How do protestants explain history

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=Topper17;11730149]
I am not extending anything. The meaning of the Formula of Concord leaves absolutely no doubt – that is that the popes ‘AND their adherents’ bear the ‘marks of Antichrist’. If you have an ‘alternate’ way to interpret that particular text, please give it a shot and we can all take a look and make a determination.
Obviously, the teachings of the BoC do leave some doubt, since you have developed such an entirely incorrect perception of it. My apologies for that, and here’s hoping to alleviate you of any misunderstandings.
Let me first say that not Ben, nor I, nor any Lutheran has to “give it a shot” so “we can make a determination”. The determinations have already been made by*** Lutherans***. Just as we don’t get to make a determination about Catholic teaching, doctrine or not, you don’t get to make a determination, either, regarding our teachings. You can have an opinion whether or not our teachings are right or wrong, but not what our teachings are.
39] Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents.
59] But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity [in the sight of all the world and to the injury of all descendants].”
I very much appreciate that you recognize that this accusation, made in official Lutheran teaching, is false. However, your disagreement with the Formula of Concord does not change the fact that it is official Lutheran doctrine.
Just to circumvent your continued misunderstanding of our teaching, which again I apologize for, I will provide you this:
cyberbrethren.com/2008/07/27/the-papacy%E2%80%94why-the-lutheran-confessions-assert-it-is-antichrist/
From the link:
Let us be very clear what we are not saying with this assertion.
We are by no means suggesting that within the Roman Catholic Church there are no Christians, or that everything taught and heard in Roman Catholic congregations is anti-Christian.
No, quite the opposite is the case. It is precisely because we recognize the Gospel is preached, taught and heard in the Church of Rome, and that the Sacraments are validly administered, that we are all the more concerned to point out as clearly as we can what, precisely, in the Roman Church runs so deeply contrary to the Gospel. That is the
animating passion in this article in the Smalcald Articles: the doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ, alone. But that there are dear Christians in the Roman Church is undeniably true!
Let it be clear to all readers, Lutherans consider Catholics to be our Christian siblings, even though we disagree with some, perhaps one could say a few, of your teachings.
We consider your popes to be good Christian men, your priests to be validly ordained, and your sacraments to be valid.
We consider some of the teachings of the papacy to be anti or opposed to Christ. At the same time, Catholics consider some of our teachings opposed to Christ. Hence our division. But both communions consider members of the other to be Christian, siblings in Baptism. Members of either communion that say otherwise are either misinformed, or are being disingenuous.
So, I guess by your response you agree that there is no possibility that the Lutherans will withdraw or renounce even those wild accusations about the papacy and it’s adherents bearing the mark of antichrist? Should we Catholics be expected consider a real and meaningful communion with Lutherans without a retraction of those statements? The problem I think is that Lutheranism recognizes the retraction of ANY of their confessional statements as being an extremely slippery slope. Once even one statement is retracted, then the question would have to be asked as to the ‘nature’ of the ‘authority’ of all the rest.
Also in the article, quoted from the LCMS:
To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.
The statement in the BoC regarding the papacy are historically conditioned. We recognize that change can come, agreements reached, and in the same way that the anathamas of Trent against us would be lifted were we to come to reconciliation, the charge of anti-Christ against the teachings of the papacy would be lifted, as well.

Jon
 
Would you say your views are common JonNC? That is how you regard the Catholics (with much charity it seems)? Because I’ve seen some pretty harsh things said of Rome by Lutherans old and today.
 
Concerning the Sabbath: The Law was given to lead Israel to Christ. The ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jews Sabbath and announces mans eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ. first of all Catholic’s are not celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday. WE celebrate the Lord’s day which the Sabbath points to.
Constantine was a pagan and was not baptized till he was on his deathbed. There is more information in the books The First Thousand years by Robert Louis Wilken and Christianity A Global History by David Chidester which are good reads for anyone interested in the History of Christianity.
 
You’re kidding right?? The Jewish Sabbath is not our Sunday. You must know that Jesus and the Apostles were Jews?

Sunday Sabbath only came about after Constantine.

The point of this whole conversation is that the Hebrew Sabbath was Saturday prior to the time of Constantine and afterwards it was Sunday, and as Constantine was by all historical records known to be a pagan (worshipper of the sun god), it’s no surprise he chose to name his new rest day, Sunday.

