How do protestants explain the time between Christ and the reformation?

[ReadTheBible]

No they don’t

How do you explain Hebrews 10?

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Jesus will not remember the Christian’s sins. They are wiped clean 100%. If there are no sins to remember, why would a purgatory exist to burn away sins that aren’t remembered by the Master?

 

[EZweber]

Scripture gives us 2 definitions of blasphemy. If a man claims to be God, or claims to have the power of God (ie forgive sin) it is blasphemy.

If he claims to have a power of God that he doesn’t have and cannot have. God can love. It is a power of God. I can also love. It is not blasphemy to say that.

 

[EZweber]

Again, you make my point for me in that the true Church, the Church triumphant, is not circumscribed by the Roman Catholic denomination. This isn’t to say that all doctrinal statements are correct from any one denomination, but it should make us question whether all dogmatic statements of doctrine should even have been declared as dogmatic (necessary to the faith for the purpose of salvation) as opposed to adiaphoron.

As I said before, an aetheist can validly baptize. Aetheists are not Christians.

 

[EZweber]

Jesus will not remember the Christian’s sins. They are wiped clean 100%. If there are no sins to remember, why would a purgatory exist to burn away sins that aren’t remembered by the Master?

Although Christ’s sacrifice was perfectly efficacious, and if you fully repent before death, you don’t have to enter Purgatory, we need to be purged of our attraction to sin before entering Heaven.

 

[ReadTheBible]

Love is an act not a power unique to God. We can forgive those who do us wrong and are supposed to. Again it’s an act, or ability, not exclusive to God. The pardoning of sin is a power to which God alone has to which scripture teaches. Humans never have nor never will have that power.

 

[EZweber]

Love is an act not a power unique to God. We can forgive those who do us wrong and are supposed to. Again it’s an act, or ability, not exclusive to God. The pardoning of sin is a power to which God alone has to which scripture teaches. Humans never have nor never will have that power.

The Old Testament says at the time that no one else has that power. Think of a priest as an ambassador of God. Like the ambassador of a country, he has some power to make arrangements. This isn’t the best explanation, but I have to leave now.

 

[Neithan]

One particular protestant denomination that I encountered (through members of my extended family who converted to it) points at John 9:4 where Jesus said “the night cometh, when no man can work.” They argue that this was a prophecy for the era after the original Apostles had all passed away, when the nascent church was left in darkness until the era of the “new apostles” in the 1800s. I’m not making this up: many people believe this and are part of this protestant church. Without a united community of faith anyone can make up their own ideas about the words of scripture.

The Catholic understanding of John 9:4 is a reference to good works during our waking life, with Christ as the perfect example, and the impossibility of merit after death (or during sleep).

 

[ReadTheBible]

The Old Testament says at the time that no one else has that power.

There are examples in the NT and I gave at least one reference to which only God can pardon sin.

1 John 1 gives another example of why the idea of Purgatory goes against scripture.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Notice that our joy may be full, not partially full. Why are we able to be full of joy if we believe in Christ and do God’s will. Because “he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Not some, all.

John doesn’t say we can be somewhat happy knowing if we confess our sins we have to worry about dying because there is a fire and torment we must go through in another place in order to reach Heaven.

 

[Neithan]

I like that you highlight “cleanse” and “cleanseth” in your exegesis. Purgatory is precisely that, and the suffering souls are full of joy for the mercy of God has assured them of their salvation.

 

[ReadTheBible]

The scripture says Jesus cleanses us from sin, not Purgatory or anything else.

 

[Neithan]

We may detach from any confused connotations of the word “Purgatory” and call it “the place or state where Christ accomplishes the final spiritual cleansing after life in mercy for souls who die without attaining perfect purity.” That’s a bit wordy, though.

 

[Hodos]

As I said before, an aetheist can validly baptize. Aetheists are not Christians.

Gotcha. You misunderstood what I meant. I am not asking if the person doing the baptism is performing a valid baptism. Is a Protestant baptism salvific?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

No they don’t

How do you explain Hebrews 10:9-21

after-death purification from sin, is described in the OT and NT …such as

1 Corinthians 3:11–15 this loss, this penalty, after death, (the Day) can’t refer to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there.

AND

Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32

AND
Since few people are perfect when they die
purification is necessary because, Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven Rev. 21:27

1 Peter 3:19 refers to φυλακῇ a temporary place other than hell of the damned because there is No need to preach to souls who are damned forever! Those Jesus preached to could benefit from that, and will finally get out, and go to Heaven.

