How do we know that Mary was without sin and forever a virgin

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My quote,

You would elevate Mary to the same level as Christ. He is the only perfect “CREATURE”.
  • This would infer that Christ can be known by all, but the mystery that is Mary is greater and cannot be known by all, thus elevating her above Christ.
  1. I do not see any heresy in my statement?:confused:
  2. I do see scriptural refutation of the likes of,Gnosticism,Docetism,Arianism,Pelagianism etc, none of which i adhere to!🤷
Maybe you need a jumpstart from a part-time believer into a full time one…
 
Hi:)

You would elevate Mary to the same level as Christ. He is the only perfect “CREATURE”.
***** This would infer that Christ can be known by all, but the mystery that is Mary is greater and cannot be known by all, thus elevating her above Christ.
WHAT? :eek: You are downgrading Christ by calling Him a creature instead of God??

Your other inference is incorrect, therefore the premise you draw is incorrect.
 
Without the shekina, the ark was no more than a wooden box, if we hold that Mary was the ark, after she gave birth to Jesus then the shekina was no longer present, therefore removing any inhibitions
Where is the scripture to back up this claim.
What claim? That the ark was made from acacia wood (covered in and out with gold), or that after Mary gave birth to Jesus He was no longer within the womb?
Where in Scripture is the word shekina?
Granted the noun “shekina” is not found in scripture, but is derived from the verb “shakan”, (shekina coined by rabbis for the Talmud to avoid any anthropomorphic inference) which is used to describe the “abiding,dwelling or habitation” of the physical manifestations of God, (Ex 13:21,22. 24:16-18, 40:34-38, etc. I will retract the word due to its origin, but clearly the concept it embodies can be clearly seen in scripture, (as can the Trinity)!
So to cap, the “presence/glory”, of God had departed from the womb of Mary when she gave birth to Christ etc etc.
And again i reiterate concerning Ex 40:34,35 that you quoted to supposedly support Mary being ever virgin! yes it is true that Moses could not enter the tent of the congregation after the completion of the tabernacle, but are you seriously trying to dispute or portray that thereafter no-one else could? So the priests could not enter the holy place to fulfill their obligations? and neither could the high priest enter the holy of holies?
 
You would elevate Mary to the same level as Christ. He is the only perfect “CREATURE”.
  • This would infer that Christ can be known by all, but the mystery that is Mary is greater and cannot be known by all, thus elevating her above Christ.
WHAT? :eek: You are downgrading Christ by calling Him a creature instead of God??
Definition of CREATURE (Merriam_Webster)

: something created either animate or inanimate: as
a : a lower animal; especially : a farm animal
b :** a human being**
I would assume that you would place the “perfect creature” that is Mary in the above emboldened definition?
On that assumption, “And without doubt great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh”, 1Tim 3:16. Would you deny Christ was a real man? To quote ION
"You guys are falling in all the heresies that happened from the begining of the church, and you do not even know it. You can read the CCC so at least you know them.
Your other inference is incorrect, therefore the premise you draw is incorrect.
I made no inference, it is clear from the following,
“Mary is not prominent in Scripture. You can see more references of St. Peter and St. Paul. She disappears from Scripture after Acts, and very early on in Acts. The thing is, understanding Mary is not easy for someone who is not within the Church. She is the symbol of a true Christian, and until you understand what a Christian is, Mary does not make sense. So when we preach, we preach about Christ and his life and death and resurrection. We talk about Christ as the man, the teacher, the prophet, and our God. But only once one becomes truly a Christian can one enter our church and know about Mary.”
that Christ is readily known to all, but the knowledge of Mary isn’t. Therefore my original statement is neither inference nor founded on a false premise.🙂
 
Dear Jim, it is not me who has trouble reading the Holy Bible, but you. Proof is in the tradition if your hearth/mind doesn’t work properly.
Dear Ion,🙂 Your statement has admittedly confused me:confused: If you do not have trouble reading the bible,why is your proof founded on tradition? (tradition can have its place but when it is at variance to the inspired word of God, admonishment is required), “Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.” Mark 7:13 Douay-Rheims Bible
And your hearth/mind doesn’t work properly because it looks like you, in the same circumstance, would have meant "handmaid ( but only couple of hours a day) ". Holy Virgin mary is Holy Virgin Mary, no matter your personal opinion
Again, i am at a loss as to your meaning (clarification would assist)😉 Did i misquote the meaning of handmaid or some such thing? Please indulge a friendly sarcasm (to offset your personal attack, which i take no insult from)👍 the lochness monster is the lochness monster, no matter your personal opinion.😃 proof founded on tradition.
 