I’m sorry if it doesn’t sit well. I was rather upset myself when I learned of it for the first time as I had long thought that Constantine was a champion of the faith.
So your refutations are:

I should be a politician.
My Scripture quotes are weak
My historical evidence is weak
My sources are irrelevant to you
I lost the argument and I resort to call you calling me names as being childish
I am kidding
Allegedly your “proof” doesn’t sit well with me, even when you don’t have any.

When:

You are unable to counter a single verse I have provided.
You are unable to disprove the validity of my historical sources
You are unable to support 2 of your own sources after being confronted with the fact that they don’t support your point
You have failed misserably to present any evidence

:cool:
 
Would you say your views are common JonNC? That is how you regard the Catholics (with much charity it seems)? Because I’ve seen some pretty harsh things said of Rome by Lutherans old and today.
There have been harsh things said in history, on both sides. And there are still those who speak harshly today, on both sides. But yes, I believe that there continues to be a growing respect for the Catholic Church within pan-Lutheranism.
#There are Lutherans within the LWF that continue to seek Eucharistic hospitality between our communions, leading up to 2017.
#There are Lutherans in the ILC now involved in ongoing dialogue with Rome, as we see on moral issues particularly a uniformity in our beliefs that in this time move us together.

At least among confessional Lutherans, we see a closer relationship about the sacraments with the Catholic Church than almost any other western communion, with the possible exception of Anglicanism.​

Pope John Paul II, and particularly Benedict XVI are held in very high regard, one might even say fondly, among most Lutherans.​

The fact is, regardless of what the polemicists on either side say, there has been since Vatican II a changing dynamic between our communions. And I pray it continues.

Jon
 
I sometimes find it troublesome that some Christians make a big deal out of the significance of names, such as the days of the week. Upon further investigation it would appear this is an American protestant trait derived from the notion that everyone in the world speaks English. 🙂
Wait for Easter.
 
Hi Jon,

Thanks for your response.
Topper,
I’m not trying to “prove” anything.
It would seem that you actually were. If you weren’t, you wouldn’t have used the term ‘undeniable’. Maybe we could get past our current dilemma with the simple understanding that your use of the term ‘undeniable’ was ‘unfortunate’ and inaccurate. After all, you have not been able to support that claim with anything specific at all, much less anything that is ‘undeniable’.
You asked the question with Lutheran synods have AS. I told you about the Scandinavian churches.
First of all, if the history of the Lutheran Scandinavian Churches prove anything it is not something which is helpful to the reputation of Lutheranism. As an example, in the mid-16th century, Catholicism was outlawed in Sweden, and quite frankly, Christianity there has gone downhill ever since, to the point where it exists almost entirely in name only today. That is the result of a culture and society which has had no Catholic influence for several hundred years and has been ‘guided’ by Salvation by Faith Alone. Pick any metric; cohabitation, out of wedlock birth rate, abortion rate, and divorce rate – any criteria by which the moral condition of a culture could be measured and there you will find Sweden at the very lowest, and in fact, shocking levels. Although more than 90% of Swedes consider themselves to be “Lutheran” (it is the state run religion), the average person goes to church only once a year, which means of course that some go a lot and the VAST majority don’t go at all. If by some watered down definition Lutherans believe they can claim Apostolic Succession in Sweden, it sure has not been helpful to Christianity.
The ELCA also claims it through Anglican lines, as do the Provoo communion churches mostly in northern Europe. The lines are there and undeniable.
You keep using the term undeniable and yet will not submit your justification for general review and scrutiny. Again – IF it is so undeniable, you should be happy to provide it.

