differs significantly from Reform Judaism. But if you want to learn more about its beliefs, it is described on the Internet: “Branches of Judaism: Reconstructionist Judaism.”

Thanks for that bit of historical basis for Reconstructionism.

I was wondering about the Karaites, so I found the following website. In some ways, the Karaites remind me of Biblical Protestants who reject the extra-biblical traditions of the Roman Catholic and of the Orthodox Catholic.

peshat.com/index.php?itemid=5

shalom

micah

 

[mercytruth]

I really appreciate your response to my questions.

With regard to the past differences between anti-Zionist Orthodox and non Orthodox, I found Chaim Potok’s novel, The Chosen to be my favorite novel by this author. I would recommend it to my fellow Catholic readers if they are interested in knowing something in a fictional way of this past difference of opinion within the Jewish community.

I’ll take a look at that website too.

Thanks again and shalom

micah

The rabbinical discussion regarding the three oaths is absolutely fascinating. How I wish the Roman Catholic church would allow for this sort of in depth discussion regarding issues that have multiple interpretations without being so resolutely dogmatic.

It is just fascinating when I think about it. It helps me sort out the seeming contradictions that are in Israel today.

The UN declaration that approved the establishment of the State of Israel does seem to release Israel from one or both of the two oaths that applied to Israel in not having permission to return to the land. Coupled with the violation of the Gentile oath that they were not to cause oppressive persecution of the people of Israel (as during the Holocaust)
does seem to free Israel to return to Israel enmasse.

However, the sticking point: the people of Israel returned to Israel enmasse before the UN authorized the establishment of the State of Israel. One could argue about the various British mandates, but I do not know if British occupation of the land and their various mandates would qualify as approval for moving to Israel enmasse.

At the very least, the nation of Israel is bound by the UN resolutions surrounding their establishment as a nation.

shalom

micah

 

[rinnie]

How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah? Jews use many Old Testament passages of prophecy to show that Jesus was not the messiah promised to them. How are we to defend our faith against Jewish people who argue this, and how do we deal with these passages?

Here are some verses:
Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18;
Hosea 2:20-22;
Amos 9:13-15;
Micah 4:1-4;
Zechariah 8:23, 14:9;
Jeremiah 31:33-34
Ezekiel 37:26-28
Isaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah 11:2
and many more

Some Jews will not see Jesus until he reveals it to them. There is scripture that some have a veil over them, and it will not be lifted until the time for God to lift it happens.

I have heard it said when all of the Jews see the light the world will come to an end and that is when Jesus comes.

It is said that it is by the Jews that Salvation is given to gentiles. Because God is still giving us a chance to repent and come back to him?

Is salvation from the Jews??? Makes you wonder sometimes. I know of Course its from Jesus, but is it because of the Jews we have time to repent?

 

[YKohen]

Yes, thank you for this very considerate comparison that I can understand
I also believe that you guys are a nation and not “only” a religion. If you ask me it was about time that you found your own country.

Thanks!

There are many reasons people might want to convert to Judaism…

Evidently there are. A number of people in my community did. I mentioned that because from a Jewish theological perspective, we don’t believe that one must be Jewish in order to be a good, holy, saintly person- with a share in the world-to-come. Conversely, we believe that one can be Jewish and be evil.

Once one starts studying Judaism and realizes that, why give up your bacon and lobster, your Saturdays, etc.? The world is your non-kosher oyster AND you can be a saint!

That’s what I meant.

 

[YKohen]

Hey Katrin. As per the catholic church, it was through Mary’s virginal delivery of Jesus that Jesus became the legal son of Joseph by adoption.

Therefore Joseph, who was in the royal line of David, gave Jesus the legal title necessary to access the Davidic throne by adoption.

On this point we differ. In Judaism, there is no such status in adoption. You are the geneological continuation of your biological parents no matter who raises you. If your biological father was from the tribe of Levi and you were raised by people from Judah, you are still a Levite- the son or daughter of so-and-so.

And Biblically, there are no cases to the contrary.

