How do the Orthodox view the Eastern Catholics?

[Cecilianus]

Pardon my ignorance on the subject; I am really trying to learn more about the other lung.

Isn’t it true that some of the Eastern Rites reunified with Rome but others never split and remained Eastern in rite but unified with Rome after the “great schism”?

Who would their (the latter’s) “mother” be?

Yes; in Sicily and Calabria the Byzantine-rite monks and bishops never left communion with Rome. Due to the demographic changes during the Norman conquest, the only remnant of Byzantine Catholicism in Italy today is the monastery of St. Neilos in Grottaferrata (outside of Rome), which was founded around 900 A.D. Most of the Byzantine dioceses in Calabria and Apulia became Italo-Albanian dioceses after many Albanians fled the Muslim invasion in the 14th century; these were originally Orthodox (though the schism was not really very distinct at that point) who became Byzantine Catholic when they fled to Italy.

The Maronites never left communion with Rome either, and there has never been an Orthodox counterpart to them.

 

[Marc_Hanna]

Only 14 of the 22. BTW, it’s Eastern Rite, not Eastern Right.

You are correct, that’s what happens when you type without thinking I agree with you on the other points as well. My omission was for the sake of simplicity.

 

[Harpazo]

Yes; in Sicily and Calabria the Byzantine-rite monks and bishops never left communion with Rome. Due to the demographic changes during the Norman conquest, the only remnant of Byzantine Catholicism in Italy today is the monastery of St. Neilos in Grottaferrata (outside of Rome), which was founded around 900 A.D. Most of the Byzantine dioceses in Calabria and Apulia became Italo-Albanian dioceses after many Albanians fled the Muslim invasion in the 14th century; these were originally Orthodox (though the schism was not really very distinct at that point) who became Byzantine Catholic when they fled to Italy.

The Maronites never left communion with Rome either, and there has never been an Orthodox counterpart to them.

The situation with the Maronites is a little sticky. For one reason or another, communication was interrupted for centuries and some Maronite parishes and bishops were accused of adopting monothelitism. Whether the whole Maronite Church did or not, we don’t really know for sure. Some will argue they did. The Maronite Church did denounced monothelitism as a whole when they re-entered communion with Rome in 1100s, I believe.

There are some towns in Southern Italy that are rediscovering their Byzantine routes and embracing Orthodoxy again. Calabria being one of them. Sicily, where my family hails from is seeing a revival, too, but on not as large of a scale.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

Malphono:
The local WRO is almost exclusively former protestants. Then again, so is St. John’s as a whole… (It was originally Evangelical Orthodox.)

What is “Evangelical Orthodox”? I never heard of it.

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

The situation with the Maronites is a little sticky. For one reason or another, communication was interrupted for centuries and some Maronite parishes and bishops were accused of adopting monothelitism. Whether the whole Maronite Church did or not, we don’t really know for sure. Some will argue they did. The Maronite Church did denounced monothelitism as a whole when they re-entered communion with Rome in 1100s, I believe.

This is incorrect. The Maronite have always been in communion with Rome.

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

Its questionable as to whether the Maronite Church did or did not break off communion with Rome at some point. In its case though, the entire Maronite Church reaffirmed communion with Rome so it is its Mother Church. In other cases, only part of a particular Church affirmed communion and thus the majority remained Orthodox and the minority entered into Communion with Rome.

This is from maryourmother.net/Eastern.html
“Little was heard from the Maronites for 400 years, as they quietly escaped the Muslim invasions in the mountains of Lebanon, until the Crusader Raymond of Toulouse discovered the Maronites in the mountains near Tripoli, Lebanon on his way to conquer Jerusalem. The Maronites again confirmed their loyalty to the Pope in 1181. The Maronite Patriarch Jeremiah attended the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, and the Maronite College in Rome was inaugurated in 1584. The Maronites have always remained true to Rome.” (my emphasis)

 

[Madaglan]

What is “Evangelical Orthodox”? I never heard of it.

The Evangelical Orthodox Church is an evangelical Protestant church established in the 1970’s. It was established after its leading members studied early Christian history and discovered the liturgical worship of the early Church.

Many of the EOC congregations became canonically Orthodox in joining the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese; other congregations later were admitted into the Orthodox Church in America (OCA). Some EOC congregations did not follow the others into Orthodoxy.

Fr. Peter Gilquist is particularly associated with the transition of the EOC congregations to canonical Orthodoxy.