As for the ELCA claims – you can’t just order up a serving of Apostolic Succession like you would Chinese food. It is much more meaningful than that. You can’t ‘get it’ by signing some kind of agreement with someone who ‘has it’. Again, I am very interested in specifically and exactly HOW this AS was supposedly ‘transferred’ from the Anglican lines to the ELCA. If the lines are there and are undeniable, then that means that they actually exist on paper and are available for review. Why not simply provide them as requested? My guess is that when and if you actually provide those specifics, it won’t be difficult to dismiss that claim.
OTOH, I am making no claim regarding whether or not the Catholic church accepts or recognizes them, mainly because the CC has never said one way or another AFAIK, like they have with Anglican lines. My suspicion is they would pronounce them at least illicit, but most likely invalid. That wouldn’t mean the succession is not there, but only that the CC doesn’t recognize them as valid (or licit).
Of course you are right – the Catholic Church does not accept the claims of Apostolic Succession from the Reformation churches. You contend that the lineage is there, but don’t seem to be able to document it.
The issue is not worth a significant amount of time, because, were our communions to be that close to reconciliation, the issue of AS would be resolved. Lutheranism is not opposed to AS. In fact, we are in favor of it. Our confessions say so.
I would suggest that it would be worth the time IF you had the ‘undeniable’ lineage you claim. Also, being in favor of “it” is potentially a whole lot different than actually possessing it. I take it by your omission that the LCMS does not claim to have Apostolic Succession. Is that true?
But here is the current state of affairs, as I see them. Lutherans recognize Catholic orders.
Therefore, we recognize the validity of your sacraments (something we wouldn’t do if we thought the CC was un-Christian, as you falsely accuse us in a previous post) The Catholic Church does not recognize our presbyter orders, and probably would not recognize the orders some Lutherans have through AS. While we would be most grateful and even joyful if the CC recognized our orders as we do yours, it isn’t something we are needing. We have certain and complete knowledge in our orders, and our sacraments either way.
Ok, so if Lutherans accept the Catholic Church as a Christian institution, then how, specifically and exactly, are we supposed to ‘interpret’ those ugly statements in the B of C that I posted? They are after all, amazingly self-explanatory, clear as a bell. Are you possibly saying that they were ONCE, meaning some time ago, an accurate portrayal of Lutheran sentiment, and that at some more recent time, Lutheranism changed it’s position?

Also, it appears to me that we are having the typical Lutheran/Catholic problem with definitions. As you know, Luther changed the definition of several very important terms including ‘Church’, ‘gospel’, and ‘grace’. It seems to me that the way that you are using the term “Apostolic Succession” is very watered down by comparison with the Catholic sense of the word. This will be shown much more clearly when we review the teachings of the Early Church Fathers on the subject and also when we explore the significance and intent behind the concept of AS.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
 
=Topper17;11732261]
It would seem that you actually were. If you weren’t, you wouldn’t have used the term ‘undeniable’. Maybe we could get past our current dilemma with the simple understanding that your use of the term ‘undeniable’ was ‘unfortunate’ and inaccurate. After all, you have not been able to support that claim with anything specific at all, much less anything that is ‘undeniable’.
I provided sources that show that they have AS. That you deny it is irrelevant. I am not claiming anything. The sources show it. If you can show where they say the lines are broken, ok. I answered your question.
First of all, if the history of the Lutheran Scandinavian Churches prove anything it is not something which is helpful to the reputation of Lutheranism. As an example, in the mid-16th century, Catholicism was outlawed in Sweden, and quite frankly, Christianity there has gone downhill ever since, to the point where it exists almost entirely in name only today. That is the result of a culture and society which has had no Catholic influence for several hundred years and has been ‘guided’ by Salvation by Faith Alone. Pick any metric; cohabitation, out of wedlock birth rate, abortion rate, and divorce rate – any criteria by which the moral condition of a culture could be measured and there you will find Sweden at the very lowest, and in fact, shocking levels. Although more than 90% of Swedes consider themselves to be “Lutheran” (it is the state run religion), the average person goes to church only once a year, which means of course that some go a lot and the VAST majority don’t go at all. If by some watered down definition Lutherans believe they can claim Apostolic Succession in Sweden, it sure has not been helpful to Christianity.
Not relevant. There are the same problems in historically Catholic countries. If your point is that, as Christians, we have not done well in defending the morals taught by your communion and my synod, I agree. Further, I am not even going to defend the track that Lutheranism has taken in Sweden. They have brought into question the validity of the ordinations by ordaining women, but even that is irrelevant. You asked which Lutheran synods can show AS, and I accurately answered your question.
You keep using the term undeniable and yet will not submit your justification for general review and scrutiny. Again – IF it is so undeniable, you should be happy to provide it.
And so it is. I provided sources.
As for the ELCA claims – you can’t just order up a serving of Apostolic Succession like you would Chinese food. It is much more meaningful than that. You can’t ‘get it’ by signing some kind of agreement with someone who ‘has it’. Again, I am very interested in specifically and exactly HOW this AS was supposedly ‘transferred’ from the Anglican lines to the ELCA. If the lines are there and are undeniable, then that means that they actually exist on paper and are available for review. Why not simply provide them as requested? My guess is that when and if you actually provide those specifics, it won’t be difficult to dismiss that claim.
I clearly said earlier, the Catholic view of it notwithstanding. This comes under the Catholic view. I know quite well that the Vatican would probably not approve them. I said so already. Further, the ELCA, like the Church of Sweden, has gone down the path of women’s ordination. It calls into question their validity, but it does not disprove that the line of succession is there.
I don’t have the lines, nor am I willing to look them up for you. I have not asked you to look up and prove lines all the back to St. Peter, and the lines of very bishop. It doesn’t matter. If you wish to look up the lines of any communion, be my guest.
You asked which Lutheran communions have AS. I answered your question. The LCMS, OTOH, has not been willing to venture into ordination agreements with some of these synods or the Anglican Church because of the issues I have raised. And like some Catholic priests of the past, we are certain that presbyter ordination is valid, the Catholic view notwithstanding.
Of course you are right – the Catholic Church does not accept the claims of Apostolic Succession from the Reformation churches. You contend that the lineage is there, but don’t seem to be able to document it.
Don’t have to. I am not part of their synod.
I would suggest that it would be worth the time IF you had the ‘undeniable’ lineage you claim
Tim, you know that what you suggest doesn’t influence me much. If you find someone who is of the Swedish Church, you can probably get information about that from them.