AND

The OT. 2 Macc. 12:41–45 pray for the dead is already understood by Jews to help those souls after they have died. Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. It presumes a middle existence where souls can benefit from prayer before heaven.

Christ accomplished all of our salvation on the cross. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among which, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering Rom. 5:3–5 , and Rom 8:17 . Purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying purifying redemption that he accomplished by his death on the cross. Sanctification is thus not an option, It is an absolute requirement for heaven as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

That said

If heaven is such a straight shot, a done deal, for a “said Christian” after death, why would Paul show any concern he might be disqualified ? HERE Why would Jesus say FEW ARE SAVED

 

[hope]

The Greek tenses of John 20:23 make it clear that the apostles were authorized only to announce the terms of forgiveness on the basis of God’s previous appointment. There is a famous Greek scholar J. R. Mantey who pointed out the Greek “Fathers” never quoted this passage in support of the concept of absolution

The Greek Tense makes it clear that they were to announce. Prey tell how does it do that. Tell me about what tense it is. And how tense make it an announcement. Forgiving sins is not the same as granting salvation.

 

[EZweber]

Gotcha. You misunderstood what I meant. I am not asking if the person doing the baptism is performing a valid baptism. Is a Protestant baptism salvific?

Yes, but so is aetheist baptism. Anyone can baptize just as well as anyone else. Canon law sensibly requires that an ordained minister baptizes exept in an emergency.

 

[Hodos]

Yes, but so is aetheist baptism. Anyone can baptize just as well as anyone else. Canon law sensibly requires that an ordained minister baptizes exept in an emergency.

Again you misunderstand the crux of the question, either purposefully or not. I will just let it lie at this point.

 

[GKMotley]

I occasionally get my wrist slapped doing this, but yes, any valid baptism (in which the form, matter, intent and recipient of the sacrament are all valid) is a valid baptism and imparts the sacramental grace. The minister, whoever it may be, with the intent to do whatever the Church does in that sacramental action, has thus the requisite sacramental intent.

 

[EZweber]

Again you misunderstand the crux of the question, either purposefully or not. I will just let it lie at this point.

Apparently I do misunderstand it. What exactly are you asking? I promise to answer this one without reference to aetheists.

 

[steve-b]

19 Therefore , … 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

**26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment , and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries **28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. **29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace ? **30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

What did they do when they meet on Sunday? They are celebrating the Eucharist.

What is the sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant referring to? When Jesus initiated the Eucharist .
Matthew 26:28
Mark 14:24

And the consequences for one deliberately missing the Eucharist on the Day (Sunday) the Lord’s Day after being given the knowledge of truth? Read it for yourself.

ReadTheBible:

I have zero idea how you read that passage and take away from it that they were meeting together and celebrating the Eucharist. It doesn’t say that at all.

I gave you the scriptures describing what they were doing.

ReadTheBible:

If we live a life of sin after receiving the gospel we do not receive grace. The punishment would be hell. It’s very straight forward. The blood of the covenant is the blood Jesus shed on the cross. There’s nothing in those verses concerning the Eucharist or Purgatory or Indulgences.

Hebrews specifically mentions Sacrifice for sin, and blood of the covenant. THOSE phrases Jesus used instituting the Eucharist. I gave the scriptures. and Hebrews says it is a HUGE SIN as in MORTAL SIN to deliberately not celebrate the Eucharist every Sunday. IOW it’s an obligation not a suggestion. Hebrews also gives the consequence for that person who blows off the obligation… The CCC states the obligation as well. HERE and HERE

BTW, “grave sin” = mortal sin. It’s the same.

 

[JonNC]

@ReadTheBible

All of the disciples were made to understand by Jesus that he was talking figuratively. The ones who left did so because they didn’t believe in Jesus…

You come from a completely different lineage. Your lineage comes from Luther, your father in faith, and all the others in revolt in the 16th century … down to this day.

Steve, this is so patently false that it surprises me someone as knowledgeable as you would say it.
The false doctrine that the Eucharist is symbolic only has absolutely no link whatsoever to Luther.

Who , but the devil , has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body ? or, that is is the same as it signifies ? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil , that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine ; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present .
Surely, it is not credible , nor possible , since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only ; or the body of Christ is not there , especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them , had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present : but they are all of them unanimous.”

-Luther