How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

[thewanderer]

Why would we be evangelizing at all if non Catholics are already saved? I guess another way of putting it is…why be Catholic?

Most Protestants I know don’t believe we as Catholics are saved. Heck…that is why this website got founded. Aren’t we to defend the faith? In order to defend the faith we need to speak the truth. (a good defense is a good offense)

Where does VII say that all protestants are instantaneously and necessarily saved by virtue of their protestant faith? Nowhere. You are setting up a strawman.

 

[thewanderer]

Have you ever considered that they are in compatible?

Yes, I am willing to consider that certain parts of them are incompatible, but since the correct way to try and understand them is to first do everything in your power to try and understand them as being compatible and I have yet to find something which I cannot understand as being compatible I assume that they are compatible.

 

[thewanderer]

I’m sorry, but you’re wrong.

Countless popes, creeds, and documents beg to differ.

Well here’s a couple that agree.

From the Catechism of St. Pius X:

Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

From St. Thomas’ Summa, Pt 3 Q69, A4

Reply to Objection 2: As stated above ([1], ad 2; [68], [2]) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly;

From the sixth book of St. Alphonsus’s Moral Theology:

Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or
immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and
of blood. … But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by
contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or
implicit desire for true Baptism of water

From Blessed Pope Pius IX:

"Those afflicted with invincible ignorance of our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and lead a virtuous and dutiful life can attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace. For God who reads comprehensively in every detail the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of men, will not permit, in accordance with His infinite goodness and mercy, anone who is not guilty of voulntary fault to suffer eternal punishment.

Even Archbishop Lefebre recognized this:

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

 

[T_More]

You did not ask me this queston, but here is my answer anyway.

No, I have not, because the Holy Father says that the Vatican II is not “incompatable” with what the Church has always taught.

Are you saying that Benedict XVI is wrong?

Is the holy father infallible when not speaking ex-cathedra? Can you provide an explicit example? Provided that you do, how do we take one popes words that contradict another?

“We must mention another fruitful cause of evil by which the Church is afflicted at present, namely: Indifferentism, that vicious “vice-filled”] manner of thinking which holds that eternal salvation can be obtained by the profession of any faith, provided that a man’s morals are good and decent. Seriously consider the testimony of the Savior that some are against Christ because they are not with Christ, that they scatter who do not gather with Him, and therefore without doubt **they will perish in eternity **unless they hold to the **Catholic faith **and observe it WHOLE and INVIOLATE.” Pope Gregory XVI

or how about this…

“Faith in Christ cannot be maintained pure and unalloyed when it is not protected and supported by faith in the Church. Faith in Christ and faith in the Church stand together. If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from her, he is far from the hope of life and salvation.” Pope Pius XI

or this…

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation; for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Truth, grace, the Sacraments: all the certain norms for our journey to God come from the Church. The Catholic Church is the extension of Jesus Christ in time and space. Outside this Body the Holy Spirit does not give life to anyone. Those who are enemies of unity do not participate in the charity of divine life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. A Christian must fear nothing so much as to be separated from the Body of Christ. If he is separated from Christ’s Body, he is not one of His members; he is not fed by His Spirit.” Pope Paul VI

or…

“No one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he remain within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” Council of Florence, Pope Eugene IV

or…

“I confess that the Lord will give over by a very just judgment to the punishment of eternal and inextinguishable fire the wicked who either **did not know by way of the Lord **or, knowing it, left it when seized by various transgressions, in order that they may burn without end.” Pope Pelagius I

So, in light of tradition, how do I decide as a Catholic which pope(s) I should heed?

 

[mgsk]

Well here’s a couple that agree.

All of those agree with previous statements in concluding that it isn’t the ignorance which is salvific. They don’t reject the need for Faith either (which is an absurd notion).

I don’t deny that there may be some people who are invincibly ignorant of the truth, but their ignorance does not save them. Their ignorance does not remove mortal sin or even Original Sin.

St. Thomas was of the opinion that these truly ignorant people would not be left in their ignorance until death, even if it took an angel sent from God to instruct such a person. I happen to agree with him.

 

[thewanderer]

All of those agree with previous statements in concluding that it isn’t the ignorance which is salvific. They don’t reject the need for Faith either (which is an absurd notion).

I don’t deny that there may be some people who are invincibly ignorant of the truth, but their ignorance does not save them. Their ignorance does not remove mortal sin or even Original Sin.

St. Thomas was of the opinion that these truly ignorant people would not be left in their ignorance until death, even if it took an angel sent from God to instruct such a person. I happen to agree with him.