continued
 
Also, being in favor of “it” is potentially a whole lot different than actually possessing it. I take it by your omission that the LCMS does not claim to have Apostolic Succession. Is that true?
Answered. And the confessions address the issue.
Ok, so if Lutherans accept the Catholic Church as a Christian institution, then how, specifically and exactly, are we supposed to ‘interpret’ those ugly statements in the B of C that I posted?
I provided a link in a recent post that should help you understand. Let’s remember that the anathamas found in Trent are pretty ugly, too. It seemed to be fairly prevalent in those days, but those days were long ago.
They are after all, amazingly self-explanatory, clear as a bell. Are you possibly saying that they were ONCE, meaning some time ago, an accurate portrayal of Lutheran sentiment, and that at some more recent time, Lutheranism changed it’s position?
Obviously, not so clear as I thought, or someone as intelligent as you would not have such a gross misunderstanding. Hopefully, the link helped clear that up for you.
Also, it appears to me that we are having the typical Lutheran/Catholic problem with definitions. As you know, Luther changed the definition of several very important terms including ‘Church’, ‘gospel’, and ‘grace’. It seems to me that the way that you are using the term “Apostolic Succession” is very watered down by comparison with the Catholic sense of the word. This will be shown much more clearly when we review the teachings of the Early Church Fathers on the subject and also when we explore the significance and intent behind the concept of AS.
I know quite well the differences in viewpoints regarding AS that our communions have.
But if you intend to go into one of your Luther-bashing monologues, you’ve have to do it without me.

Jon
 
Catholicism also claims to be the one and only universal church so* how * are they different?:confused:
The Catholic church was founded by Jesus himself at the very beginning, and not by humans in the 18th century. The Catholic church goes by the teachings of Jesus himself and apostolic tradition which is also part of God’s word.

The Catholic church does not claim to be the world’s only Christians as the ‘churches of Christ’ does. We fully acknowledge there are other Christians and call them ‘separated brothers’.

Catholics do not claim to be the “one and only universal church”. But even if we did we would have much REAL historic evidence on our side, as opposed to the mistruths contained in the Great Controversy.

The church was founded by Jesus Christ in the first cdedntur
 
Catholicism also claims to be the one and only universal church so* how * are they different?:confused:
The Catholic church was founded by Jesus himself at the very beginning, and not by humans in the 19th century. The Catholic church goes by the teachings of Jesus himself and apostolic tradition which is also part of God’s word.

The Catholic church does not claim to be the world’s only Christians as the ‘churches of Christ’ does. We fully acknowledge there are other Christians and call them ‘separated brothers’.

Catholics do not claim to be the “one and only universal church”. But even if we did we would have much REAL historic evidence on our side, as opposed to the mistruths contained in the Great Controversy.

The church was founded by Jesus Christ in the first century and not by Alexander Campbell in the 20th or Ellen White in the 19th century.
 
Since we are approaching the Lords Day I would like to offer some history of perhaps joyful interest.

