How do other religions view Jesus?

[TypesAndShadows]

In Catholic theology, God is knowable through His attributes. Unknowable in His essence.

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Indeed not

This is incorrect

God is knowable because we know who he is. We know him the same way I know my friends and parents. I do not know their “attributes” or their “essence”: I know them.

That we do not understand his essence nor all his attributes nor how all of this works together does not change that we know him as a person.

Islam would, to the best of my knowledge as represented by everything that Muslims have ever spoken on this topic in my presence, absolutely disagree that we can know God as a person

The only way to make this work would be to completely change what Catholics mean when they say God is knowable to mean that they are saying you can know some things about him which is not at all what is meant.

Could you please confirm you understand this by writing, in your own words, what I have said I mean when I say God is knowable? Thank you.

 

[Servant19]

Indeed not

This is incorrect

God is knowable because we know who he is. We know him the same way I know my friends and parents. I do not know their “attributes” or their “essence”: I know them.

That we do not understand his essence nor all his attributes nor how all of this works together does not change that we know him as a person.

Islam would, to the best of my knowledge as represented by everything that Muslims have ever spoken on this topic in my presence, absolutely disagree that we can know God as a person

The only way to make this work would be to completely change what Catholics mean when they say God is knowable to mean that they are saying you can know some things about him which is not at all what is meant.

Could you please confirm you understand this by writing, in your own words, what I have said I mean when I say God is knowable? Thank you.

LOL

let me read what you wrote and I hope to answer your question…

maybe you prefer this emoticon instead…

 

[TypesAndShadows]

LOL

let me read what you wrote and I hope to answer your question…

maybe you prefer this emoticon instead…

Hahaha! I was never previously in a position to discover that there’s a limit on the number of smilies you can include in a post!

 

[Servant19]

Indeed not

This is incorrect

God is knowable because we know who he is. We know him the same way I know my friends and parents. I do not know their “attributes” or their “essence”: I know them.

That we do not understand his essence nor all his attributes nor how all of this works together does not change that we know him as a person.

Islam would, to the best of my knowledge as represented by everything that Muslims have ever spoken on this topic in my presence, absolutely disagree that we can know God as a person

The only way to make this work would be to completely change what Catholics mean when they say God is knowable to mean that they are saying you can know some things about him which is not at all what is meant.

Could you please confirm you understand this by writing, in your own words, what I have said I mean when I say God is knowable? Thank you.

Sure, so you are saying that because God became man, you can “know” God like you would know a friend. But God did not become man in Muhammad’s case, so Muslims can never know God, correct?

Ok I studied what you wrote here, twice actually, and I have come to the conclusion that your definition of the word “know” is different to the Islamic definition of the same word.

Secondly, God is not a human body. Are you telling me that whenever Jesus referred to Himself as being one with the Father, He was referring to His human aspect?

If no, then one cannot “know” God by “knowing” the human Jesus.

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[Servant19]

Hahaha! I was never previously in a position to discover that there’s a limit on the number of smilies you can include in a post!

Yes, I had to delete one of your smilies to include my “new improved” smilie

LOL

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[TypesAndShadows]

Sure, so you are saying that because God became man, you can “know” God like you would know a friend. But God did not become man in Muhammad’s case, so Muslims can never know God, correct?

Ok I studied what you wrote here, twice actually, and I have come to the conclusion that your definition of the word “know” is different to the Islamic definition of the same word.

Secondly, God is not a human body. Are you telling me that whenever Jesus referred to Himself as being one with the Father, He was referring to His human aspect?

If no, then one cannot “know” God by “knowing” the human Jesus.

.

Well we are speaking English, and dealing with the vagaries of English: I have no idea what introducing the equivalent words in Latin, Greek and Arabic would do to this discussion, being unqualified, but I suspect this is more of an English language issue than an issue of a Muslim meaning of an English word versus a Catholic meaning.

Based on my interactions with Muslims, I would say that they object to the idea that God is a person in a way that would imply he can be known at all in the way I know a friend. Their objection to the idea that God could become Man is rooted in this different conception of God, rather than it working the other way around. However, this is not an area I am qualified in, and is simply based on interactions: I am very willing to be corrected by a Muslim on this. Mostly I would say that you understand what I am saying.