Well the point being made is that they are able to receive the grace of baptism whether or not their faith is explicit. Whether or not they are instructed in the faith angelicly does not change that.

 

[clem456]

duplicate

 

[clem456]

I’m sorry, but you’re wrong.

Countless popes, creeds, and documents beg to differ.

Lumen Gentium

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13) ** OUCH

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.**

Really don’t understand what the issue is.
The one thing I personally am concerned about is the part that begins “He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity.”

That is the teaching that concerns me. I trust God to take care of the rest according to His good pleasure. And the more the merrier as far as I am concerned. I hope God saves everyone.

 

[T_More]

Well here’s a couple that agree.

From the Catechism of St. Pius X:

While this catechism is overall a useful tool, this is not an infallible decree.

From St. Thomas’ Summa, Pt 3 Q69, A4

“It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation.” St. Thomas Aquinas

“Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema.” Council of Trent

“No one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he remain within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” Council of Florence, Pope Eugene IV

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov.
22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of
the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of
heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547: “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”

Pope St. Zosimus, The Council of Carthage XVI, on Original Sin and Grace: “For when the Lord says: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5], what Catholic will doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a coheir of Christ. For he who lacks the right part will
without doubt run into the left.”

From the sixth book of St. Alphonsus’s Moral Theology:

St. Alphonsus Liguori, Sermons (c. +1760): “How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are
lost.”

St. Alphonsus: “If you are ignorant of the truths of the faith, you are obliged to
learn them. Every Christian is bound to learn the Creed, the Our Father, and the
Hail Mary under pain of mortal sin. Many have no idea of the Most Holy
Trinity, the Incarnation, mortal sin, Judgment, Paradise, Hell, or Eternity; and
this deplorable ignorance damns them.”

St. Alphonsus, Preparation For Death, (c. +1760): “How thankful we ought to be
to Jesus Christ for the gift of faith! What would have become of us if we had
been born in Asia, Africa, America, or in the midst of heretics and schismatics?
He who does not believe is lost. This, then, was the first and greatest grace
bestowed on us: our calling to the true faith. O Savior of the world, what would become of us if Thou hadst not enlightened us? We would have been like our
fathers of old, who adored animals and blocks of stone and wood: and thus we
would have all perished.”

From Blessed Pope Pius IX:

You need to quote the encyclical in it’s entirety:

Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “And here, beloved Sons and Venerable
Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some
Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and
separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life.
Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion AND WHO
ZEALOUSLY KEEPING THE NATURAL LAW AND ITS PRECEPTS ENGRAVED
IN THE HEARTS OF ALL BY GOD, AND BEING READY TO OBEY GOD, LIVE
AN HONEST AND UPRIGHT LIFE, can, by the OPERATING POWER OF DIVINE
LIGHT AND GRACE, attain eternal life since God…will by no means suffer anyone to
be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.”

Pope Pius IX does not say anywhere that the invincibly ignorant can be saved where they are. Rather, he is reiterating that the ignorant, if they cooperate with God’s grace, keep the natural law and respond to God’s call, they can by God’s “operating power of divine light and grace” [being enlightened by the truth of the Gospel] attain eternal life, since God will certainly bring all of his elect to the knowledge of the truth and into the Church by baptism.

Even Archbishop Lefebre recognized this:

He is not the magesterium.

 

[T_More]

Lumen Gentium

Really don’t understand what the issue is.
The one thing I personally am concerned about is the part that begins “He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity.”

That is the teaching that concerns me. I trust God to take care of the rest according to His good pleasure. And the more the merrier as far as I am concerned. I hope God saves everyone.

No one is arguing (at least not me) that there is not elements of tradition (continuity) contained in the documents. All I’m saying is that there are some problematic areas when compared to what the Church has stated in the past, both infallibly and not.

 

[thewanderer]

So you are claiming that it is impossible for anyone to attain salvation without sacramental baptism by water?

 

[T_More]

Well the point being made is that they are able to receive the grace of baptism whether or not their faith is explicit. Whether or not they are instructed in the faith angelicly does not change that.

Grace received from baptism when baptism is received outside the Catholic Church is bestowed upon the individual by God for the sole purpose to bring he/she INTO the Catholic Church. If that baptized one does not evetually come into the Church, we must surmise that he/she did not co-operate with God’s grace. If one is truly open to God and His will, God will bring them into His one true Church.

“All graces given to those outside the Church are given them for the purpose of bringing them inside the Church.” St. Augustine

 

[thewanderer]

Grace received from baptism when baptism is received outside the Catholic Church is bestowed upon the individual by God for the sole purpose to bring he/she INTO the Catholic Church. If that baptized one does not evetually come into the Church, we must surmise that he/she did not co-operate with God’s grace. If one is truly open to God and His will, God will bring them into His one true Church.

