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EZweber
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But can you see where we are coming from? Our interpretation of Scripture does work.
How do protestants explain the time between Christ and the reformation?
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ReadTheBible
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My main issue is that Catholicism thinks itself authoritative enough to change the 10 commandments. If all I knew was the 10 commandments that the RCC espouses to then yes I can see where you are coming from. The problem is the RCC changed the commandments to fit their system.
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EZweber
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I have just shown why the Church has never contradicted the 10 Commandments. You can take a different interpretation if you like, but ours is consistent with the Commandments.
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GKMotley
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Neither do I. I might venerate the subject of the statue, and certainly wouldn’t worship the statue or any created entity it might represent. As to creating a statue, forget it.
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Gingersnaps4
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Protestantism has plenty of statues and icons/portraits, as well. Even non-apostolic Protestants such as baptist churches do nativity scenes with baby Jesus, the Virgin Mary and angels in them. So here it seems that they too u derstand that the graven images are about worship and not just creating an image to represent something and help us call to mind the events or people.
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Gingersnaps4
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The Protestant commandment even says not to create a statue or image of something that lives in the water…of a fish for example. Do you really think that landscape artists are bound for hell? You really think it’s a deadly sin to make a statue or painting of a fish? Or is it more likely that this is about worship I.e. the golden calf?
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Gingersnaps4
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I’m guessing that artists that specialize in animal portraits are hell bound as well if we are to take that literally 
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ReadTheBible
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I am not their judge.I simply would refrain from such things. The same goes for what you mentioned about pictures of Jesus or nativity scenes.
The question raises a point as to how strict God’s words are. Whenever I have a question about scripture I try to find the answer from another passage. Look at the story of Uzzah and the Ark of the Covenant. God gave specific instructions on how to transport the Ark and who was allowed to touch it. The Ark was falling and Uzzah steadied it with his hand. He was immediately struck dead by God. Uzzah must have thought he was only trying to help or that’s the most logical conclusion we can draw. Scripture isn’t crystal clear on Uzzah’s motives but it certainly doesn’t say he had any bad intentions. He was a non priestly Levite and probably knew he was forbidden to touch it.
God didn’t leave any wiggle room in what his commandments were. He killed Uzzah because Uzzah did something he was commanded not to even if he was only trying to steady the Ark.
Given that context, I would not tempt God on wiggle room on his commandments.
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steve-b
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Re: Who am I to judge…
Some interesting reading .
. http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/how-to-respond-when-people-say-who-am-i-to-judge
I’ve used Ez 3 numerous times myself in a bit of a different way. One example HERE
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TULIPed
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Good article.
“For example, I cannot judge that I am holier than you, or that you are more holy than I. Scripture says, Man sees the appearance, but God looks into the heart (1 Sam 16:7). I cannot tell you if someone is in Hell; only God can make that judgment. I am also forbidden the “judgment of condemnation,” wherein I am unnecessarily harsh in punishments or conclusions.”
“For example, I cannot judge that I am holier than you, or that you are more holy than I. Scripture says, Man sees the appearance, but God looks into the heart (1 Sam 16:7). I cannot tell you if someone is in Hell; only God can make that judgment. I am also forbidden the “judgment of condemnation,” wherein I am unnecessarily harsh in punishments or conclusions.”
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steve-b
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Go back and look at my posts to you. You don’t open links i gave you. If you’re really interested, why don’t you open links that answer your objections.
How is it that you have the time to learn all the wrong stuff rather that the true stuff
The word Purgatory isn’t in the bible. But neither is the Trinity.
Purgatory describes a place after death, that is not permanent, but a place of purification (purgation). One is saved, but only through fire. For some reading explaining this What the Early Church Believed: Purgatory | Catholic Answers
Protestants always leave out the finished point. Eph 2:10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
What do you suppose happens to the one who doesn’t do what God created in advance for THEM to do?
If the rich man can’t get out he is in hell. That does NOT describe purgatory as you now know if you opened the link above and actually read it. Your problem is you’re reading from shallow hit pieces and you’re finding out, they are wrong
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Re: indulgences Myths about Indulgences | Catholic Answers
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JimG
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Photographs and engravings and paintings are also graven images, as are movies and videos, family photos, pictures in magazines and textbooks and newspapers—pictures of a lot of things that are in the heavens above and the earth below or the creatures in the sea. Images and likenesses are everywhere from encyclopedias to Wikipedia to internet images. Is all this forbidden? Better toss all the photo albums and magazines and keep off the internet.
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steve-b
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just a continuing thought Re: judging others
1 Cor 5:
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;[d] 10 not at all meaning the immoral[e] of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote[f] to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality[g] or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 What business is it of mine to judge κρίνειν; those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge κρίνετε; those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.
We often hear “you can’t judge” or “thou shalt not judge”. Obviously
We have to judge people’s actions in order to assess who to associate with and who not to.
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Jesus said He is to do all the judging HERE as in who does and doesn’t enter heaven
When asked the $million question, Jesus looking ahead in time, as He can do perfectly, He said FEW ARE SAVED Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. few = ὀλίγοι
Scripture already gives us a list of sins that prevent one from heaven if they die in those sins. Apparently, according to Jesus most die in those sins.
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TULIPed
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By all means. Definitely wouldn’t want to associate with the wrong people. Especially people not like yourself. Only want to associate with religious people who believe the same thing I do. And all those that don’t - well, they can keep away.
Thank God Jesus said only a few get in - that many less I have to associate with (and maybe take care of).