 

[Madaglan]

This is from maryourmother.net/Eastern.html
“Little was heard from the Maronites for 400 years, as they quietly escaped the Muslim invasions in the mountains of Lebanon, until the Crusader Raymond of Toulouse discovered the Maronites in the mountains near Tripoli, Lebanon on his way to conquer Jerusalem. The Maronites again confirmed their loyalty to the Pope in 1181. The Maronite Patriarch Jeremiah attended the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, and the Maronite College in Rome was inaugurated in 1584. The Maronites have always remained true to Rome.” (my emphasis)

For those 400 years, did they have any communication with the Pope of Rome? Or with any of the surrounding Orthodox Churches? The impression I get from accounts like this is that they were completely cut off from the remaining Christian world. Is this correct?

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

For those 400 years, did they have any communication with the Pope of Rome? Or with any of the surrounding Orthodox Churches? The impression I get from accounts like this is that they were completely cut off from the remaining Christian world. Is this correct?

According to sources, they were isolated, but they never broke with Rome. There was a re-establishment of links with the Holy See, but it was like brothers meeting after many years. The maronites still considered themselves Catholic.

 

[Cecilianus]

Sicily, where my family hails from is seeing a revival, too, but on not as large of a scale.

In Christ,
Andrew

Then count me as part of it, even though my family swam the pond:thumbsup:

 

[JMJ_coder]

How do Catholics view Western rite Orthodox?

I view it as a strange (to put it nicely) experiment by the Antiochian Orthodox.

 

[JMJ_coder]

BTW, it’s Eastern Rite, not Eastern Right.

Yes, but the Easterners have a right to their rite!

 

[Harpazo]

This is incorrect. The Maronite have always been in communion with Rome.

I understand that you see differently. I pointed out that it is hard to determine one way or another if they were out of communion. What makes you so sure that they were? I worshiped with the Maronites for about a year before becoming an Orthodox catechumen. So I understand the arguments for both sides.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Formosus]

Harpazo;5767294:

The situation with the Maronites is a little sticky. For one reason or another, communication was interrupted for centuries and some Maronite parishes and bishops were accused of adopting monothelitism. Whether the whole Maronite Church did or not, we don’t really know for sure. Some will argue they did. The Maronite Church did denounced monothelitism as a whole when they re-entered communion with Rome in 1100s, I believe.

This is incorrect. The Maronite have always been in communion with Rome.

This is the position taken by the Maronite Church, but some Maronites disagree (one in particular used to post here) and other Maronite scholars and historians find the official position to most likely be wishful thinking. Even the old Catholic Encyclopedia claims the maronites did indeed fall out of communion with Rome. So the notion that they did not is not as clear as some say it is. Nobody really knows if they were or were not monothelite during that period. We do know the latins forcibly purged the maronites of many books and prayers they found to sound monothelite, and thus erasing most documentation concerning these 400 years of isolation.

 

[mardukm]

Why would it matter to anyone else but the Maronites if they were once monothelite or not? ISTM that’s an internal matter among Maronites.

Blessings

 

[Ignatius]

How do Catholics view Western rite Orthodox?

What is a “Western Rite Orthodox”?

 

[Aramis]

Yes, but the Easterners have a right to their rite!

Yes, they do! Thank-you, Pope St. Pius X, Thank you!

 

[Cluny]

What is a “Western Rite Orthodox”?

Just what the name implies.

They are Orthodox who practice the Western Rite, with a few verbal changes in the prayers to bring it into line with Orthodox doctrine: omission of Filoque and references to the treasury of merits, addition of an explicit Epiclesis to the Canon, and some other ones.

While in the USA they are principally among the Antiochians, they are also found in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, and in different juridictions in Europe.

It’s a movement that began about 1898 or so.

There is a large WR parish in Denver, Colorado–St. Augustine’s–whose principal Sunday service is a High Mass (or at least Missa Cantata) in Latin. Metropolitan Philip blessed their particular vocation to “preserve and foster” the patrimony of Gregorian chant and polyphony.

 

[lux_perpetua]

why should a move from one church [Western to eastern] be any more preferable than a move in the other direction? why should any dispensations be needed at all if we are supposed to be one Holy catholic and Apostolic church?

 

[Aramis]

why should a move from one church [Western to eastern] be any more preferable than a move in the other direction? why should any dispensations be needed at all if we are supposed to be one Holy catholic and Apostolic church?

One of the councils had a bar on westerns moving to the Eastern Churches in Union due to the view of that council that the ECC’s were merely a process of latinization of Orthodox populations to bring them, eventually, to being Roman Rite.

In essence, the ECC’s were an Economia, not a true Ecclesia Ecumenia.

Pope Pius X made some serious changes, as did HH Pius XI, and HH Pius XII, and HH John XXIII, and Paul VI… and Vatican II made it the decision of the Church that the ECC’s are an integral part of the subsistence of the Church, rather than an Economia.

Functionally, THAT was the true doctrinal issue resolved at VII… and, really, about the only doctrinal issue addressed directly.

And for some, that was (and still is) a bitter pill to swallow.