“All graces given to those outside the Church are given them for the purpose of bringing them inside the Church.” St. Augustine

Where did I claim that the grace is not ultimately for bringing people into the Catholic Church?

Also, it would be wrong to judge the state of another’s soul… just because they have not yet made it into the Catholic Church does not mean that they have rejected God’s grace. And even if at their death we are unaware of someone belonging to the Church we still cannot know for sure whether or not they were joined to it. So it is wrong to claim that any particular person is/has rejected God’s grace.

 

[T_More]

So you are claiming that it is impossible for anyone to attain salvation without sacramental baptism by water?

The magisterium has claimed this. I’m merely showing what they have said in the past. In case you did not see it, I’ll post it again, along with another quote:

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 154: “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”

Pope St. Leo the Great, Council of Chalcedon, 451: “Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood (1 Pet. 1:2); and let him not skip over the same apostle’s words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot (1 Pet. 1:18). Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin (1 Jn. 1:7);
and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? It is He, Jesus Christ, who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who
give testimony – Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. (1 Jn. 5:4‐8) IN OTHER WORDS, THE SPIRIT OF SANCTIFICATION AND THE BLOOD OF REDEMPTION AND THE WATER OF BAPTISM. THESE THREE ARE ONE
AND REMAIN INDIVISIBLE. NONE OF THEM IS SEPARABLE FROM ITS LINK WITH THE OTHERS.”

This is the famous letter which, when read aloud at the dogmatic Council of Chalcedon, caused all of the fathers of the council (more than 600) to rise to their feet and proclaim: “This is the faith of the Fathers, the faith of the apostles; Peter has spoken through the mouth of Leo.”

 

[T_More]

Where did I claim that the grace is not ultimately for bringing people into the Catholic Church?

Also, it would be wrong to judge the state of another’s soul… just because they have not yet made it into the Catholic Church does not mean that they have rejected God’s grace. And even if at their death we are unaware of someone belonging to the Church we still cannot know for sure whether or not they were joined to it. So it is wrong to claim that any particular person is/has rejected God’s grace.

I am judging no one. I’ve merely shown what the Church has stated in the past. If you’d like, I can show specific statements about this specific subject.

Is the true Church visible or invisible? If God chooses to save someone, it is predicated on us co-operating with His grace, otherwise our freewill would be compromised. That is why God gives us the gift of time.

 

[cap76]

So, in light of tradition, how do I decide as a Catholic which pope(s) I should heed?

Good question. Also, what should the RCC think of Pope Benedict XVI pronouncement of the ‘Year of Faith’ and the ‘Plenary Indulgences’ associated with it?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Is the holy father infallible when not speaking ex-cathedra? Can you provide an explicit example? Provided that you do, how do we take one popes words that contradict another?

So, in light of tradition, how do I decide as a Catholic which pope(s) I should heed?

From Br. JREducation

No law, no pope, no council, no saint, no miracle, no doctor of the Church, no interpretation of scripture other than that which is infallible, can bind a pope. This was established in the Church during the papacy of St. Boniface. Tradition allows for the current Magisterium to rework these laws. They what binds us is what is law today, not what was law yesterday.

Read his posts #2 & 3 in this thread

Hopefully this will “put to bed” anymore lingering doubts in this sub-forum on the “validity” of the Second Vatican Council, but somehow I don’t think that will happen.

 

[mgsk]

Hopefully this will “put to bed” anymore lingering doubts in this sub-forum on the “validity” of the Second Vatican Council, but somehow I don’t think that will happen.

That didn’t really address anything in T More’s post.

 

[thewanderer]

The magisterium has claimed this. I’m merely showing what they have said in the past. In case you did not see it, I’ll post it again, along with another quote:

Well, the magisteriou has also claimed the opposite, it has certainly taught of baptism by blood and baptism by desire. So unless we can find a way to reconcile these teachings it looks like we will have to reject Catholicism’s claim that the Church will always be guided by the Holy Spirit.

ETA: My proposed reconciliation is that people used the words to mean different things at different times. We need to try to understand what meaning people were trying to convey, even if the words they used seem to deny such a meaning when taken completely strictly, language is not perfect and people most certainly do not use it in a perfect way. This has to be taken into account when trying to understand Church teaching.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

That didn’t really address anything in T More’s post.

He asked what Pope he should listen to.
The correct answer- THE CURRENT ONE!!!