Bible alone. Heresy.
The Lord himself and the likes of Paul,Peter etc, referred to the “bible”, only, Matt 4:4,7,10, Luke 4:17-19, Matt 11:10,2 Corinthians 13:1,Ephesians 5:31,1 Peter 2:7,Acts 7:32, Romans 13:9,Galatians 5:14,John 19:24,Mark 9:44, etc,etc etc.etc. Other than Jude 1:14, (though the heart of that quote can be seen in Dan 7:10), i do not see any “it is written”(as it where), sourced from anywhere else!
If that makes me a heretic, then i gladly accept the tag and would rejoice in the company of mine association and give thanks unto God for such blessings:thumbsup:
 
Maybe you need a jumpstart from a part-time believer into a full time one…
Hmmm, another unfounded personal attack:crying: “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.”, Matt 6:12, I forgive you:)
 
Hmmm, another unfounded personal attack:crying: “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.”, Matt 6:12, I forgive you:)
You only proove The Imaculate Conception, as you personaly wouldn’t be able to do Holy Virgin works…I always said that protestants opinion on Holy Virgin is a projection of themselves in those circustances. You are not even at a level close of Saint Joseph, who certainly understood it.
 
  1. I assume you believe that the entire Bible is the inspired word of God. If so, do you believe that the table of contents is also inspired?
  2. If you answered that the table of contents is not inspired, to whom do you look for assurance that the Bible you have in hand is complete and inspired by God? Remember - a book cannot authenticate itself. SOMEONE or SOMETHING has to review the book and make a decision regarding its authenticity and completeness. I simply would like to know to whom do you look to for your assurance.
  3. Where in the entire NT (you don’t have to really look because it is not present, but feel free to search of you wish) did Christ tell ANYONE to write down what he did and taught while he was alive? Considering Christ did NOT tell anyone to write down what he did and taught, why should we look to something that Christ did not instruct people to do?
  4. If you do not believe that Christ entrusted the Holy Catholic Church as the final arbiter as to the canon of the OT and NT, don’t you think it odd that Christ would make no provision for his people to be SURE that what they were reading (that is, the OT and NT as the Catholic Church has passed it down from generation to generation) was in fact God’s divine word? And if you agree that such a thing would be odd, but you disagree with the contention that it was the Catholic Church to whom this duty was entrusted, to whom do you look for such assurance?
  5. Finally, if you are discussing a particular scripture verse with someone, and both of you come up with two entirely opposite views on the interpretation of that scripture, to whom do you turn to resolve that dispute? If no one, do you not realize that the failure to recognize the Catholic Church as the final arbiter of disputes over biblical verse, results in NO ONE being able to resolve that difference, and thus you and your friend are “left to the wind” to go through life without ever knowing what might be the true resolution to the dispute?
See above… and below.

(adapted from The Lens in My Eye):

Martin Luther was confronted with the question of whether or not the Landgrave Philip of Hesse, an important official of his day, might enter into a bigamous marriage. When pressed to render a judgment in the matter, Luther (together with Philip Melancthon) concluded that monogamy was no necessary part of the Christian revelation and that polygamy was a legitimate practice for a Christian. In his words: I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in such a matter.
Your suggestion that I read Matt 19:1-10 only proves my point. For such an understanding of our Lord’s words depends entirely on the way in which the Church habitually reads these words, not on the bare text alone. That is, it depends on a Tradition of Monogamy andnot merely on the text. For if we read the text strictly, we find it only speaks of divorce and remarriage. It nowhere forbids men multiple wives if they retain previous ones.

In fact, we are given biblical figures such as Jacob, David and Solomon, all of whom are spoken of with great approval by God himself and none of whom are informed that male polygamy per se is a sin.

There’s more, but you probably get the point.
Hi:) I believe that the books that make up the bible, are the inspired word of God, by faith i trust that as God moved men to write the “book” that comprise the canon of scripture, i also trust He guided men to deliver unto us what we call the “bible”, "The 39 books of the Old Testament form the Bible of Judaism, while the Christian Bible includes those books and also the 27 books of the New Testament. This list of books included in the Bible is known as the canon. That is, the canon refers to the books regarded as inspired by God and authoritative for faith and life. No church created the canon, but the churches and councils gradually accepted the list of books recognized by believers everywhere as inspired.

It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books belonging to the canon.

He distinguished those from other books that were widely circulated and he noted that those 66 books were the ones, and the only ones, universally accepted.

The point is that the formation of the canon did not come all at once like a thunderbolt, but was the product of centuries of reflection". (biblica.com/bibles/faq/7/)

TOC “A table of contents, usually headed simply “Contents” and abbreviated informally as TOC, is a list of the parts of a book or document organized in the order in which the parts appear”. In and off itself, NO NOT THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD:)
You may draw whatever conclusions you so wish regarding the rest of your monologue, this thread is not the domain of such discussions, but you probably get the point:thumbsup:
 
Actually, for the Catholic Church it is, having been defined by the Council of Trent. Since you reject the authority of the Catholic Church to make such definitions, what is the basis for your assurance that the 66 books you call the Bible are actually inspired, and that they’re the only ones that are?
Hi:) Please refer to post #186
 
You only proove The Imaculate Conception, as you personaly wouldn’t be able to do Holy Virgin works…I always said that protestants opinion on Holy Virgin is a projection of themselves in those circustances. You are not even at a level close of Saint Joseph, who certainly understood it.
You did not explain this passage “I am the handmaid of the Lord”
You didn’t explain the cancelation of the initial marriage agreement by Joseph
You ask proof. I said tradition. Here you left it in the clouds…stating your personal interpretation.
 
