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thephilosopher6
Guest
Muslims claim that it was Paul who started Christianity, though I find this argument very weak, I wanted to see how others would answer.
How do we answer Muslim assertions that St. Paul the Apostle was a false prophet?
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Reepicheep
Guest
What reasons do they give for this belief?
What sources do they cite as evidence?
What sources do they cite as evidence?
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phil19034
Guest
Considering that: (1) Paul wasn’t a prophet, but an apostle and (2) he didn’t found Christianity - Jesus did; I think the burden of proof is on them.
NOTE: I’ve heard some Jews say something similar… that Jesus was a good Rabbi and that it was Paul who perverted with Jesus taught. But again, that doesn’t line up with history nor logic.
NOTE: I’ve heard some Jews say something similar… that Jesus was a good Rabbi and that it was Paul who perverted with Jesus taught. But again, that doesn’t line up with history nor logic.
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Vonsalza
Guest
It’s pretty thoroughly blasted by Peter’s recognition of his ministry.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
I always go with the: soo we are to believe the Apostle Paul, Roman citizen, Torah-Talmudically educated, antiChristian convert and pillar of the faith - was a deceiver…
BUT…
An uneducated, illiterate, merchant, who thought he may have been deceived by Satan … is the true prophet?
Ahahha… Evidence please, please give me a minute to compose myself
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thephilosopher6
Guest
They reject him solely because his writings contradict the message of the Qur’an. In their world view, where logic and reason don’t always seem to exist, he must then be a false prophet.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Well, but many people say that about Christianity. Pointing the finger at another faith tradition and their beliefs is not really a good idea. We all have things we take on faith, and things that don’t make a lot of sense outside the tradition.
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Reepicheep
Guest
Uh, stereotype much?
I’m sure there are Muslims like that. There are Christians like that. It doesn’t mean we’re all like that, and neither are Muslims.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
Islam is based purely off of blind faith, Christianity on the other hand is based off of actual eyewitness testimonies and much more substantial evidence. Many people throughout history have claimed to have visions and be prophets, Mani, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, etc. Islam lacks anything substantial. Why didn’t Allah at least give Muhammad the power to do miracle? Well in Christianity, Jesus had the power to do miracles! Jesus actually rose from the dead and hundreds of people witnessed him (1 Corinthians 15:6), many of whom later died for their witness.
Sorry, not all faiths are equal. To be frank, I am sick of seeing other Christians be so willing to give way to Islam. Really, just stop defending this false religion and actually stand up for Christ for once.
po18guy
Well-known member
I am not speaking of people. Please do not stereotype me.
I am speaking of the doctrines of the Islamic faith.
Experts (i.e. those who know much more than you or I) have clearly and consistently explained that Islam does not tolerate questioning, reasoning or dissent. It simply demands belief.
Good grief.
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reggieM
Guest
True, it’s in the nature of the religion. In fact, to say that Islam does not tolerate dissent, questioning, reasoning or analysis - is to give words of praise to Islam from the Muslim point of view. We shouldn’t expect Islam to embrace the Christian ideals of open-inquiry.I am not speaking of people. Please do not stereotype me.
I am speaking of the doctrines of the Islamic faith.
Experts (i.e. those who know much more than you or I) have clearly and consistently explained that Islam does not tolerate questioning, reasoning or dissent. It simply demands belief.
Good grief.
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reggieM
Guest
Where there seems to be a conflict though is that they accept Jesus as a true prophet, even though the New Testament (they claim ours is a corrupted version) conflicts with the Quran.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I say we hold the senior text, you(muslims) hold the junior text. Your book doesnt match the New testament or the OT. So the burden of proof is always on you to prove your ridiculous corruption claims.
And they cant prove anything. In fact the dead sea scrolls are proof positive that the corruption claims are baloney.
And they cant prove anything. In fact the dead sea scrolls are proof positive that the corruption claims are baloney.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
Indeed, and the New Testament has shown to be 99.5% textually pure. It’s is the best preserved work of the ancient world that we know of.
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odhiambo
Guest
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chris62
Guest
He didn’t start Christianity and he is not a false prophet.
Obviously.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
If they are a type with an enquiring mind, they need to be left with clues.
If they are determined to, they will take - and need - time and trouble to follow them up. You will need to supply Scripture references from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.
Yesu’ (not 'Isa) said the only sign He will give this generation is the sign of Yunus son of Amittai.
What is probably the tomb of Yunus was found recently.
He preached during the last flush of prosperity of the kingdom of Israel, and the spiritual revival in Nineveh, the enemy capital, would have been in time for the birth of Esarhaddon, the least terrible (in domestic policy) of the later Assyrian kings, who reigned not long before Israel was captured.
It is incomparably valuable to examine the life and ministry of Yunus. If we get right out of our comfort zone in our ministry, we could be lessening the suffering of a future generation. Some members of the “lost tribes” attached themselves (as we see in Nehemiah I think) to those whom Babylon later captured, and Jeremiah had counselled these to submit to Babylon - the whole thing being a metaphor for survival of what is cherished.
Every word of Paul’s confirms and does not at all distort, the message of Yesu’ about Yunus.
What some people have been “taught” is a conflict over Paul, turns out deep down to be all about Yunus. What then does your friend have to say to undermine Yunus?
