How do other religions view Jesus?

[hasantas]

=MartinJordan;12275022]

What wrong decisions do you mean?

Forexample the inquisitions and crusades.

It’s very simple. You need to admit it is 600 years after Jesus so the foot is actually not ours. Plus the Church doesn’t talk about Mohammed at all neither did Jesus. That also means the Holy Spirit in Islam is not the Holy Spirit of Christians.

There are some verses in Gospels which point prophet Mohammed but these kinds of verses were changed a bit by lapse of time. There are yet some verses. Holy Spirit is not property of Christians as they suppose. Do not be selfish. Christians make of a special and ultimate meaning and then appropriate it. God is all people’s. There is no a trinity God in unique unity but there is only one God with all attributes in unity. If there should be plural Gods the order and unity of universe would collapse. Neither Holy Spirit nor Jesus can do anything by themselves. That means they are not part of divinity.

However, your Quran calls Jesus the Spirit of God and Word of God? Can you explain why?

If Muslims interpret Quran as Christians do Gospels then they will say that Jesus is spirit of God then both have same substance and both are divine as God. But the fact is that Jesus had born in a supernatural way and God mention that is easy for Him. God do not need causes and laws because God creates these. God gave and put spirit of Jesus without a father(cause). In Quran it is mentioned that when Allah wish anything to be then Allah says happen and it happen. That is word of Allah. So Allah wish to Jesus be and says happen and it happened. Word of Allah is Bible also because Bible is the revelation from God. Word of Allah is the facts which Allah gave out by Jesus. Jesus spoke “words” in cradle. Word of Allah is good news and good news is Gospel.

 

[dronald]

=MartinJordan;12275022]

There are some verses in Gospels which point prophet Mohammed

Evidence please.

but these kinds of verses were changed a bit by lapse of time.

Evidence of this as well please.

 

[SteveVH]

You are rather missing the point - to people who don’t think the New Testament is scripture/reportage, he’s just a character in a story, albeit possibly based on some aspects of the life of somebody who actually existed.

Sorry, but I am not “rather missing the point”. My post was in response to this:

Originally Posted by DaddyGirl
? It may be beyond your comprehension, but it’s a fact and understandable among many for thousands of years that millions of people have studied the words written in the Christian canon and come to the conclusion that Jesus was not “the Son of God”. But that doesn’t mean they think he was either lying or crazy.

You are now changing the scenario to people who believe the Bible is fiction. That is an entirely different matter. You were speaking of people who “have studied the words written in the Christian canon and have come to the conclusion that Jesus was not the Son of God”. I have never really met anyone, much less “millions” who have studied the Christian Scriptures seriously while at the same time believing it is complete fiction. What would be the point?

And as far as questioning whether or not Jesus was even a real person doesn’t quite line up with one concluding that he was not the Son of God. Who in the world would even debate whether or not a fictitious character was or was not the Son of God?

And let us recall that this all started with people who think that Jesus was very real, but was just a prophet and a good man. Not with people who dismiss the Scriptures out of hand.

 

[SteveVH]

How Church could be guided by the Holy Spirit?

Because Jesus Christ, the Son of God, sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth.

And who is that “Holy Spirit”?

The third Person of the Holy Trinity.

Did not Church give any wrong decision?

Not when it comes to faith and morals. We have had many Church members, both clerics and laymen, who have made wrong decisions. But their wrong decisions have never changed the doctrines and beliefs of the Church.

I know there are many false decisions which Church men gave and miilions of people suffer from that.

Please give me an example of the false decisions that were made which has caused suffering to millions of people.

Here you shoot your own leg. İt is so problematic say that “Our Church didn’t come from the Bible; the Bible came from our Church”.

Why is this problematic? It happens to be a fact that the Church existed and flourished before the New Testaments was even written. And none of the sacred texts in the Bible were known to be the word of God until the Church proclaimed them so nearly 400 years after Christ. Our faith is in a Person, Jesus Christ. We do not extract our faith from the Bible. It was very much in place before the Bible.

If you purpose to make Church trustable support it with Bible then ı can trust too.

If you trust in the Bible then why are you not Christian?