The Traditional view of Jesus, who he was, is huge (and extremely relevant to this thread). Are you familiar with the various creeds, with the phrase “hypostatic union”, and with the general teachings on the Trinity? I’m not sure where you are, and so where to pitch this, but in short Christians believe that Jesus is fully God and fully Man, and that to know Jesus is indeed to know God. John 14 is extremely relevant to this, as Jesus expects Philip to know him, and to realise that having seen Jesus he has seen God.

 

[Servant19]

Well we are speaking English, and dealing with the vagaries of English: I have no idea what introducing the equivalent words in Latin, Greek and Arabic would do to this discussion, being unqualified, but I suspect this is more of an English language issue than an issue of a Muslim meaning of an English word versus a Catholic meaning.

Based on my interactions with Muslims, I would say that they object to the idea that God is a person in a way that would imply he can be known at all in the way I know a friend. Their objection to the idea that God could become Man is rooted in this different conception of God, rather than it working the other way around. However, this is not an area I am qualified in, and is simply based on interactions: I am very willing to be corrected by a Muslim on this. Mostly I would say that you understand what I am saying.

The Traditional view of Jesus, who he was, is huge (and extremely relevant to this thread). Are you familiar with the various creeds, with the phrase “hypostatic union”, and with the general teachings on the Trinity? I’m not sure where you are, and so where to pitch this, but in short Christians believe that Jesus is fully God and fully Man, and that to know Jesus is indeed to know God. John 14 is extremely relevant to this, as Jesus expects Philip to know him, and to realise that having seen Jesus he has seen God.

Well dear friend, my understanding of Islam is this.

When they say that one cannot “know” God, they are essentially saying this:

catholictreasury.info/trinity.php

The Nature of God

Our natural knowledge of God in this world is not an immediate, intuitive cognition, but a mediate, abstractive knowledge, because it is attained through the knowledge of creatures. (Sent. certa.)
Our knowledge of God here below is not proper (cognition propria) but analogical (cognition analoga or analogica). (Sent. certa.
The Blessed in Heaven possess an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence. (De Fide)
The Immediate Vision of God transcends the natural power of cognition of the human soul, and is therefore supernatural. (De Fide)
The soul, for the Immediate Vision of God, requires the Light of Glory. (De Fide D 475.)
God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De Fide)

Maybe a Muslim can chip in and tell us if the above teachings of Catholicism is contradictory to Islamic teaching or not?





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[TypesAndShadows]

A Muslim commenting on that how possible it is to have knowledge of God in that way, as well as how possible it is to know God as a person, would indeed be interesting.

Do you feel I have adequately explained why I, and Catholic teaching in general, diverge from your reasoning below?

Secondly, God is not a human body. Are you telling me that whenever Jesus referred to Himself as being one with the Father, He was referring to His human aspect?

If no, then one cannot “know” God by “knowing” the human Jesus.

.

 

[otterman]

Again, dear friend, this contradicts Catholic teaching which clearly and categorically states that the Plan of Salvation includes Muslims, who together with Catholics worship the One God.

I do not believe that the Church ever mentions a “Different” Divine God worshipped by Muslims.

You can believe what you like, and as TypesandShadows would like me to honour your beliefs for what you believe (which I’m happy to) but this belief does not align with Catholic Teaching…

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The plan of salvation does indeed include Muslims as they are part of humanity, but the Islamic concept of God will not allow it to be the same as the Bible God.

The God of the Quran is the god most familiar to Mohammed, and Mohammed was given a different message from this god to what the Bible teaches.

Allah is not a Trinity (4:171; 5:73; 5:116); he is a Father to no one (5:18; 19:88-93; 21:26); he has no love for unbelievers (3:32)…

Mohammed’s ways and example did not comply with the Bible Gods Commands, which command to “love your neighbour as yourself” and use spiritual combat to fight the forces of evil.