One thing I am learning from this forum is that on a macro level, while Jews tend to interpret the Bible according to its plain meaning, Catholics tend to interpret the Bible much more allegorically.

Interesting.

 

[YKohen]

As I understand it, that describes the traditional view – a child is born Jewish if his/her mother is Jewish. The customs and traditions particuar to a Jewish community (from Eastern Europe, North Africa, etc.) are traditonally passed from the father to his children.

Bingo!

According to the traditional view, no, but some streams of Judaism will say yes depending on his/her upbringing. Furthermore, the way people choose to define themselves means the answers to this question will vary as well.

Bingo again! The sad ramifications come later on if the child of the non-Orthodox want to become religious, marry an Orthodox Jew, etc. All of a suidden they realize that they’re not really Jewish, and that always comes as a major shock.

Please don’t feel ashamed as no question is a stupid question.

And a trifecta bingo!

As Hillel said: “A shy person (meaning an overly shy person- who is embarrassed to ask questions: YKohen) cannot learn…”.

 

[joe370]

On this point we differ. In Judaism, there is no such status in adoption. You are the geneological continuation of your biological parents no matter who raises you. If your biological father was from the tribe of Levi and you were raised by people from Judah, you are still a Levite- the son or daughter of so-and-so.

And Biblically, there are no cases to the contrary.

One thing I am learning from this forum is that on a macro level, while Jews tend to interpret the Bible according to its plain meaning, Catholics tend to interpret the Bible much more allegorically.

Interesting.

Jeremiah 22:30 reminds us that if Jesus had been the genealogical continuation (physical descendent) from Joseph, a divine curse would have been on Him if in fact He had succeeded to the Davidic throne. Jeremiah tells us a terrible curse was pronounced on king Jehoiachin who was the last of the actual reigning kings who descended from King David.

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”

Because of God’s curse on Jehoiachin, no king, as per scripture, who descended in that line could be a legitimate king. Though Jehoiachin did have children, he was considered childless because none of his descendents were allowed by God to sit on the throne of David and rule Judah. 1 Chron. 3:17 The line of ruler-ship passed through Jeconiah’s sons though none of them ever occupied the throne.

It seems quite scriptural. If Joseph had been the biological father of Jesus then Jesus could not have been the Messiah, which is why Jesus is the biological son of Mary and adopted son of Joseph. In other words, if Jesus had been a biological descendent of Joseph as opposed to being born of the virign Mary, then Jesus would have been disqualified because of aforementioned divine curse.

However, that was not the case. Jesus met the criteria by not being a physical descendent of Joseph. Joseph of course was a descendent of David and Jesus’ legal father, therefore, Jesus’ right to the throne came through His legal adoptive father thereby avoiding the aforementioned curse of Jehoiachin. Ultimately, because Jesus was a divine child his adoptive father, rightfully handed the Davidic reign over to Him, making Jesus the legitimate heir to the throne.

To sum up, as per scholarship:

The line that had no curse upon it produced Heli and his daughter the Virgin Mary and her Son Jesus Christ. He is therefore eligible by the line of Nathan and exhausts that line.

The line that had a curse on it produced Joseph and exhausts the line of Solomon, for Joseph’s other children now have an elder brother who, legally, by adoption, is the rightful heir to the Davidic Throne. Here we see a curse regarding one line (Joseph) which rules that line out, and the lack of reigning royalty, regarding the other (Mary).

The solution that exhausted both lines:

*“But when God the Holy Spirit begat the Lord Jesus Christ in the womb of the virgin without any use of a human father, the child that was born was the seed of David according to the flesh. And when Joseph married Mary and took the unborn child under his protecting care, giving him the title that had come down to him through his ancestor Solomon, the Lord Jesus became the legal Messiah, the royal messiah, the uncursed messiah, the true Messiah, the only possible messiah.” *

Quite logical and scriptural…

 

[YKohen]

I really appreciate your response to my questions.