But you claim that you can form Bible according to Church and that is the main point Muslims do not accept.

Sorry, but it is a matter of historical truth. Our faith comes directly from Christ, through the Apostles. Jesus never wrote down a word and never commanded anyone else to write anything. Accept it or don’t accept it, but it happens to be the truth.

Otherwise we are “people of book” but not “people of Church”.

We are not “people of the book”. We are the people of God, the mystical body of Christ.

God bless you.

Steve

 

[Protestor]

Protestants love him!

 

[SteveVH]

Protestants love him!

 

[Kaninchen]

I have never really met anyone, much less “millions” who have studied the Christian Scriptures seriously while at the same time believing it is complete fiction. What would be the point?

Hm, so trying to understand why Christians believe what they believe is of no interest to non-believers?

 

[hasantas]

=dronald;12275340]

Evidence please.

Here some evidences:

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
(John, Chapter 15, verses:26-27)

Interpretation of Comforter and Spirit of truth is “Periklitos” or “Paraklitus” in Greek gospels. Periklitos mean praised and Mohammed and Ahmad mean praised too in Arabic.

1. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurát (Law) (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “This is evident sorcery!” (Quran, As-Saff, verse:6)

Except prophet Mohammed nobody have got that attributes. Jesus had said Periklitos will come and he is Mohammed.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and ofrighteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bearthem now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(John, Chapter 16, verses:7-13)

After Jesus the prophet Mohammed came and confirmed Jesus. Jesus said ı will go because if I do not go Comforter(Periklitos) won’t come. “for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” describe the way revelation came to Mohammed. Because Bible were revealed to Jesus in once and Torah were revealed to Moses in once on plates. But Gabriel brought revelation to Mohammed for a period of time about 23 years and Gabriel told Mohammed and prophet Mohammed spoke to Sahabas what He heard from Gabriel and sahabas wrote Quran. Jesus described how Mohammed would take revelation.

15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(John, Chapter 14, verses:15-16)

Comforte(Periklitos(Mohammed)) will come and he may abide forever: There won’t be any other prophet after him.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of thisworld cometh, and hath nothing in me.
(John, Chapter 14. Verse:30)

Seyyidu’l-evvelîne ve’l-âhirîn( the prince of earliers and recents) is Mohammed.
107. We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. (Quran, Al-Anbiyaa, verse:107)

2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (Deuteronomy, Chapter 33, verse: 2)

Mount Paran is Mecca because in Genesis chapter 21 it is said that Abraham took and left Hagar and Ishmael on mount Paran. Mecca is homeland of Ishmael and Mohammed descend from Ishmael.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speakunto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
(Deuteronomy, Chapter 18, verses: 18-19)

A prophet will raise from brethren of İsraels. İsraels are son of İsrael(Jacob). Jacob is son of Isaac. Isaac is stepbrother of Ishmael. Then the brethrenof Israels are son of Ishmael. Mohammed is generated from Ishmael. That prophet will raise is Mohammed.

 

[hasantas]

Evidence of this as well please.

When Mohammed declared his prophethood even before that many pastors and rabbis have seen remarks of prophethood on Mohammed. Ofcourse they must have learnt all these things from Torah and from Bible. But there are a little from that verses which show Mohammed.

 

[jakasaki]

Dronald…

Surely you already knew our Muslim member was going to post the “paraklitos” rubbish to point to the prophet of Islam.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Dronald…

Surely you already knew our Muslim member was going to post the “paraklitos” rubbish to point to the prophet of Islam.

With their mastery of the Greek language and all

 

[dronald]

Dronald…

Surely you already knew our Muslim member was going to post the “paraklitos” rubbish to point to the prophet of Islam.

Yes, but I like to make sure in order to see how ignorant our Muslim Gospel “readers” are. That way I can judge if they’re educated and have read the Gospel, or are just spewing rubbish as you say.

They don’t read the Bible as is clear, because they quote stuff like this. We know John wrote one of the Gospels as one book; not like the Qur’an which spans many revelations over a long period of time. So when John quotes Jesus speaking of the Spirit of Truth who “will be in you” etc, we know Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

I feel sad. Because I know Muslims are being lied to in order to justify their beliefs, and it hearts my heart to be honest.When they refrain from reading the Bible and take a passage out of context to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (which Jesus said is unforgivable) it hurts. Not because i’m offended, but because I know there is no hope for those who lie to themselves in order to justify their beliefs. It’s just really sad.