Mohammed instead said he had been called to use physical combat to bring people into submission to worship Allah alone, and as Mohammed is said to be mankind’s role model, Muslims must emulate Mohammed in all aspects of their lives.

Sahih Bukhari
Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.​

Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Mohammed claimed to have received a revelation from an angel calling itself Gabriel, who commanded Mohammed to recite/read three times, to such an extent that he was made to feel suicidal.
But this is supposedly the same angel who gave a message to Mary,and told her first not to be afraid (as all Bible Angels do), before announcing to her she was to become the mother of Jesus, who would be "called the Son of the Most High God “which Allah rejects.

Galatians 1:6-9 and John 1:6-11 give warnings about anyone who comes with a different message to what has been given already by all Bible prophets

The Bible focuses on repentance of sin, this was what the prophets repeatedly told their listeners, they also prophesied the Messiah, as did John the Baptist, who baptised Jesus, mentioned by name in the Quran, but it is not revealed why he was called to baptise anyone, even though he warrants a mention in the Quran.

It can be deduced by these fundamental differences, that Christian doctrine itself cannot agree with the claim that the Bible God is one and the same as the Islamic god Allah, neither can Quranic claims,nor Mohammed’s example to humanity.

 

[SteveVH]

We can only know what has been revealed to us. If we could ever possess complete knowledge of God’s essence we would be equal to God. We will gaze upon him in eternal wonder and awe when we see him “face to face”. We will even share in the very life of the Father, Son and Holy spirit as adopted children of God. But we will never completely comprehend the Incomprehensible.

But what has been revealed by Christ certainly gives us knowledge of God that we would not otherwise possess and knowledge that non-Christians do not possess. We know that God’s love for us, his creatures, is beyond measure. That God has given his own life, that we might have eternal life. That God loves us as our Father and not as some distant “master”. We know that the essence of God is Love, even if we cannot comprehend such Love. There is something very comforting to me in knowing that God’s love is beyond anything I can ever fathom.

Steve

 

[MartinJordan]

If we had had the original text of Gospels then we would see what have been changed. I said Muslims think. That thought occured in that way: Jewish and Christian clerics could know and find the evidences of prophethood on Mohammed at that time. There are many samples for that issue. Jews expected that the last prophet would come from Jews as usual. But the last prophet come from among the unimportant folk(Arabs) at that time. So they might changed verses which point to last prophet.

You still failed to even give an example from Islamic teaching where Christian Scripture was change. This proves that you are not serious to listen nor understand why Christians believe what we believe. Plus there is no reason for us to change scripture when we are called to love God with all our heart, soul and strength. That would mean not just reading scripture but also prayer and fellowship worshipping God and by that meaning through Jesus only we can go to the Father. We’ve been championing Our Lord Jesus Christ for 2000 years and will continue to do so because we love God with all our Heart Mind and Soul. God is an awesome God. One and True.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

If we had had the original text of Gospels then we would see what have been changed. I said Muslims think.

I want to reiterate the belief following commandment 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Note MIND. We are called to use our minds without corruption,thus ensure Scripture is followed without changing Truth. So Muslims must stop this assumption of changing scripture. Jesus never changed from prophet alone but he as God in flesh when he walked the earth.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

A Muslim commenting on that how possible it is to have knowledge of God in that way, as well as how possible it is to know God as a person, would indeed be interesting.

Do you feel I have adequately explained why I, and Catholic teaching in general, diverge from your reasoning below?

Dear friend, I’m glad you are having fun…

Where in this:

The Nature of God

Our natural knowledge of God in this world is not an immediate, intuitive cognition, but a mediate, abstractive knowledge, because it is attained through the knowledge of creatures. (Sent. certa.)
Our knowledge of God here below is not proper (cognition propria) but analogical (cognition analoga or analogica). (Sent. certa.
The Blessed in Heaven possess an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence. (De Fide)
The Immediate Vision of God transcends the natural power of cognition of the human soul, and is therefore supernatural. (De Fide)
The soul, for the Immediate Vision of God, requires the Light of Glory. (De Fide D 475.)
God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De Fide)

does it talk about:

how possible it is to know God as a person,

???

