How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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He asked what Pope he should listen to.
The correct answer- THE CURRENT ONE!!! 🤷
I have to say, the quote you posted was talking about laws, not opinions on theology. If a theological question has not yet been settled definitively by the magisterium then the faithful are allowed to hold varying opinions, even if they disagree with the current pope’s opinion. 🤷
 
Not surprisingly, no one wants to tackle the magisteriums infallible declarations that refute the arguments presented.
I have read up through post 50 and find circular arguments among the posters that are virtually spinning wheels and not getting to the truth. This topic creates deep divisions in the body of Christ due to not understanding how the Church’s previous teachings can be reconciled with those in Vatican II. Jimmy Akin, CAF’s apologist, has written one of the absolute best articles that I have read anywhere!

Anybody who is earnest about understanding what the Church teaches will put forth the necessary time to read it, for it is rather lengthly. Jimmy made certain to cover all the bases in his efforts to help us translate these seemingly difficult opposites. This is the article, but before you read it, here is an important excerpt.
Some radical traditionalists are not satisfied with the teaching of Vatican II and demand more proof that some who are not in formal union with the Church can be saved. We could cite the works of any number of popes prior to Vatican II to show this (for example, Pius IX’s allocution, Singulari Quadem, given the day after he defined the Immaculate Conception in 1854, or his 1863 encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, or Pius XII’s 1943 encyclical Mystici Corporis), but to make short work of the matter, let us look at an infallible definition from the Council of Trent, whose teachings were formulated in one of the most bitterly polemical and least ecumenical periods in history, and which to radical traditionalists is an absolutely unimpeachable source.
Trent on Desire for Baptism

Follow the link for Akin’s exposition of this most misunderstood, misquoted, and hotly debated aspect of the Council. Then maybe we can have a profitable discussion.
 
Thank you Sirach!!
CAF- you really need to get a ā€œLikeā€ button!! 😃
 
You’re most welcome, Oneofthewomen. Too bad we can’t let Jimmy know - it’s his work. I’m only the messenger.

Due to the hundreds of threads on this topic all over CAF, it seems like it should be a stickie, for sure.
 
I have read up through post 50 and find circular arguments among the posters that are virtually spinning wheels and not getting to the truth. This topic creates deep divisions in the body of Christ due to not understanding how the Church’s previous teachings can be reconciled with those in Vatican II. Jimmy Akin, CAF’s apologist, has written one of the absolute best articles that I have read anywhere!
Sadly for you, and Mr. Akins, that what he quoted in Trent is saying the exact opposite and condemning his position.

Firstly, when he quoted ā€œCanons on the Sacraments in Generalā€ he apparently misread what the canon meant to condemn and saw what he wanted to see. The canon reads:

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 7, Can. 4, On the Sacraments: ā€œIf anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that people obtain the grace of justification from God without them or a desire for them, by faith alone, though all are not necessary for each individual: let him be anathema.ā€

If one would to actually read the canon, it is not stating that the either the scarament of baptism or the desire for it is sufficient but condemns anyone who shall say that both are not necessary for justification. I say again, it is condemning those who would say neither is necessary.

Also he quotes Chapter IV to his own undoing, as it reads truly:

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4: ā€œIn these words there is suggested a description of the justification of the impious, how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).ā€

Mr. Akins is reading the mistranslated version of Denzinger on this text where he read and cited in his article: ā€œcannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for itā€¦ā€ Is actually ā€œcannot take place without the laver of regeneration or a desire for itā€¦ā€ As the Latin used in the text is ā€œsineā€ which translates as ā€œwithoutā€ not ā€œexcept throughā€.

Another thing to note in this text is that it follows up with John 3:5 with ā€œas it is written.ā€ Meaning we are to read John 3:5 at face value, AS IT IS WITTEN.

