How do protestants explain the time between Christ and the reformation?

[whatistrue]

Do you spiritually venerate pictures of family, or paintings, or the like?

And yet again you take in the lie, ignoring what is actually taught. Catholics do not venerate the statues; it is exactly the same as pictures of loved ones that anyone might keep around the house. Have you never heard of some lonely soul hugging a picture of their dear dead grandmother to their bosom and kissing it when getting ready for sleep or when they are missing her more than usual? Or talking to a picture of their departed mother and telling her about the joys that the children brought that day? Of course many if not most saints were never photographed, so all we have are paintings and statues.

 

[adf417]

Gingersnaps4:

Better throw out all of the pictures in your home, delete your CAF account and throw away your computer and tv, to be safe. Even if you aren’t creating graven images you are looking at and interacting with them.

Do you spiritually venerate pictures of family, or paintings, or the like? Or do you simply enjoy looking at them? That is the difference and the issue I would have concerning spiritually venerating, bowing, kissing the feet of statues or the like.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I think now would be a good time to introduce the old “kneeling to the box of tissue” pic that used to circulate here on CAF. Do you think this group of people are worshiping the box of Kleenex or some other graven image in this pic?

Peace!!!

 

[ReadTheBible]

Catholics venerate statues

Catholics do not venerate the statues

Which is it?

 

[GKMotley]

Number two.

 

[EZweber]

Which is it?

It seems that we are using different senses of venerate. When I say we venerate statues, I mean we show honor to them as a means of honoring the persons they represent. I am guessing that @whatistrue means that we do not honor statues because the statues are worthy of honor in themselves.

 

[adf417]

Number two.

Depends on your definition of venerate.

 

[EZweber]

Either that or we do not worship statues, which is very different than venerating them.

 

[GKMotley]

Sounds very Anglicanish

 

[hope]

Either Christ’s death alone was enough for our sins or it wasn’t. Catholicism claims it wasn’t by the very thought and belief of Purgatory. They will not ever come out against scripture and say that Christ’s death wasn’t enough though. They play both sides of the con and Jesus said you can only have one master.

What do you believe Jesus meant when He said that the very last penny would be paid. Matthew 5:26 and **Luke 12:59 or when He said that the sin against the Spirit would not be forgiven in this world or the world to come?
2 Maccabees 12:46 : “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.” You don’t have to tell me that you don’t believe that Maccabees is not scripture but it is and I don;t believe there is a legitimate reason to reject it. My favorite reasoning is that the Jews don’t accept it. A strange reasoning to me after all they reject Jesus too.

 

[hope]

This is false. There has been no change to the the commandments. The commandments have no numbering. You do not understand scripture and in reading your post you take a sentence and make it mean something unintended by scripture As was pointed out to you, the scripture you are referring to is about the worship of false gods.

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

Read it as it was meant. It states that there shall not be any other gods than it goes on to expound more about worship of false gods. It isn’t about making statues but to worship them. That is why God is not contracting Himself when he ask for angels to be put on the Ark.
You do the same thing with John 6
You pick out that they didn’t believe and ignore

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drinkAs a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him…

It is not only that they didn’t believe but that what Jesus said that He would give His Body and Blood to eat they could not believe

There is no unbroken chain from Peter to the current pope and this fact alone breaks any grandiose claim of infallibility.

So says you but what you state is false.
You don’t seem to understand the significance of Jesus giving Peter the keys to heaven. You really have to know scripture to understand it.

 

[ReadTheBible]

What do you believe Jesus meant when He said that the very last penny would be paid. Matthew 5:26 and **Luke 12:59

The passage in Matthew is very straight forward but I would include more verses for context.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Jesus is dealing with the issue of anger. One point he makes is that putting off settling the issue doesn’t make it go away. Paul gave the example of not letting the sun go down on your wrath. When disputes aren’t settled quickly they can grow to be a bigger problem than what the original issue was.

Putting off setting a dispute can cause the person mad at you less sympathetic when it finally comes to settling. If your adversary drags you before a judge he too could be more harsh in dealing with you because you failed to try and reach a resolution.

Solomon compared it to a dam about to break in Proverbs. “The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.”

 

[ReadTheBible]

and **Luke 12:59

54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

The ending of the passage is very similar to Matthew with a slightly different context. Instead of dealing with anger he’s discussing why the people aren’t more aware of what’s happening around them concerning Jesus. They all can know the weather by looking around but they fail to see the truth in Jesus. They live in a society of Pharisees with false agendas, and looking to destroy Jesus. What are the crimes that Jesus has committed? Raising the dead, healing the blind, deaf, the leper, casting out demons.

Again, reconciliation with their opponent needs to take place prior to standing before the judge.