Questions: 1) Easy: Of what denomination was the first church (congregation and building) in the western hemisphere?
  1. A little harder: When and where did this happen?
Answers: 1) The church denomination was of course Catholic although denomination is more of a post reformation term.
  1. The church was built ca. 1000 AD at what is now named L’Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland. This site can be visited today where the building foundation of that church is still visible. Archeologists found on the floor of that church an Eskimo figurine about 2" long depicting a priest in a robe wearing a cross.forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=19362&stc=1&d=1393096794
Within 1000 years after the resurrection in (what became) America, Mass was observed, Communion Served, Eskimos participated and recorded their exposure to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
Would you say your views are common JonNC? That is how you regard the Catholics (with much charity it seems)? Because I’ve seen some pretty harsh things said of Rome by Lutherans old and today.
I would say that they aren’t even Jon’s views. They have always been that of Lutheranism, just as Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism long for reunion amidst the often venomous polemics that we sinful creatures are so quick to spew. All sides act with limited charity at times, but the reality, at least for us Lutherans, remains essentially as Melancthon stated in his subscription to the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope:
Regarding the Pope I hold that, if he would allow the Gospel, his superiority over the bishops which he has otherwise, is conceded to him by human right also by us, for the sake of the peace and general unity of those Christians who are also under him, and may be under him hereafter.
And oh can forget Luther’s unquestionable stance on defending the Sacraments?
I would rather drink pure blood with the Pope than mere wine with the Enthusiasts.
 
I would say that they aren’t even Jon’s views. They have always been that of Lutheranism, just as Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism long for reunion amidst the often venomous polemics that we sinful creatures are so quick to spew. All sides act with limited charity at times, but the reality, at least for us Lutherans, remains essentially as Melancthon stated in his subscription to the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope:

And oh can forget Luther’s unquestionable stance on defending the Sacraments?
Thanks, Don. I wanted to mention regarding Luther’s comment about drinking blood with the pope, I don’t know how much stronger evidence there is that even Luther acknowledges that the Catholic Church is Christian, since they do have to true blood of Christ. No nonChristian assembly does.

Jon
 
Do Lutherans really worship God in Sweden? 🤷

youtube.com/watch?v=3P6JL9Y7M3o
Yes there are faithful believers among Lutherans in Swede, but to a great extent their wonderful church has been infected by modernism and higher criticism just like many Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, and yes Catholics too. It is very sad because 150 years ago the Swedish Lutheran’s were doing wonderful scholarship, hymn writing, and missionary work. There are today faithful Christians in Sweden, it just doesn’t seem like there are proportionally as many.
 
Since we are approaching the Lords Day I would like to offer some history of perhaps joyful interest.

Questions: 1) Easy: Of what denomination was the first church (congregation and building) in the western hemisphere?
  1. A little harder: When and where did this happen?
Answers: 1) The church denomination was of course Catholic although denomination is more of a post reformation term.
  1. The church was built ca. 1000 AD at what is now named L’Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland. This site can be visited today where the building foundation of that church is still visible. Archeologists found on the floor of that church an Eskimo figurine about 2" long depicting a priest in a robe wearing a cross.forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=19362&stc=1&d=1393096794
Within 1000 years after the resurrection in (what became) America, Mass was observed, Communion Served, Eskimos participated and recorded their exposure to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I did not know this. Thanks!
 
I did not know this. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed that. Here’s a little more; approximately 50 years earlier Harald Bluetooth (Danes were wireless already back then;)) was converted and baptized by a missionary from Hamburg named Poppo. Bluetooth was the first king in Scandanavia to confess Jesus as Lord, he greatly (and rapidly) influenced the expansion of the Church. Just 50 years from Jelling, Denmark to America.
 
I find it fascinating that there are Lutherans today who profess to believe in Apostolic Succession, apparently recognizing the importance of the concept in maintaining Christian unity. What is ironic is that, as we will see, Luther himself was hardly a ‘fan’ of Apostolic Succession, and in fact in the early portion of his ‘Reforming career’, was opposed to anything other than the priesthood of all believers. In this belief, he obviously opposed any concept of Apostolic Succession, as is evidenced in the following tract of 1520.

To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation

Respecting the Reformation of the Christian Estate

“It follows then, that between layman and priests, princes and bishops, or as they call it, between spiritual and temporal persons, the only real difference is one of office and function, and not of estate: for they are all of the same Spiritual Estate, true priests, bishops and Popes, though their functions are not the same: just as among priests and monks every man has not the same functions. And this St. Paul says (Rom. xii.; 1 Cor. xii.) and St. Peter (1 Peter ii.); “we being many are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” Christ’s body is not double or twofold, one temporal, the other spiritual. He is one head, and he has one body.