With regard to the past differences between anti-Zionist Orthodox and non Orthodox, I found Chaim Potok’s novel, The Chosen to be my favorite novel by this author. I would recommend it to my fellow Catholic readers if they are interested in knowing something in a fictional way of this past difference of opinion within the Jewish community.

I’ll take a look at that website too.

Thanks again and shalom

micah

I never read anything by Potok, but it seems to me that he, like some other Jewish authors (Philip Roth, who I have read, comes to mind), describes a certain mindset of a specific type of secularized American Jew of a specific generation. They were all born around the same time and grew up in an environment that no longer exists. Still, from a historical perspective, it’s interesting.

I’m personally more into the Tom Clancy type of fiction.

But we’re digressing here.

 

[YKohen]

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”…

Interesting theory, but it doesn’t work.

If you look at your own New Testament, for instance, Matthew 1:1-17 (and Luke Chapter 3) shows how Joseph is a descendent of King David. It is there for a reason- to prove the connection. Otherwise, who cares about Joseph and his lineage? It is also in St. Augustine, “On the Harmony of the Gospels”, II, i, 2.

By your line of reasoning, if none of Jeconiah’s (in Hebrew, Yehoiachin/Yehoiachim, or transliterated, Jehoiachin/Jehoiachim) descendants would inherit the throne, that would necessarily include Jesus.

Again, NOWHERE in the Bible is there a case of adoption where the child is no longer considered the descendant ofthe biological father.

Now Jeconiah wasn’t the only PHYSICAL descendant of King David, and in fact, the curse was ONLY on him and his line.

Who followed Jeconiah as King?

Zedekiah- who was also of the PHYSICAL Davidic line- the MALE Davidic line:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Genealogy_of_the_kings_of_Israel_and_Judah.svg

Quite logical and scriptural…

Again, I would like to stress that I personally don’t see this as a productive thread. I see it as counter-productive in many ways. All it will produce is animosity.

Just my own 2 cents.

 

[joe370]

YKohen;9703442]Interesting theory, but it doesn’t work.

If you look at your own New Testament, for instance, Matthew 1:1-17 (and Luke Chapter 3) shows how Joseph is a descendent of King David. It is there for a reason- to prove the connection.

I already agreed with that… Joseph is a descendent of King David… By the way, I agree that Zedekiah was the last king of the Davidic dynasty to rule Judah.

By your line of reasoning, if none of Jeconiah’s (in Hebrew, Yehoiachin/Yehoiachim, or transliterated, Jehoiachin/Jehoiachim) descendants would inherit the throne, that would necessarily include Jesus.

Yes. If Jesus had been the biological son of Joseph, then you would be right, but he was not. Again, as per scripture, Jeremiah 22:30 reminds us that if Jesus had been the genealogical continuation (physical descendent) from Joseph, a divine curse would have been on Him if in fact He had succeeded to the Davidic throne, as did Zedekiah, in a way, before the time of Jesus. Jeremiah tells us a terrible curse was pronounced on king Jehoiachin (which included Zedekiah) who was the last of the actual reigning kings who descended from King David. Technically Zedekiah was not a king but that is irrelevant to my point.

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”

Again, NOWHERE in the Bible is there a case of adoption where the child is no longer considered the descendant ofthe biological father.

The physical line was cursed; those are not my words:

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”

Now Jeconiah wasn’t the only PHYSICAL descendant of King David, and in fact, the curse was ONLY on him and his line.

Who followed Jeconiah as King?

Zedekiah- who was also of the PHYSICAL Davidic line- the MALE Davidic line:

The direct Davidic line ended with officially with Jeconiah, and yes Zedekiah was in that line just as you have stated:

Zedekiah- who was also of the PHYSICAL Davidic line- the MALE Davidic line

However, even if Jesus had,or someone in the future claims to be of the physical Davidic line, according to scripture it is still cursed therefore the Messiah can not come from that line.

 

[joe370]

I already agreed with that… Joseph is a descendent of King David… By the way, I agree that Zedekiah was the last king of the Davidic dynasty to rule Judah.

