How do protestants explain the time between Christ and the reformation?

[steve-b]

I come from no lineage of Luther.I do not agree with every single thing Luther espoused to. When I because a Christian and then began reading the bible I had not been taught anything about Catholicism nor why the Protestant movement happened.

When I read the bible I do so humbly. I pray to God that he will show me the truth of scripture that I may understand. There is scripture that I do not fully understand and most likely never will.

You have your Catholicism this is true. Scripture teaches we are to come together in fellowship with other Christians. Scripture does not teach that Catholicism is salvation. Jesus is my salvation not Luther, or the Pope, or any denomination of an organized church.

History shows,

Jesus established His Church, the Catholic Church… AND the sacraments, on Peter and those in union with him, for our salvation. He gave His Church all His promises. AND The Holy Spirit doesn’t divide what Jesus established. That would be a complete contradiction of Jesus prayer and God is NOT conflicted within the Godhead. All this division you see out there… scripture condemns.

That will be true for all eternity

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

It’s comforting to know, scripture puts no pressure to successfully convince anyone of anything. I only have to give you the information you need to know. That’s it.

True.

But you have to do it in love Steve. “Love your neighbor…”. “Love your enemy…”.

If your goal is to “make disciples”, the success rate isn’t up to you, but how you do it is.

Did Jesus win every body He talked to? Nope! Was it because He gave a message that was too tough? No

People even denied Him to His face. Did it take away from His message, in that HE pulled back on scary stuff because heaven forbid, it might frustrate or be considered too tough to listen to? Nope!

I would suggest, if one won’t give the full message, without all the redactions, THAT isn’t love of neighbor as yourself.

 

[TULIPed]

in that HE pulled back on scary stuff because heaven forbid, it might frustrate or be considered too tough to listen to? Nope!

I’ll have to go check, but I’m pretty sure John Calvin said this - almost exactly - somewhere in his Institutes. Jonathan Edwards - you know “sinners in the hands of an angry God” - would also be impressed. I’m a huge fan of both.

Carry on.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I would challenge the validity of this statement.

Same way Arius challenged validity of Trinity or same way Copts challenged validity of Chalcedon, or even same way Catholics challenge validity of your position. Without authority there are only subjective opinions- as I said before, either relativism or Church with clear authority… nothing else solves this problem.

by comparing the teaching vs what was handed down to us we can certainly make informed conclusions on whether a specific teaching is faithful in its doctrinal substance.

We can make personal conclusions, ones that are subject to our fallible opinions and perceptions. That’s it kinda.

So let me ask you something. Is a Protestant baptism valid and efficacious (supposing it is Trinitarian)? Likewise is an Eastern Orthodox baptism valid and efficacious?

Baptism does not make someone fully in communion with Church- heretical baptism was considered valid (even those heresies you would not agree with) in Early Church, yet they were not included as part of Church in it’s Ecumenical Councils or other agreements (St. Augustine clearly considered heretics to be out of Church).

 

[whatistrue]

I’m not sure what you’re claiming.

I am claiming that your statement about @steve-b “assuming” was incorrect, both as to the content of the purported assumption and that there was even an assumption involved. Anything else you are having trouble interpreting?

 

[EZweber]

Just to reopen this can of worms,
Matthew 16:17-19 “Jesus said to him in reply, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’” The entire context, forwards and backwards, for two sentences, is Peter and his authority. I find it hard to believe that anyone can look the statement on binding and loosing in the face and not conclude that special authority is given here.
PS. I haven’t forgotten your question @SyCarl . I do have a verse in mind, but I haven’t had time to look for it.

 

[ReadTheBible]

If the ones who left thought Jesus was speaking figuratively, they wouldn’t have left.