 

[dronald]

When Mohammed declared his prophethood even before that many pastors and rabbis have seen remarks of prophethood on Mohammed. Ofcourse they must have learnt all these things from Torah and from Bible. But there are a little from that verses which show Mohammed.

Codex Vaticanus

Codex Sinaiticus

P52

Also, read the ECF quotes of the NT from the 2nd century.

I’m sorry, but you’re lying to yourself, and I hope you come out of it one day.

 

[MartinJordan]

Here are evidences

Hasantas did your seal of the prophets believe God as The Father?

MJ

 

[John_Lazarus]

The All-Knowing, Fairly-Truthy, NPOVy, and Hopefully-Well-Cited Wikipedia says:

Bahá’í teachings consider Jesus to be a manifestation of God, a Bahá’í concept for prophets—intermediaries between God and humanity, serving as messengers and reflecting God’s qualities and attributes. The Bahá’í concept emphasizes the simultaneous qualities of humanity and divinity; thus, it is similar to the Christian concept of incarnation. Bahá’í thought accepts Jesus as the Son of God. In Bahá’í thought, Jesus was a perfect incarnation of God’s attributes, but Bahá’í teachings reject the idea that divinity was contained with a single human body, stating that, on the contrary, God transcends physical reality.

Bahá’u’lláh, the founder of the Bahá’í Faith, wrote that since each manifestation of God has the same divine attributes, they can be seen as the spiritual “return” of all previous manifestations of God, and the appearance of each new manifestation of God inaugurates a religion that supersedes the former ones, a concept known as progressive revelation. Bahá’ís believe that God’s plan unfolds gradually through this process as mankind matures, and that some of the manifestations arrive in specific fulfillment of the missions of previous ones. Thus, Bahá’ís believe that Bahá’u’lláh is the promised return of Christ. Bahá’í teachings confirm many, but not all, aspects of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels. Bahá’ís believe in the virgin birth and in the Crucifixion, but see the Resurrection and the miracles of Jesus as symbolic.

In **Gnosticism **(now a largely extinct religion), Jesus was sent from the divine realm and provided the secret knowledge (gnosis) necessary for salvation. Most Gnostics believed that Jesus was a human who became possessed by the spirit of Christ at his baptism. The spirit left Jesus’ body during the crucifixion but later raised the body from the dead. Some Gnostics, however, were docetics, believing that Jesus did not have a physical body, but only appeared to have. Manichaeism, a Gnostic sect, accepted Jesus as a prophet, along with Gautama Buddha and Zoroaster.

Some consider Jesus to be an avatar or a *sadhu *and point out similarities between Krishna and Jesus’ teachings. Paramahansa Yogananda, a guru, taught that Jesus was the reincarnation of Elisha and a student of John the Baptist, the reincarnation of Elijah. Some Buddhists, including Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, regard Jesus as a bodhisattva who dedicated his life to the welfare of people. The New Age movement entertains a wide variety of views on Jesus. Theosophists, from whom many New Age teachings originated, refer to Jesus as the Master Jesus and believe that Christ, after various incarnations, occupied the body of Jesus. **Scientologists **recognize Jesus (along with other religious figures such as Zoroaster, Muhammad, and Buddha) as part of their “religious heritage”.

– en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

In the **Scientology **view the teachings of Jesus are included among belief systems comprising those “earlier forms”. Jesus is classified as below the level of Operating Thetan, but as a “shade above” the Scientology state of “Clear”.

In Raëlism, Jesus and several other religious figures are considered prophets sent by an extraterrestrial race called the Elohim. Followers of **Religious Science **consider Jesus to be a teacher of Science of Mind principles, but reject his unique divinity, arguing that every person is equally divine.