Now to both texts using ā€œor,ā€ it is not as the advocate of baptism of desire thinks it to be as in an 'either/or." Councils in the past and this very Council of Trent as well, have used ā€œorā€, which is ā€œAutā€ in Latin, not in the context of opposites to demonstrate an either/or but a continuation of necessity, such as:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, ā€œCantate Domino,ā€ 1441, ex cathedra:

ā€œThe Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews [aut] or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.ā€

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Introduction: ā€œā€¦ strictly forbidding that anyone henceforth may presume to believe, preach or teach, otherwise than is defined and declared by this present decree.ā€

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Sess. 21, Chap. 2: ā€œTherefore holy mother Church… has decreed that it be considered as a law, which may not be repudiated or be changed at will without the authority of the Church.ā€

Likewise, Sess. 6, Chap. 4 and Session 7, Can. 4 are to be read in the same light.

This isn’t a private conclusion either, Latin scholars have confirmed this, and I suggest you contact one for confirmation. Also to note, no theological manual of this council has ever rendered these texts to support the thesis of baptism of desire.

This should be obvious to anyone who has studied the classical laws of thought; identify, exclude the middle, and draw out a non-contradiction. For if the texts were to truly mean what the advocates of Baptism of Desire think it meant, the texts would collapse on themselves in contradiction since it has not truly identified its own proposition. Also in the study of logic would render this assertion of baptism of desire incoherent since the definition of the sacrament did not include genus and differentia and as well the law of MECE would find this interpretation of the texts incoherent.
 
Sorry to tell you this, Trent is condemning Baptism of Desire and those who would advocate ā€œimplicit desire.ā€ As if we need this decree though to refute ā€œimplicit desireā€, logic should be sufficient to refute this proposition since it is a contradiction in terms, or oxymoron. But with modern philosophy that deviates from truth and proper thinking, truly anything is possible. Also, if it were not condemning these things than the Canons on Baptism, specifically II & V would be meaningless as they read:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Mostly I’ll receive responses that’ll refute by using a Hegelian approach to texts or perhaps a Deconstructionalist point of view, but to their own detriment. Since the former requires the person to deny truth a priori and the latter requires the person to deny essence, identity or distinction. (notice how I used ā€œorā€ šŸ˜‰ )

Let Pope Leo’s the Great’s words ring true again on this thread, which are binding and dogmatic according to,

Pope St. Gelasius, Decretal, 495: ā€œAlso the epistle of blessed Leo the Pope to Flavian… if anyone argues concerning the text of this one even in regard to one iota, and does not receive it in all respects reverently, let him be anathema.ā€

Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, Council of Chalcedon, 451: ā€œLet him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that ā€œsanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s bloodā€; and let him not skip over the same apostle’s words, ā€œknowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot.ā€ Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: ā€œand the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sinā€; and again, ā€œThis is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? It is he, Jesus Christ who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony–Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one.ā€ In other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the blood of redemption and the water of baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others. The reason is that it is by this faith that the Catholic Church lives and grows, by believing that neither the humanity is without true divinity nor the divinity without true humanity.ā€
 
Well said, Trent11. These are points I was eventually going to get to myself. That saved me alot of typing!
 
This isn’t a private conclusion either, Latin scholars have confirmed this, and I suggest you contact one for confirmation. Also to note, no theological manual of this council has ever rendered these texts to support the thesis of baptism of desire.
Ironically, one can hardly find anyone in the Church at large who can thoroughly understand Latin, despite VII stating that Latin should retain pride of place in the language of the Church.
 
Now to both texts using ā€œor,ā€ it is not as the advocate of baptism of desire thinks it to be as in an 'either/or."
While I understand that Aut has been used at times to mean an inclusive or, since Vel is actually the inclusive Or in Latin, and Aut the exclusive, but why in the world would we start off by assuming that it is meant in this particular instance in the inclusive manner?
 