Say - I wonder who Jesus would’ve considered people that you wouldn’t associate with back in his day. Tax collector/traitors? Prostitutes? Poor people? Prisoners? Rich people? Non believers? Adulterers? Samaritans? Sick people? Crazy people? Unclean people? No, he associated (and loved) all those people. Dang it. There’s got to be somebody Jesus didn’t associated with.
Wait a minute - I’ve got it. Religious people. Yep - that’s it - he didn’t associate with the religious “pious” people of the day. In fact, he called them a “brood of vipers” if memory serves.
Personally, I don’t spend near enough time loving the people that Jesus loved and healed. Far easier to remain ensconced comfortably with the “few”. I need to get out more.
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steve-b
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Jesus was focused on His own people first. The first people of the covenant. He gives them 1st right of refusal for the New and everlasting covenant. To make the point He told His apostles the following.steve-b:
By all means. Definitely wouldn’t want to associate with the wrong people. Especially people not like yourself. Only want to associate with religious people who believe the same thing I do. And all those that don’t - well, they can keep away.
Thank God Jesus said only a few get in - that many less I have to associate with (and maybe take care of).
Say - I wonder who Jesus would’ve considered people that you wouldn’t associate with back in his day. Tax collector/traitors? Prostitutes? Poor people? Prisoners? Rich people? Non believers? Adulterers? Samaritans? Sick people? Crazy people? Unclean people? No, he associated (and loved) all those people. Dang it. There’s got to be somebody Jesus didn’t associated with.
Wait a minute - I’ve got it. Religious people. Yep - that’s it - he didn’t associate with the religious “pious” people of the day. In fact, he called them a “brood of vipers” if memory serves.
Personally, I don’t spend near enough time loving the people that Jesus loved and healed. Far easier to remain ensconced comfortably with the “few”. I need to get out more.
Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them,“Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons…
Obviously we ultimately got included…
Peter brought the first Gentiles into the Church…(the Cornelius family)All I can say, I’m trying to be in with the few.
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Gingersnaps4
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Indeed. This is where we logically end up when we take those words in a strict literal sense.
Better throw out all of the pictures in your home, delete your CAF account and throw away your computer and tv, to be safe. Even if you aren’t creating graven images you are looking at and interacting with them.
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TULIPed
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You and me both.
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ReadTheBible
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I’ve opened your quotes which are all using Catholic sources. I haven’t pointed you to read Luther’s works or Calvin or any of the Protestants to validate my beliefs.How is it that you have the time to learn all the wrong stuff rather that the true stuff
The word Purgatory isn’t in the bible. But neither is the Trinity.
Purgatory describes a place after death, that is not permanent, but a place of purification (purgation). One is saved, but only through fire. For some reading explaining this https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-roots-of-purgatory
The word Purgatory isn’t in the scripture and neither is the idea. You equate this with the word Trinity but the idea of the Trinity isn’t just in the New Testament. It’s also in the Old in many examples. The best example I can think of is Isaiah
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord
hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
This is Jesus talking saying that God and the Holy Spirit has sent him.
The passages about the Trinity of God are too numerous to mention, including many references in the Old Testament.
Your link gives 1 Corinthians 3:11–15, and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32. as proof of Purgatory. There isn’t one shred of scripture in those verses that say when a Christian dies, they must suffer a undetermined time before entering Heaven. They simply don’t say it. Catholicism says that’s what the verses mean to meet their own goals of having a Purgatory.
There are lots of places in scripture that eliminate the idea of a Purgatory.
Hebrews 7
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
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ReadTheBible
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Hebrews 10
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Romans 6:
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Purgatory says the sins we die with must be paid for by the “purifying fire” of purgatory. Scripture, however, says that Christ’s death on the cross paid for our past, present and future sins. Likewise, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the believer, so God sees us as He sees His Son, perfectly righteous. This is why we are perfected, and it is why God will remember our sins no more, since they have been punished on the cross. As the Scriptures above demonstrate, God’s word proves purgatory to be a false teaching. Even worse, it blasphemes the gospel of Christ by teaching that His sacrifice and imputed righteousness was not sufficient
As much as Catholicism wants to have it both ways it simply can’t be.
Either Christ’s death alone was enough for our sins or it wasn’t. Catholicism claims it wasn’t by the very thought and belief of Purgatory. They will not ever come out against scripture and say that Christ’s death wasn’t enough though. They play both sides of the con and Jesus said you can only have one master.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Romans 6:
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Purgatory says the sins we die with must be paid for by the “purifying fire” of purgatory. Scripture, however, says that Christ’s death on the cross paid for our past, present and future sins. Likewise, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the believer, so God sees us as He sees His Son, perfectly righteous. This is why we are perfected, and it is why God will remember our sins no more, since they have been punished on the cross. As the Scriptures above demonstrate, God’s word proves purgatory to be a false teaching. Even worse, it blasphemes the gospel of Christ by teaching that His sacrifice and imputed righteousness was not sufficient
As much as Catholicism wants to have it both ways it simply can’t be.
Either Christ’s death alone was enough for our sins or it wasn’t. Catholicism claims it wasn’t by the very thought and belief of Purgatory. They will not ever come out against scripture and say that Christ’s death wasn’t enough though. They play both sides of the con and Jesus said you can only have one master.
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ReadTheBible
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Do you spiritually venerate pictures of family, or paintings, or the like? Or do you simply enjoy looking at them? That is the difference and the issue I would have concerning spiritually venerating, bowing, kissing the feet of statues or the like.Better throw out all of the pictures in your home, delete your CAF account and throw away your computer and tv, to be safe. Even if you aren’t creating graven images you are looking at and interacting with them.
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