Yes. If Jesus had been the biological son of Joseph, then you would be right, but he was not. Again, as per scripture, Jeremiah 22:30 reminds us that if Jesus had been the genealogical continuation (physical descendent) from Joseph, a divine curse would have been on Him if in fact He had succeeded to the Davidic throne, as did Zedekiah, in a way, before the time of Jesus. Jeremiah tells us a terrible curse was pronounced on king Jehoiachin (which included Zedekiah) who was the last of the actual reigning kings who descended from King David. Technically Zedekiah was not a king but that is irrelevant to my point.

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”

The physical line was cursed; those are not my words:

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”

The direct Davidic line offically ended with Jeconiah and unofficially with Zedekiah who was in the line of Jehoiachin. However, even if Jesus or someone in the future, claims to be of the physical Davidic line, according to scripture it is still cursed. therefore the Messiah can not come from that line.

 

[joe370]

Interesting theory, but it doesn’t work.

If you look at your own New Testament, for instance, Matthew 1:1-17 (and Luke Chapter 3) shows how Joseph is a descendent of King David. It is there for a reason- to prove the connection. Otherwise, who cares about Joseph and his lineage? It is also in St. Augustine, “On the Harmony of the Gospels”, II, i, 2.

By your line of reasoning, if none of Jeconiah’s (in Hebrew, Yehoiachin/Yehoiachim, or transliterated, Jehoiachin/Jehoiachim) descendants would inherit the throne, that would necessarily include Jesus.

Again, NOWHERE in the Bible is there a case of adoption where the child is no longer considered the descendant ofthe biological father.

Now Jeconiah wasn’t the only PHYSICAL descendant of King David, and in fact, the curse was ONLY on him and his line.

Who followed Jeconiah as King?

Zedekiah- who was also of the PHYSICAL Davidic line- the MALE Davidic line:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Genealogy_of_the_kings_of_Israel_and_Judah.svg

Quite logical and scriptural…

Again, I would like to stress that I personally don’t see this as a productive thread. I see it as counter-productive in many ways. All it will produce is animosity.

Just my own 2 cents.

Hey YKohen, disregard post 136. I am not sure what happened there…Must of inadvertently happened when editing the preceding post…

 

[YKohen]

I already agreed with that… Joseph is a descendent of King David… By the way, I agree that Zedekiah was the last king of the Davidic dynasty to rule Judah.

And Jesus is NOT a descendant of Joseph- or of King David.

Yes. If Jesus had been the biological son of Joseph, then you would be right, but he was not. Again, as per scripture, Jeremiah 22:30 reminds us that if Jesus had been the genealogical continuation (physical descendent) from Joseph, a divine curse would have been on Him if in fact He had succeeded to the Davidic throne, as did Zedekiah, in a way, before the time of Jesus. Jeremiah tells us a terrible curse was pronounced on king Jehoiachin (which included Zedekiah) who was the last of the actual reigning kings who descended from King David.

He wasn’t the biological son, so before we even get to the issue of him not accomplishing what the messiah must in order to be considered the messiah, he was already out of the running. So am I, as a descendant of Aaron.

And it isn’t as if Jeremiah was talking about Jesus in any way, shape or form. He wasn’t.

Technically Zedekiah was not a king but that is irrelevant to my point.

The Bible says otherwise:

• Jeremiah 21:1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, when king Zedekiah sent unto him Pashhur the son of Malchiah, and Zephaniah the son of Maaseiah the priest, saying:
• Jeremiah 21:7 And afterward, saith the LORD, I will deliver Zedekiah king of Judah, and his servants, and the people, and such as are left in this city from the pestilence, from the sword, and from the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon…
• Jeremiah 24:8 And as the bad figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so bad; surely thus saith the LORD: So will I make Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt.
• Jeremiah 27:3 and send them to the king of Edom, and to the king of Moab, and to the king of the children of Ammon, and to the king of Tyre, and to the king of Zidon, by the hand of the messengers that come to Jerusalem unto Zedekiah king of Judah;
• Jeremiah 28:1 And it came to pass the same year, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah…

Same with Jeremiah 32:1 , 3, and 4, 34:2, 4, 6, 8, 21, and a couple dozen more places in the Bible.