 

[hope]

The question which you are avoiding is what are you being released from? Your explanation does not explain it.

 

[ReadTheBible]

You really have to know scripture to understand it.

I’m not going back to discuss your other 2 points as it’s all been discussed from both sides.

The latest topic is Indulgences and Purgatory. I’ve stated plenty of passages from scripture that directly contradict the idea of purgatory and indulgences. So far Steveb has only responded with websites containing the dogmas of Catholicism.

I think we’re all in agreement about the dogmas and why Catholicism holds firm to their position but I’ve yet to hear any comments on what scripture says.

I’m going to bed, good night

 

[JimG]

I am reminded of that incident just before Jesus ascended into heaven, when he presented each of the apostles with a bound bible and said, “If you need to know anything, it’s all in there.”

But wait. That can’t be right since most of the new testament was as yet unwritten. Still, he did command them to preach the good news to all the nations, sending them out without bibles.
Come to think of it, he never commanded anyone to write anything.
But they went out and preached the gospel anyway.

 

[hope]

I’m not going back to discuss your other 2 points as it’s all been discussed from both sides.

The latest topic is Indulgences and Purgatory. I’ve stated plenty of passages from scripture that directly contradict the idea of purgatory and indulgences. So far Steveb has only responded with websites containing the dogmas of Catholicism.

I think we’re all in agreement about the dogmas and why Catholicism holds firm to their position but I’ve yet to hear any comments on what scripture says.

I’m going to bed, good night

I hope you had a good night sleep.
I believe that you are referring to the fact that Peter was given the Keys which destroys your assertion that he was not given authority over the Church. Oh and it is anti-Catholic to say we worship the Pope. Only anti-Catholics would make such a claim
The second point I believe you are referring to the Commandment of not making idols. Mostly the argument that statues are graven images are not substantiated. Your claim was also that Catholics have changed the Commandments again not substantiated.
As for purgatory, I have presented two scriptures that demonstrate there is something more after death. Speaking of death Scripture states that

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living

There is not such things as prayers to a dead person unless you deny scripture.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

How is it that you have the time to learn all the wrong stuff rather that the true stuff

The word Purgatory isn’t in the bible. But neither is the Trinity.

Purgatory describes a place after death, that is not permanent, but a place of purification (purgation). One is saved, but only through fire. For some reading explaining this https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-roots-of-purgatory

I’ve opened your quotes which are all using Catholic sources. I haven’t pointed you to read Luther’s works or Calvin or any of the Protestants to validate my beliefs.

Based on what you write, There is no indication you opened or read the links I gave.

 

[steve-b]

Hebrews 10

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

you need to read what follows

Heb 10

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

**26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries**28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. **29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? **30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

What did they do when they meet on Sunday? They are celebrating the Eucharist.

What is the sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant referring to? When Jesus initiated the Eucharist .
Matthew 26:28
Mark 14:24

And the consequences for one deliberately missing the Eucharist on the Day (Sunday) the Lord’s Day after being given the knowledge of truth? Read it for yourself.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

You have given your interpretation of John 6 with regards to the Real Presence. But what do you make of the fact that we have extrabiblical writings from the early church that teach the Real Presence? For instance, from Bishop St. Ignatius of Antioch, just to cite one.

“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”

“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

So, do you think that these early church fathers that had direct contact with the Appstles, got it wrong? You can also find writings on the Real Presence written by people who were taught by an original apostle.

(St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved)

 

[ReadTheBible]

The question which you are avoiding is what are you being released from? Your explanation does not explain it.

I did explain it. Neither passage you gave says anything about death in Matthew 5:26 & Luke 12:59.

They don’t talk about death and they don’t talk about a release from something after death. They’re straight forward texts. I know and understand Catholicism uses these passages for their attempt at some kind of backing up of their idea of Purgatory. They’re simply twisting scripture to fit an idea that was invented long after Christ died.

Oh and it is anti-Catholic to say we worship the Pope

Can we come back to this? I’m willing to discuss any topic but you have already went back and talked about the whole Peter thing which was discussed as much as it probably could be.

Based on what you write, There is no indication you opened or read the links I gave.

I opened and read your links but again, you are citing webpages that are Catholic resources. They gave passages which I dealt with. Can we at least keep our dialogue strictly on scripture instead of providing 3rd party sources? If you asked me to explain something and I gave you a link to MartinLuther.com (no clue if that’s a site or not) would anything on the page hold weight with you?

You haven’t given your explanation for scripture that negates the idea of Purgatory that I gave in Romans 6, Hebrews 10, & Hebrews 7.

I at least gave my explanation for the scripture on the Catholic site, and others here. Can you provide your answer to the scripture I gave?