We see then that just as those that we call spiritual, or priests, bishops or popes, do not differ from other Christians in any other or higher degree, but in that they are to be concerned with the word of God, and the sacraments—that being their work and office—in the same way the temporal authorities hold the sword and the rod in their hands to punish the wicked and to protect the good. A cobbler, a smith, a peasant, every man has the office and function of his calling, and yet all alike are consecrated priests and bishops, and every man in his office must be useful and beneficial to the rest, that so many kinds of work may all be united into one community: just as the members of the body all serve one another.

As for the unction by a pope or a bishop, tonsure, ordination, consecration, clothes differing from those of laymen—all this may make a hypocrite or an anointed puppet, but never a Christian, or a spiritual man. Thus we are all consecrated as priests by baptism, as St. Peter says: “Ye are a royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter ii. 9); and in the book of Revelations: “and hast made us unto our God, kings and priests.” (Rev. v. 10.) . . .

“…there were no higher and lesser states of perfection, but in every occupation man could live up to a vocation from God, or, put differently, every Christian believer as a priest……(Church) hierarchy hereby received a new meaning, but at the same time was attacked from the sacramental angle……Luther found no special priesthood in the New Testament, and in only three sacraments, baptism, the Lord’s Supper, a penance……….Once hierarchy and sacraments were thrown out as elements irrelevant to the Christian Church, and the faith of all believers was made the exclusive substance of religion, the reformation of Christianity could not be confined to the rebuilding of ecclesiastical institutions or to the mere reform of education; the whole of Christian life within the ‘respublica Christiania’ had to be reoriented.” Hajo Holborn, “A History of Modern Germany, The Reformation”, pg. 142-3

One has to wonder whether Luther would have embarked on his ‘reformation’ if he had realized going in how drastic the ‘reforms’ were going to end up being.

“In a third passage (in Address to the German Nobility) Luther gave additional ground, that the magistrates were fellow Christians sharing the priesthood of all believers, from which some modern historians have inferred that Luther would concede to the magistrate the role of Church reformer only if he were himself a convinced Christian, and then only in an emergency. But no such qualification is stated in this tract. The priesthood of all believers itself was made to rest upon the lower grade of faith implicit in the baptized infant.” Bainton, pg. 144

In other words, the only qualification for the ‘priesthood’ according to Luther was that one be baptized. Obviously this was a VERY watered down ‘set’ of requirements for the priesthood. And of course if the only definition of the priesthood was the priesthood of all believers, then of course there was no such thing as the office of Bishops who were to oversee the priests, priests of course like Luther. It goes without saying that if there was no such thing as bishops, then the concept of the Bishop of Rome as being over the other Bishops and also over the priests (like Luther), was illegitimate. Through this series of doctrinal ‘devices’, Luther had managed to develop a radical theology which resulted in his ‘authority’ to proclaim himself to be an authority without any superior, other than his own personal interpretations of Scripture. This ‘system’ worked out really well, UNTIL other people began to use the ‘rights’ that Luther had inadvertently gained for them.

When Luther revolted against the Church he had to justify that revolt. He did so by denying that there was any legitimate hierarchy at all. As the Holborn quote states, Luther ‘found no special priesthood in the NT”, which of course, makes no sense to anyone even slightly familiar with the NT.

The Catholic Church also teaches that all Christians are ‘priests’ but in a different manner than did Luther. The Church also teaches that in addition to the ‘priesthood of all believers’, there is ALSO an ordained priesthood, which includes an ordained hierarchy, with Bishops as overseers of the priests and the Bishop of Rome above the Bishops. Luther’s ‘priesthood of all believers’, at least initially in his Revolt, was the ONLY definition he held to regarding priests.
 
The last couple pages just screams, “Read Romans 14.”
Let me scream back…I think you need to go back and re-read the entire thread. I was not questioning the “everyday is a Sabbath” to those that are not bound by tradition. We were speaking about (and the topic of this thread), how protestants explain history.

The topic of my conversations was that the *original *Sabbath as celebrated by Jesus and the Apostles, would have been a Saturday but change was initiated by Constantine to Sundays by virtue of his pagan worship of the sun.
 
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