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”

The physical line was cursed; those are not my words:

“Thus says the Lord, ‘Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.’ ”

The direct Davidic line ended with officially with Jeconiah, and yes Zedekiah was in that line just as you have stated

Again:

Jeremiah 22:30 Thus saith the L-RD: Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

That’s true: No descendant of Coniah would, but another PHYSICAL branch of King David’s would- did, and will again in the future.

And that necessarily rules out Jesus.

 

[joe370]

YKohen

Hey Ykohen, I will respond to this post in a minute. I have been trying to see things from your perspective.

Davidic lineage:

David to Solomon to Rehoboam…to Uzziah to Jotham to Ahaz to Hezkiah to Manasseh to Amon to Josiah and finally to Zedikiah:

As per the OT: “Zedekiah son of Josiah succeeded Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim as the king of Judah. He was appointed by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.” .

Ok, but Zedikiah does not seem to be mentioned as part of the royal line in 1 Chronicles 3:

“The successors of Jehoiakim: Jehoiachin, (also known as Jeconiah) his son, and Zedekiah. The Royal Line After the Exile: The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive: Shealtiel his son, Malkiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama and Nedabiah.”

Your thoughts friend?

 

[joe370]

YKohen;9703695]And Jesus is NOT a descendant of Joseph- or of King David.

Can you prove this?

He wasn’t the biological son, so before we even get to the issue of him not accomplishing what the messiah must in order to be considered the messiah, he was already out of the running. So am I, as a descendant of Aaron.

So based on this you have eliminate Jesus Christ? OK…

And it isn’t as if Jeremiah was talking about Jesus in any way, shape or form. He wasn’t.

No, Jesus was not mentioned…

That’s true: No descendant of Coniah would, but another PHYSICAL branch of King David’s would- did, and will again in the future.

luvnpeas.org/crunchy/ebooks/tanakh/DivreiYamimA.html#1_Chronicles3

13 Ahaz his son, Hezekiah his son, Manasseh his son;
14 Amon his son, Josiah his son.
15 And the sons of Josiah: the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah…

David to Zedekiah to the true Meissiah in the future? Well, I certainly respect your beliefs my friend.

 

[YKohen]

Hey Ykohen, I will respond to this post in a minute. I have been trying to see things from your perspective.

Davidic lineage:

David to Solomon to Rehoboam…to Uzziah to Jotham to Ahaz to Hezkiah to Manasseh to Amon to Josiah and finally to Zedikiah:

As per the OT: “Zedekiah son of Josiah succeeded Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim as the king of Judah. He was appointed by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.” .

Ok, but Zedikiah does not seem to be mentioned as part of the royal line in 1 Chronicles 3:

“The successors of Jehoiakim: Jehoiachin, (also known as Jeconiah) his son, and Zedekiah. The Royal Line After the Exile: The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive: Shealtiel his son, Malkiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama and Nedabiah.”

Your thoughts friend?

2 Chronicles Chapter 36

10 And at the return of the year king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem.

11 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign; and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem;

Back in 1 Chronicles 3, this is the text:

15 And the sons of Josiah: the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum.

16 And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.

17 And the sons of Jeconiah–the same is Assir–Shealtiel his son;

18 and Malchiram, and Pedaiah, and Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama, and Nedabiah.

What am I missing here? NOWHERE in the original Hebrew text is there any verse that says “The Royal Line After the Exile: The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive”

 

[YKohen]

Can you prove this?

I don’t have to prove something that isn’t there in the text. You would have to be the one who has to prove that something not in the text is there.

So based on this you have eliminate Jesus Christ? OK…

Of course.

David to Zedekiah to the true Meissiah in the future?

Could be through Zedekiah’s descendants or through some other physical branch of the Davidic line (besides Coniah, of course)- if there is one. I’m not the expert, and I’m certainly no prophet.

Well, I certainly respect your beliefs my friend.

Same here. Through you I am learning a lot that I didn’t know before.