This isn’t what scripture says. It says the ones who left didn’t believe from the beginning. They didn’t leave because of what Jesus had just told them concerning the bread of life. They left because they never believed.

schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

I’m sure you can consider me in schism with Catholicism but I gladly take that position. I would never partake in the ritual sacrifice of the mass because Hebrews tells us For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I do not pray to the dead.
I do not believe in Purgatory
I do not believe Catholicism is the one true Church
I do not believe that merits of the Saints can be applied to living souls
I do not believe that Mary is the Mediatrix or Queen of Heaven or sinless or co-redeemer
I do not believe in your Eucharist
I do not believe there’s any line of popes from the current all the way back to Peter
I do not believe Peter to be above any of the other 12 apostles
I do not believe in Indulgences for the dead
I do not believe in praying the rosary or any other repetitive prayer
I do not believe sacraments are necessary for salvation
I do not believe in confessing my sins to any man be it a Catholic Priest or otherwise
I do not believe the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator but do not believe in Christ
I do not believe in infant baptism
I do not believe in worshiping idols or kissing the feet of statutes
I do not believe in calling any man living or otherwise my spiritual Father
I believe all Christians are saints not special people Catholicism deems so
I do not believe a Bishop must be celibate
I do not believe infants are born with their parents sin upon conception and are damned spiritually unless baptized
I do not believe Catholicism has the sole right to interpret scripture
I do not believe in the Pope’s authority to change times and laws
I do not believe the Catholic traditions are on equal footing with scripture
I do not believe in holy water
I do not believe in papal infallibility
I do not believe in the assumption of Mary

I think that’s most of the reasons I don’t espouse to Catholicism. The reasons I do not believe in all those things is because they go against Scripture verbatim or at some point long after Christ died Catholicism simply made them up.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

in that HE pulled back on scary stuff because heaven forbid, it might frustrate or be considered too tough to listen to? Nope!

I’ll have to go check, but I’m pretty sure John Calvin said this - almost exactly - somewhere in his Institutes. Jonathan Edwards - you know “sinners in the hands of an angry God” - would also be impressed. I’m a huge fan of both.

Carry on.

We know Jesus is loving but tough

In His own words… especially all those who “say” Jesus is Lord and use scripture passages out of context

Mt 7: 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Concerning self disception
. Mt 7:21-23 RSVCE - Concerning Self-Deception - “Not - Bible Gateway

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If the ones who left thought Jesus was speaking figuratively, they wouldn’t have left.

This isn’t what scripture says. It says the ones who left didn’t believe from the beginning. They didn’t leave because of what Jesus had just told them concerning the bread of life. They left because they never believed.

schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

I’m sure you can consider me in schism with Catholicism but I gladly take that position. I would never partake in the ritual sacrifice of the mass because Hebrews tells us For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I do not pray to the dead.
I do not believe in Purgatory
I do not believe Catholicism is the one true Church
I do not believe that merits of the Saints can be applied to living souls
I do not believe that Mary is the Mediatrix or Queen of Heaven or sinless or co-redeemer
I do not believe in your Eucharist
I do not believe there’s any line of popes from the current all the way back to Peter
I do not believe Peter to be above any of the other 12 apostles
I do not believe in Indulgences for the dead
I do not believe in praying the rosary or any other repetitive prayer
I do not believe sacraments are necessary for salvation
I do not believe in confessing my sins to any man be it a Catholic Priest or otherwise
I do not believe the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator but do not believe in Christ
I do not believe in infant baptism
I do not believe in worshiping idols or kissing the feet of statutes
I do not believe in calling any man living or otherwise my spiritual Father
I believe all Christians are saints not special people Catholicism deems so
I do not believe a Bishop must be celibate
I do not believe infants are born with their parents sin upon conception and are damned spiritually unless baptized
I do not believe Catholicism has the sole right to interpret scripture
I do not believe in the Pope’s authority to change times and laws
I do not believe the Catholic traditions are on equal footing with scripture
I do not believe in holy water
I do not believe in papal infallibility
I do not believe in the assumption of Mary

I think that’s most of the reasons I don’t espouse to Catholicism. The reasons I do not believe in all those things is because they go against Scripture verbatim or at some point long after Christ died Catholicism simply made them up.

And you don’t know scripture as well

 

[EZweber]

I do not believe in worshiping idols

Neither do I. Catholics venerate statues. We don’t worship them. There’s a huge difference.