– en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_perspectives_on_Jesus

**Mandaeans **maintain that Jesus was a mšiha kdaba “false messiah” who perverted the teachings entrusted to him by John [the Baptist]…Likewise, the Mandaeans believe that Abraham and Moses were false prophets, but recognize other prophetic figures from the Abrahamic traditions, such as Adam, his sons Hibil (Abel) and Šitil (Seth), and his grandson Anuš (Enosh), as well as Nuh (Noah), his son Sam (Shem) and his son Ram (Aram). The latter three they consider to be their direct ancestors. Mandaeans consider the holy spirit that is known as Ruha d-Qudsha in the Talmud and Bible to be an evil being.

– en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

 

[John_Lazarus]

Also with a differing view on Jesus would be the non-Trinitarian faiths, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God, International and the United Church of God.

–en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Trinitarian

 

[SteveVH]

Hm, so trying to understand why Christians believe what they believe is of no interest to non-believers?

That is not what I have said. I am only speaking of those who claim that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet and a good man, especially those who, as you say, have studied the Christian Scriptures. For those who have not studied the Scriptures any opinion, for or against, is pure speculation. For those who have studied, and believe Jesus actually walked the earth, to conclude that he is only a prophet and a good man requires ignoring what he claimed about himself.

Jesus is either the Son of God or he is not. One who would claim to be the Son of God, but was not, as I have said, is either a liar or delusional, unless you have another alternative. A man who would lie is not a good man. One who is delusional is not a prophet.

 

[MartinJordan]

For those who have studied, and believe Jesus actually walked the earth, to conclude that he is only a prophet and a good man requires ignoring what he claimed about himself.

Yep. This includes Muslims. Their prophet said to study Christian scriptures if they have any doubts. I don’t see them not listening to what he had said, yet it comes to the point where it suddenly becomes “excess” by Christians.

Qur'an 4:171  

O people of the Book! commit no** excesses** in your religion: nor say of Allah taught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary **was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles.** Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) **above having a son**. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

(Islam Rhetoric 101)

Odd to accept as Christ Jesus, yet it becomes excess

MJ

 

[BornInMarch]

That is not what I have said. I am only speaking of those who claim that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet and a good man, especially those who, as you say, have studied the Christian Scriptures. For those who have not studied the Scriptures any opinion, for or against, is pure speculation. For those who have studied, and believe Jesus actually walked the earth, to conclude that he is only a prophet and a good man requires ignoring what he claimed about himself.

Jesus is either the Son of God or he is not. One who would claim to be the Son of God, but was not, as I have said, is either a liar or delusional, unless you have another alternative. A man who would lie is not a good man. One who is delusional is not a prophet.

This depends on whether or not the person reading this actually took all of it at face value. Muslims, for example, believe that Jesus never claimed to be the son of God to begin with. Therefore, it is possible to believe that he is just a prophet (like Muslims do) or to believe that he is just a wise rabbi (like some jews do).

This variance in interpretation of scripture is because not everyone is reading the same scripture. In Christendom alone something as simple as the amount of books in the bible can vary depending on denomination; Protestants only use sixty six books while he Ethiopian Orthodox church uses eighty one books.

So this should clear up confusion.

P.S. I feel like it should be a given but could we all at least try to be respectful?

 

[Kaninchen]

That is not what I have said. I am only speaking of those who claim that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet and a good man, especially those who, as you say, have studied the Christian Scriptures. For those who have not studied the Scriptures any opinion, for or against, is pure speculation. For those who have studied, and believe Jesus actually walked the earth, to conclude that he is only a prophet and a good man requires ignoring what he claimed about himself.

Jesus is either the Son of God or he is not. One who would claim to be the Son of God, but was not, as I have said, is either a liar or delusional, unless you have another alternative. A man who would lie is not a good man. One who is delusional is not a prophet.

I’m sorry but you really are missing the point - if I read Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar, I know that it’s a work of fiction somewhat based on the life of a real person, I do not have to believe that every word that comes out of Caesar’s mouth in the play is a direct quote from the original.

When you read the New Testament, the descriptions, dialogues etc are, for you, ‘true’ and the trilemma makes sense, when I read the New Testament, I don’t believe anything of the sort and the trilemma is the equivalent of discussing something said in a particular scene in the play Julius Caesar.