Sorry to tell you this, Trent is condemning Baptism of Desire and those who would advocate ā€œimplicit desire.ā€ As if we need this decree though to refute ā€œimplicit desireā€, logic should be sufficient to refute this proposition since it is a contradiction in terms, or oxymoron. But with modern philosophy that deviates from truth and proper thinking, truly anything is possible.
lol, so you are saying that St. Thomas was just too stupid to notice that implicit baptism by desire is an oxymoron? šŸ˜‰

Sorry, I know I’m not addressing all of your points, I just thought this was funny. 😃
 
I would encourage anyone looking to see how Vatican II can be interpreted in the light of all of Church Tradition to check out the Catechism by Fr. John Hardon, SJ. It is a wonderful Catechism and does a good job of trying the council into the rest of Church history and teachings. amazon.com/The-Catholic-Catechism-Contemporary-Teachings/dp/038508045X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352954944&sr=8-1&keywords=hardon+catechism

In fact, tying V2 and prior Church Tradition together was one of the main thrusts of the Catechism.
John Cardinal Wright in speaking about the Hardon Catechism:
In the wake of the Council, and under the aegis of acting in its ā€œspiritā€ sometimes without reference to what it actually said, not a few aberrations, exaggerations, and deficiencies began to creep into textbooks and classrooms of some parts of the Church’s teaching structure…

…The attempt to present a ā€œsource bookā€ has necessarily resulted in an extensive, though easily read, text with many attractive features. For instance, the Bible is given special prominence in the presentation of the doctrine of the faith. The latest insights offered by the Council are blended with the unchanging dogmas of the Church to present a clear and logical unfolding of the teaching of the Catholic Church from the apostles to our own times.
 
I’d say anything by Fr Hardon is rock solid and error free. šŸ‘
 
lol, so you are saying that St. Thomas was just too stupid to notice that implicit baptism by desire is an oxymoron? šŸ˜‰

Sorry, I know I’m not addressing all of your points, I just thought this was funny. 😃
St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection‐ ā€œIt is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith. St. Thomas replies‐ It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance. In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to himā€¦ā€

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. II, 28, Q. 1, A. 4, ad 4: ā€œIf a man born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or sending a teacher to him.ā€

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: ā€œIf a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is.ā€

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: ā€œAfter grace had been revealed, both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above.ā€

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: ā€œAnd consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity.ā€

Looks like he saw the logic of it after all as St. Thomas rejected any notion of implicit faith and is used mostly to refute the invincible ignorance thesis. Perhaps you meant explicit desire of baptism? In that case, he did support such a thing but his only source for a foundational argument was St. Augustine & St. Ambrose. One has to wonder if he did so out of favoritism since a number of other early Fathers said the exact opposite (such as St. Justin, St. Hermas, St. Gregory Nazianz, etc…)? Or did he lack the texts at his own time that demonstrate the very same two Fathers contradict what they said, as we read,

St. Ambrose (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 2: 1324):

ā€œā€˜Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.ā€

St. Ambrose, De mysteriis:

ā€œYou have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ā€˜unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5] Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.ā€

St Augustine ( Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 3: 1536):

ā€œā€¦ God does not forgive sins except to the baptized.ā€

I’ll give the good Angelic Doctor the benefit of the doubt that he lacked these writings since these two Fathers were inconsistent with their own theological opinions.

As for your observation on aut and vel, I believe aut is being used correctly since being baptized and desiring it are mutually exclusive. I would think your case would be solid if vel was used, since this lexicon reads:

A Copious and Critical English-Latin Lexicon dixit:
OR, aut; vel; ve (enclitic): sive (or seu; rare in Cicero; common in poets and later prose writers). NB Aut stands in disjunctive sentences when one clause is entirely apposed to the other; vel when the opposition is only partial; ve is usually connected with single words, not with clauses, denoting reciprocal exclusion; sive, seu, or si, with vel, implies a difference merely in name or in the form of expression; e.g., audendum est aliquid universsi, aut omnia singulia patienda; de nostris rebus satis, vel etiam nimium multa; non sentiunt viri fortes in acie vulnera; vel, si sentiunt, se mori malunt; esse dico ea quae cerni tangive possunt; Minerva sive Tritonia. We may say that aut distinguishes, vel co-ordinates, sive denotes synonyms, ve is a milder vel. Aut distinguishes things and expressions which are diametrically opposed to each other, or, at least, are considered as widely different; vel implied that it is indifferent which of several things takes place, or which of several propositions is affirmed; it matters not whether they be different or alike; vel, for the most part, distinguishes only single words, more rarely whole clauses; and when it does so, it implied only a slight or nominal distinction: sive is used, (1) when, with reference to one and the same subject, a choice is given between several names and predicates; or, (2) when a speaker or writer, himself in doubt or suspense, leaves the choise with the hearer or reader …… Either - or, aut - aut; vel - vel; sive - sive; or seu - seu NB sive - sive usually with the indicative unless the sense requires a subjunctive.