The Lord himself and the likes of Paul,Peter etc, referred to the “bible”, only, Matt 4:4,7,10, Luke 4:17-19, Matt 11:10,2 Corinthians 13:1,Ephesians 5:31,1 Peter 2:7,Acts 7:32, Romans 13:9,Galatians 5:14,John 19:24,Mark 9:44, etc,etc etc.etc. Other than Jude 1:14, (though the heart of that quote can be seen in Dan 7:10), i do not see any “it is written”(as it where), sourced from anywhere else!
If that makes me a heretic, then i gladly accept the tag and would rejoice in the company of mine association and give thanks unto God for such blessings:thumbsup:
Blessings.Good answers. Early church father Barnabus,." It is well,that he who is learned of the judgements of the Lord, as many as are written, should walk in them"
 
Originally Posted by Jim19
As i said, there is no evasion. Because you claim Mary is the new ark,does not make it so. If you wish to start a thread to discuss that, i will be more than happy to contribute to the discussion, once i feel i have reached my limits of (name removed by moderator)ut regarding “sinless” and “ever virgin”
So you know better than the early church fathers who started viewing Mary as indeed the ark?
Please refer to my original quote:)
So you are wiser and better guided by the Holy Spirit than the church council that defined Mary’s perpetual virginity and sinlessness?
I do not make (and have never made), claims to wisdom nor an elevated Holy Spirit guidance! I merely put forward what has already been inspiredly wrought by the Holy Spirit (Scripture) if perhaps you do not hold scripture to be Holy Spirit inspired, then that is your perogative:thumbsup:
So…do you think the Holy Spirit that guided the church council in saying that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin…and here you are, 1500 yrs later…you know better than the church council…and the Holy Spirit is guiding you to a different conclusion?
Please refer to the above:)
 
The question can also be explained by the fact Mary was not married yet, her final union had not occurred and could have been up to a year away. We are not even sure if a date had been set.
This is false. They were married. So the question can’t be explained with an untruth.
"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary **your wife **into your home
pocohombre;10801304:
You must address the the cultural backdrop of the development of her virginity.The time it was being talked about, solidified (3-4th century) ,marriage was seen as second class,even evil by some fathers.Sex was dirty, hence how could Mary engage in such action .The Jewish tradition is the opposite where childbearing is blessed and the opposite is cursed. I am not saying the CC made decrees against marriage/sex but some of her theologians did,the same that helped put forth her perpetual virginity.
This is hilarious considering that you do not take into account cultural backdrop of women not working outside of their family protection and that Joseph and Mary were married. You also have ignored the link I gave of the Fathers who supported her virginity in none of them is there a hint that sex was “dirty”
adrift;10794628:
I’ll go out on alimb and disagree, It is not a question of who you belong to ,it is question of what you can do. Do you mean a husband or father could not let their daughters, wives work?
They worked hard just not outside of the family unit. Again you are ignoring the culture of the times.
Just don’t like your “only” in possible answers.Just as she did not say, “get after Joseph” she did not say, “release me from my vow”. Are you suggesting she is reminding God of the vow as if He forgot?
Mary was asking not reminding God if she were to be released from her vow. The answer was no. I have yet to see a plausible answer keeping the circumstances in mind. So yeah so far it is the only answer.
 
We all know the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide Church councils, only individual Christians who happen to be fortunate enough to be able to read and to afford a Bible
Cant say i agree with all the above! But yes it is fortunate that Christians can now not just afford the bible, but as you say can actually read it, when it was a blessing once denied to them:thumbsup:
Never mind that He leads them in thousands of different directions simultaneously.
The Holy Spirit leads as He leads " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts". Isa 55:8-9,
But what i do know is that man would seem to drag those “individual Christians”, “them in thousands of different directions simultaneously”.:eek:
 
You only proove The Imaculate Conception, as you personaly wouldn’t be able to do Holy Virgin works…I always said that protestants opinion on Holy Virgin is a projection of themselves in those circustances. You are not even at a level close of Saint Joseph, who certainly understood it.
Yet more incoherence:confused:
 
You did not explain this passage “I am the handmaid of the Lord”
I am the handmaid (slave/servant) of the Lord. Slave (a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant). Servant (a person in the service of another).
You didn’t explain the cancelation of the initial marriage agreement by Joseph
:confused:
You ask proof. I said tradition. Here you left it in the clouds…stating your personal interpretation.
🤷" A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight". Prov 11;1
 
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