Another thing is that Yesu’ says He and His Father will send us a Paraclete (companion and advocate). According to Paul, “ascending He distributed gifts” which Paul writes a great deal about (mostly ignored by the Church anyway). The gifts are further explained in huge detail in Yesu’s parables. (Leave miracles out of it at this stage, as some people take reports of miracles superstitiously, hence it could side-track.)
The mention of the distributing of gifts is to whet appetite if possible. But it is “open” to refuting on the “grounds” that Yesu’ isn’t the Muslims’ 'Isa. Hence, the appeal to Yunus is what it all hinges upon.
Hoping these suggestions help. Give time time and let someone else reap where you have sown and remember one doesn’t earn brownie points in God’s eyes by “winning arguments”. Pray without stopping about encounters of this kind and this sort of ministry in your life and that of people who are doing something similar. Glory Be said.
Going with mysterious and hard times and maintaining integrity and giving others time and space to explore more thoroughly how better to maintain theirs.
If they are determined to, they will take - and need - time and trouble to follow them up. You will need to supply Scripture references from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.
Yesu’ (not 'Isa) said the only sign He will give this generation is the sign of Yunus son of Amittai.
What is probably the tomb of Yunus was found recently.
He preached during the last flush of prosperity of the kingdom of Israel, and the spiritual revival in Nineveh, the enemy capital, would have been in time for the birth of Esarhaddon, the least terrible (in domestic policy) of the later Assyrian kings, who reigned not long before Israel was captured.
It is incomparably valuable to examine the life and ministry of Yunus. If we get right out of our comfort zone in our ministry, we could be lessening the suffering of a future generation. Some members of the “lost tribes” attached themselves (as we see in Nehemiah I think) to those whom Babylon later captured, and Jeremiah had counselled these to submit to Babylon - the whole thing being a metaphor for survival of what is cherished.
Every word of Paul’s confirms and does not at all distort, the message of Yesu’ about Yunus.
What some people have been “taught” is a conflict over Paul, turns out deep down to be all about Yunus. What then does your friend have to say to undermine Yunus?
Another thing is that Yesu’ says He and His Father will send us a Paraclete (companion and advocate). According to Paul, “ascending He distributed gifts” which Paul writes a great deal about (mostly ignored by the Church anyway). The gifts are further explained in huge detail in Yesu’s parables. (Leave miracles out of it at this stage, as some people take reports of miracles superstitiously, hence it could side-track.)
The mention of the distributing of gifts is to whet appetite if possible. But it is “open” to refuting on the “grounds” that Yesu’ isn’t the Muslims’ 'Isa. Hence, the appeal to Yunus is what it all hinges upon.
Hoping these suggestions help. Give time time and let someone else reap where you have sown and remember one doesn’t earn brownie points in God’s eyes by “winning arguments”. Pray without stopping about encounters of this kind and this sort of ministry in your life and that of people who are doing something similar. Glory Be said.
Going with mysterious and hard times and maintaining integrity and giving others time and space to explore more thoroughly how better to maintain theirs.
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eddie_too
Guest
unless the person with whom you are discussing these questions and issues is open to change, it is pointless to proceed.
the openness to change is very rarely, if ever, precipitated by logic and reason. it is virtually always the result of divine intervention in to a person’s life. that divine intervention is typically an experience. for example, the christians martyred in the roman coliseum provided an experience that led some non-believers who were there to become open to change.
you may have heard the phrase, see those christians, see how they love one another. this is also an experience by non-believers that has been known to open them to change.
the point i am trying to make is that unless you are dialoguing with a person who already understands that they do not possess everything they need, your dialoguing is most likely to produce no fruit except, maybe, a hardening of the heart (which i do not think is the kind of fruit you want produced).
love the muslims. do good to the muslims. refuse to submit to islam’s teachings. pray for the conversion of sinners and non-believers. engage in dialogue only with those who are truly seeking to grow in the truth.
the openness to change is very rarely, if ever, precipitated by logic and reason. it is virtually always the result of divine intervention in to a person’s life. that divine intervention is typically an experience. for example, the christians martyred in the roman coliseum provided an experience that led some non-believers who were there to become open to change.
you may have heard the phrase, see those christians, see how they love one another. this is also an experience by non-believers that has been known to open them to change.
the point i am trying to make is that unless you are dialoguing with a person who already understands that they do not possess everything they need, your dialoguing is most likely to produce no fruit except, maybe, a hardening of the heart (which i do not think is the kind of fruit you want produced).
love the muslims. do good to the muslims. refuse to submit to islam’s teachings. pray for the conversion of sinners and non-believers. engage in dialogue only with those who are truly seeking to grow in the truth.
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Reuben_J
Guest
It is a non-starter. Either they are ignorant of Christianity or just being sour grape.
However, this is not an official teaching of Islam. Actually this is quite a recent trend among Muslims vis-à-vis Christianity. Thus not all Muslims would go along this line in rebutting Christianity. But you would nevertheless meet many of them who jump at the bandwagon in demonizing Paul.
Perhaps that is the easy way to dismiss Christianity outright and not to put weight on it for a serious intellectual or theological discussion. I have the feeling that those Muslims who purposely use this line of argument know that they are not going to make any serious or factual representation in their argument and therefore a futile one.
Thus the accusation against Paul is not a genuine attempt at honest discussion but rather a tactic in the debate itself. By creating bogeymen in Paul, by default they do not have to answer much of the reference in the Bible; and those reference to Paul’s epistles would be completely ignored outright.
That does not make them right though.
So I cannot see any benefit for them to use Paul as the bogeyman in Christianity.
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