=Topper17;11730149]
Obviously, the teachings of the BoC do leave some doubt, since you have developed such an entirely incorrect perception of it. My apologies for that, and here’s hoping to alleviate you of any misunderstandings.I am not extending anything. The meaning of the Formula of Concord leaves absolutely no doubt – that is that the popes ‘AND their adherents’ bear the ‘marks of Antichrist’. If you have an ‘alternate’ way to interpret that particular text, please give it a shot and we can all take a look and make a determination.
Let me first say that not Ben, nor I, nor any Lutheran has to “give it a shot” so “we can make a determination”. The determinations have already been made by*** Lutherans***. Just as we don’t get to make a determination about Catholic teaching, doctrine or not, you don’t get to make a determination, either, regarding our teachings. You can have an opinion whether or not our teachings are right or wrong, but not what our teachings are.
39] Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents.
59] But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity [in the sight of all the world and to the injury of all descendants].”
Just to circumvent your continued misunderstanding of our teaching, which again I apologize for, I will provide you this:I very much appreciate that you recognize that this accusation, made in official Lutheran teaching, is false. However, your disagreement with the Formula of Concord does not change the fact that it is official Lutheran doctrine.
cyberbrethren.com/2008/07/27/the-papacy%E2%80%94why-the-lutheran-confessions-assert-it-is-antichrist/
From the link:
Let it be clear to all readers, Lutherans consider Catholics to be our Christian siblings, even though we disagree with some, perhaps one could say a few, of your teachings.Let us be very clear what we are not saying with this assertion.
We are by no means suggesting that within the Roman Catholic Church there are no Christians, or that everything taught and heard in Roman Catholic congregations is anti-Christian.
No, quite the opposite is the case. It is precisely because we recognize the Gospel is preached, taught and heard in the Church of Rome, and that the Sacraments are validly administered, that we are all the more concerned to point out as clearly as we can what, precisely, in the Roman Church runs so deeply contrary to the Gospel. That is the
animating passion in this article in the Smalcald Articles: the doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ, alone. But that there are dear Christians in the Roman Church is undeniably true!
We consider your popes to be good Christian men, your priests to be validly ordained, and your sacraments to be valid.
We consider some of the teachings of the papacy to be anti or opposed to Christ. At the same time, Catholics consider some of our teachings opposed to Christ. Hence our division. But both communions consider members of the other to be Christian, siblings in Baptism. Members of either communion that say otherwise are either misinformed, or are being disingenuous.
Also in the article, quoted from the LCMS:So, I guess by your response you agree that there is no possibility that the Lutherans will withdraw or renounce even those wild accusations about the papacy and it’s adherents bearing the mark of antichrist? Should we Catholics be expected consider a real and meaningful communion with Lutherans without a retraction of those statements? The problem I think is that Lutheranism recognizes the retraction of ANY of their confessional statements as being an extremely slippery slope. Once even one statement is retracted, then the question would have to be asked as to the ‘nature’ of the ‘authority’ of all the rest.
The statement in the BoC regarding the papacy are historically conditioned. We recognize that change can come, agreements reached, and in the same way that the anathamas of Trent against us would be lifted were we to come to reconciliation, the charge of anti-Christ against the teachings of the papacy would be lifted, as well.To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.
Jon