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[Servant19]

The plan of salvation does indeed include Muslims as they are part of humanity, but the Islamic concept of God will not allow it to be the same as the Bible God.

Dear friend, woah, woah…stop right there

Let us examine thoroughly what the Church states on this matter shall we?

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

“together with us”…Muslims are seen by the Church as united in this quest for God

“one” God…there is no mention of the Bible God being different to the Quranic God.

You can conclude with man-made interpretations as much as you wish but the Church does not agree with you …

Lumen Gentium, (DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH), POPE PAUL VI, November 21, 1964, section 16:

16. ... But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, **along with us adore the one and merciful God**, who on the last day will judge mankind.

It cannot be clearer dear friend…

NOSTRA AETATE, (DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS), POPE PAUL VI, October 28, 1965, section 3:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. **They adore the one God**, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

There again, is no vagueness here. Muslims adore the “One God”…no mention of two Gods…

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[TypesAndShadows]

Dear friend, I’m glad you are having fun…

Where in this:

does it talk about:

???

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It doesn’t especially talk about knowing God as a person, which is why that whole thing about understanding wasn’t really a relevant thing to bring up when Otterman was talking about knowing God, as opposed to understanding God or knowing about God, which is why there was so much confusion when you did that. But I thought we had settled this. You had misunderstood what it means to know someone.

But could I ask you again, please, to confirm whether my explanation of how Catholics view Jesus has made it sufficiently clear to you why knowing Jesus is indeed the same thing as knowing God from our perspective, and why “God isn’t a human body, so knowing the human aspect of Jesus doesn’t let you know God” suggests a view of Jesus that is alien to traditional Christianity?

 

[Servant19]

It doesn’t especially talk about knowing God as a person, which is why that whole thing about understanding wasn’t really a relevant thing to bring up when Otterman was talking about knowing God, as opposed to understanding God or knowing about God, which is why there was so much confusion when you did that. But I thought we had settled this. You had misunderstood what it means to know someone.

But could I ask you again, please, to confirm whether my explanation of how Catholics view Jesus has made it sufficiently clear to you why knowing Jesus is indeed the same thing as knowing God from our perspective, and why “God isn’t a human body, so knowing the human aspect of Jesus doesn’t let you know God” suggests a view of Jesus that is alien to traditional Christianity?

Theologically, the attribute of “knowledge” is not summarised in the sentence:

“Oh yes, I know him, he’s my friend”

I think one must be careful not to whittle down deep theologies into our finite understandings.

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[Servant19]

But could I ask you again, please, to confirm whether my explanation of how Catholics view Jesus has made it sufficiently clear to you why knowing Jesus is indeed the same thing as knowing God from our perspective, and why “God isn’t a human body, so knowing the human aspect of Jesus doesn’t let you know God” suggests a view of Jesus that is alien to traditional Christianity?

So you’re saying that when you say you know God, it actually is a knowledge of the Divine aspect of Jesus???

What do you know about the Word, that Muslims do not know?

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[otterman]

Dear friend, woah, woah…stop right there

Let us examine thoroughly what the Church states on this matter shall we?

“together with us”…Muslims are seen by the Church as united in this quest for God

“one” God…there is no mention of the Bible God being different to the Quranic God.

You can conclude with man-made interpretations as much as you wish but the Church does not agree with you …

It cannot be clearer dear friend…

There again, is no vagueness here. Muslims adore the “One God”…no mention of two Gods…

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I am familiar with the Catholic stance on this, but as pointed out, all evidence, plus Christian and Islamic doctrine does not allow the Bible God to be one and the same as the Islamic god Allah.

 

[Servant19]

I am familiar with the Catholic stance on this, but as pointed out, all evidence, plus Christian and Islamic doctrine does not allow the Bible God to be one and the same as the Islamic god Allah.

So effectively, you are telling the Church that it is wrong…



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[otterman]

So effectively, you are telling the Church that it is wrong…



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The Church is wrong in its assumption that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Although Muslims believe they worship the same creator god, its message, teachings, role models example to humanity,etc are diametrically opposed to the Bible God commands, and message to humanity.