 

[ReadTheBible]

Show me some scripture then.

Let’s take Indulgences and Purgatory since they’re bound together in Catholicism.

According to the Roman Catechism “The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead … An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin. Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.”

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that after death, everyone who has sinned will go to “purgatory”, where they will face punishment for their sins. After this they are then allowed into the heavenly kingdom, once they have “PAID” for their sins. But with an indulgence, you can pay the church some money and you will receive an indulgence which will either reduce your time in “purgatory” or erase it all together.

Show me in scripture this doctrine. You can’t because Catholicism made it up.

I can show you scripture that contradicts this entire idea.

First we know the gift of grace is free and can’t be bought with money. We know Simon the Sorcerer wanted to pay for the gifts of God and was rebuked by Peter

Peter said " Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money"

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus we see 2 places after death, not 3. Abraham said the following to Lazarus in Luke 16

26 And beside all this between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence

Since you claim I don’t know scripture please show me where I’m mistaken using scripture.

 

[TULIPed]

Indeed. He did say that in his his own words.

He also said - at the beginning of the very same chapter:

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."

It’s a good thing neither of us knows who’s just saying Jesus is Lord, and who actually believes and acts on it. Otherwise, we’d be tempted to judge as well. Actually, come to think of it - even if we did know, we’re not supposed to judge. In any case, I know this - my eye is full of 2x4’s…

 

[ReadTheBible]

To which statutes do you show your veneration?

I’m curious because God said,

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I know we have Catholicism changing this commandment around but it does not have the power to change God’s laws nor his word. To even create a statue goes against what God has commanded.

 

[EZweber]

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 T hou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

If you look carefully at the context in Scripture, it is a condemnation pronounced at worshipping statues, which Catholics do not do. Shortly after He gives this order, He tells the Israelites to make images of cherubim, which would contradict His orders unless they were aimed at the worship of images.

 

[ReadTheBible]

I think, hope, we would agree that all power and authority rests on God.

Murder is against one of the 10 commandments yet when God told Abraham that Isaac was to be the sacrifice Abraham was compelled to obey. Why? This was in direct contradiction to God’s own law.

The reason is it was a test of Abraham’s faith but it goes to show God has the ultimate authority that we are not to question.

Getting back to your point about creating the Cherubim, God said so. That’s the only answer I can give and to me it’s sufficient. Did God tell the creator of statues that are venerated to be created?

 

[EZweber]

and authority rests on God.

Murder is against one of the 10 commandments yet when God told Abraham that Isaac was to be the sacrifice Abraham was compelled to obey. Why? This was in direct contradiction to God’s own law.

The reason is it was a test of Abraham’s faith but it goes to show God has the ultimate authority that we are not to question.

Getting back to your point about creating the Cherubim, God said so. That’s the only answer I can give and to me it’s sufficient. Did God tell the creator of statues that are venerated to be created?

God freely binds Himself by his own moral laws. In the case of Abraham, God stopped him before murder, so God did not encourage murder. However, there was no similar rescue from immorality in this case. The Catholic interpretation makes perfect sense in the context. It can be noted that all of the other Commandments are easily seen as immoral to disobey, except this one. However this makes perfect sense if it is seen as forbidding worship of images.

 

[EZweber]

God cannot disobey His own universal commandments because that would be a contradiction, not because He is bound by something outside of Himself.

 

[ReadTheBible]

It’s true that God stopped Abraham but it’s very important to note that Abraham was willing and going to kill Isaac because God commanded him to do so. By doing so Abraham proved that his love to God was stronger than that to his only son.

 

[EZweber]

very important to note that Abraham was willing and going to kill Isaac because God commanded him to do so. By doing so Abraham proved that his love to God was stronger than that to his only son.

Right, but my point is that God never disobeyed His command not to murder, or any of his commands.

 

[ReadTheBible]

This could be a very deep subject because Jesus told us we can sin by committing the act with the heart. We don’t have to physically do an act to sin.

Either way, speaking for myself, I wouldn’t create, venerate or worship statutes.