If the desire for it had the same of effect as being baptized then there would be a slight ā€œnominal distinction.ā€ But since they are mutually exclusive, they are both necessary as Canon 4 stated.
 
I’d say anything by Fr Hardon is rock solid and error free. šŸ‘
By all accounts that I have seen, Fr. Hardon was great Jesuit Priest, a model of orthodoxy, and a very good man. What I know from first hand experience is that he has written a wonderful catechism. Its much deeper then the Compendium of the CCC, more clearly written than the CCC, and has significantly more focus on the historical development of doctrine and Church Tradition than the US Catechism for Adults.
 
…quote]

My point was in reference to the quote I brought up earlier by St. Thomas where he explictly talks about implicit baptism of desire as an option. 🤷

I am also still waiting for a reason we should assume that the texts refered to used Aut in an inclusive way despite the fact that in correct latin it is an exclusive ā€œOrā€. The fact that it was misused/used in an unusual manner in a couple of places by Church authorities is hardly sufficient reason to assume that it could not possibly have been used in an exclusive manner. 🤷
 
By all accounts that I have seen, Fr. Hardon was great Jesuit Priest, a model of orthodoxy, and a very good man. What I know from first hand experience is that he has written a wonderful catechism. Its much deeper then the Compendium of the CCC, more clearly written than the CCC, and has significantly more focus on the historical development of doctrine and Church Tradition than the US Catechism for Adults.
Thanks for the recommendation Jason. I may have to get a copy.

EDIT: btw, I know of Fr Hardon from his articles on the Real Presence site.
therealpresence.org/archives/archives.htm
 
My point was in reference to the quote I brought up earlier by St. Thomas where he explictly talks about implicit baptism of desire as an option. 🤷
And else where he rejected such a notion. Either he changed his opinion or was inconsistent, sounds like the very two Fathers he used for his argument of desire. I believe you have just demonstrated perfectly, as I hoped you would, why we only are to trust our infallible mother, rather than the fallible children of her.
I am also still waiting for a reason we should assume that the texts refered to used Aut in an inclusive way despite the fact that in correct latin it is an exclusive ā€œOrā€. The fact that it was misused/used in an unusual manner in a couple of places by Church authorities is hardly sufficient reason to assume that it could not possibly have been used in an exclusive manner. 🤷
I replied to this at the end of my post if by chance you missed it.
 
Wonderful sophistry, Trent11. I was expecting it. Nothing new under the sun. We’ve seen the whole gamut of your prooftexts here before. I know the one about the wolves by heart. 😃 I’m not sure I have the stamina to want to tackle this discussion again. Carry on! You fit the description of Mr. Akin’s traditionallst perfectly. :rolleyes:
 
And else where he rejected such a notion. Either he changed his opinion or was inconsistent, sounds like the very two Fathers he used for his argument of desire. I believe you have just demonstrated perfectly, as I hoped you would, why we only are to trust our infallible mother, rather than the fallible children of her.
Well I didn’t see any of those posts as contradictory to the quote that I brought up. Although that was kind of besides the point, the point was that you think it is a completely obvious and self-contradictory position, yet it is one that St. Thomas himself held, even if it were true that he later rejected it. I thought it ironic that you claimed that a position held by someone as brilliant as St. Thomas was an obivous contradiction. 🤷
I replied to this at the end of my post if by chance you missed it.
I’m not here trying to prove one side or the other. I am honestly asking. No, your answer was not sufficient to eradicate any possibility that it was used at this occasion as it is normally used. Just because you have a handful of examples where it was used in an irregular manner does not mean that it is used in an irregular manner in any other particular case you choose to bring up. I find the fact that you have no other reason to hold that it is impossible that it was used the way it is supposed to be used very telling, it means that your opinion about this matter is in part based on the fact that you have already made your mind up, not because of an actual solid argument from the facts themselves.
 
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