How do you even begin debunking reincarnation?

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illusion_buster said:
the spirit and power. This is reincarnation - the reincarnation of the spirit. The Bible itself states that John the Baptist possessed the spirit that had previously lived in, and as, the man Elijah - not his physical being and memory, but his spirit. What you seem to be saying is something different. Putting you own slat toward it, so to speak. I can’t see where anything you have posted contradicts the above? I am looking for unbias discussion. And I would like to read MORE re: nicodemus. The more information on the subject, the more chance to see the THREAD of truth amoung the dros.
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Hi illusion, I didn’t follow the thread closely, I just saw this last post of yours and i’m not sure if the blue text above is what you believe or what somebody else in this thread believes…

Anyway, John the Baptist is not Elijah or a reincarnation thereof, neither in spirit nor body. This is the Catholic teaching on it (the LDS have a very slight expansion to the title Elijah as opposed to the person Elijah but the essence is the same with Catholic teaching). In the Book of John, John the Baptist denies that he is Elijah. In this event, John the Baptist affirms that he is not the person Elijah. In Matthew, Jesus stated that Elijah has returned which the disciples believed to be John the Baptist. Jesus is referring to the role of an Elijah - the herald for the Messiah.

Reincarnation is not compatible with Jesus Christ’s teaching of man’s journey to salvation. So, if you’re talking to a non-Christian, debunking re-incarnation is not going to be a good exercise. If you’re talking to a Christian, then you can present any passage in the scriptures about the afterlife as your evidence.

P.S. I don’t remember who said something about “How missionaries can convert Buddhists” or some such.

Missionaries don’t convert anybody. Only the Holy Spirit can convert. For if a person opens himself up to the Spirit, He can soften his heart and open his mind and prepare him for the message that Jesus is the Christ - even if he is Buddhist.
 
illusion_buster said:
Thankyou for your response. The quotes I provided are NOT MY belief as I am not taking any side SO FAR, as to the truth or un-truth of reincarnation being possible. So I haven’t 'ignored" anything. To the contrary, I am asking for ALL THOUGHTS for and against. That is what a discussion is all about. In saying this, your explaination for the ‘spirit’ still doesn’t explain the sections stated as:- the spirit and power. This is reincarnation - the reincarnation of the spirit. The Bible itself states that John the Baptist possessed the spirit that had previously lived in, and as, the man Elijah - not his physical being and memory, but his spirit. What you seem to be saying is something different. Putting you own slat toward it, so to speak. I can’t see where anything you have posted contradicts the above? I am looking for unbias discussion. And I would like to read MORE re: nicodemus. The more information on the subject, the more chance to see the THREAD of truth amoung the dros.
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I’d like to apologize for the belligerent tone. It was rash and uncalled for. Please forgive me.

That being said, could it not be said that the “spirit” spoken of that is shared by Elijah and John the Baptist is not any human soul, but rather the Holy Spirit?

As for the Gospel of Nicodemus, there are two parts. With the link I am sending you, keep hitting the “next” button as you read until you finish reading the First Greek Form. Once you have finished that, follow the second link, which will take you to the second part of the Gospel:

First part: Acts of Pilate (First Greek Form) : ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vii.xii.i.html
Second part: Descent of Christ into Hell[in this case Hades is distinct from Hell and is rather identified with Sheol, the Hebrew realm of the dead, also known as the "Bosom of Abraham] (Greek Form) : ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vii.xiv.i.html

Notice the description of the second part of who is in hell. And notice how John the Baptist is in Sheol, while Elijah is in Heaven, and especially take note of just who is said to be in Sheol.
 
I found your web links extremely interesting, and recall many of it’s extracts being told to me when I was young. Is this gospel recognized by Catholic theology? or is it considered to be heretical?
 
illusion_buster said:
I found your web links extremely interesting, and recall many of it’s extracts being told to me when I was young. Is this gospel recognized by Catholic theology? or is it considered to be heretical?
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It is recognized as completely legitimate by the Orthodox Church, and consequently by the Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Rite. Icons such as this one are inspired directly by the Gospel of Nicodemus, so it is enshrined in Byzantine theology, which the Roman Church sees as entirely correct, orthodox, and complimentary to Latin theology. Several of our hymns sung during the Easter season have some nods to the Gospel, and the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom, recited every year at Easter in every (Byzantine Rite) Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church, makes several paraphrases and references to it. So, as far as I can tell, it’s considered valid and is recognized as a part of Holy Tradition, the thing is that you just don’t ordinarily find it in your Bible because it’s not canonical.

All that said, I believe the Gospel of Nicodemus is entirely worth looking into when establishing whether or not Reincarnation ever was a mainstream Christian view, and if Reincarnation is even compatible with Christian eschatology and belief about the afterlife.
 
“Apart from his brother, Warnie Lewis, C.S. Lewis’ best friend was Owen Barfield and from 1927 they went on three or four day walking tours together in the spring. His great contribution was to persuade C. S. LEWIS, and through him** TOLKIEN**, that myth and metaphor has always had a central place in our language and literature. When he was working in London (1931) he occasionally joined the INKLINGS when he came to Oxford. Barfield wrote… a volume of essays, *Romanticism Comes of Age *(1945). Though he joined the Church of England (about 1946), he continued to believe in reincarnation (which C.S. Lewis said no Christian could possibly believe in) and he later wrote several books on Anthroposophy (1957-1971).”
 
how do you debunk any theory that is not consistant with faith? let me help in this as I was taught to believe in reincarnation since childhood and have had many prayers and answers given ( i am sure) by Our Lord.
first: with God anything is possible- you can’t argue a theoretical point unless you truly understand both sides.

In Christianity reincarnation would be a mute point because by belief in Christ we are mercifully saved from sin so there is no karmic ripple that would nessesitate a return to earth.

second: remember that every spiritual and natural thing is in essence created for and by God , including you and I and also realize that reincarnation allows it’s followers to step back while others are suffering because their suffering is “karma” that they have to work through.

This is truly an evil thing- to allow children to suffer in agony here on Earth as a form of punishment as dictated to us by a cruel and uncaring God in a never ending loop of reward and punishment!
It is an attempt to decieve; and justify selfishness on the part of those who could and should help, but don’t really want to… in other words it absolves their conscience.

Man, I could go on and on regarding the evils of Karma and reincarnation…
 
I went through a phase earlier in life when I believed in reincarnation. Here’s how I would start:
  1. Very few people have some kind of memory that they can’t explain, like what life was like in a different time. Is that really evidence that they have lived before, or just evidence that they aquired information through some means that can’t be explaned.
  2. There is no time to God, so perhaps these people are simply picking up on some part of Gods mind (I know it sounds crazy, but think of it as a universal consciousness)
  3. Most reincarnation books are extreemly insubstantial. The one reasearcher who did try to prove reincarnation, Ian Stvenson, is constantly misquoted. In his book “20 Cases sugestive of reincarnation” what he says is that out of 10,000 + cases he reasearched only 20 cases bear further investigation, yet the new agers will talk like he proved reincarnation.
  4. Most reincarnation memories, paticularly in children, come from cultures that believe in reincarnation.
  5. There is no reincarnation in the Scriptures. I know John the Baptist was Elijah returned, but this is a metaphore. The bible teaches resurection, heavin and hell.
If you need any help e-mail me. I’ve read a great deal on this subject and used to be a believer. I’m not saying I’m an expert, but I’ll try to help.
 
Revelation 21:1 KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away ; and there was no more sea.
 
Also, does she believe in Karma, and if so has she read the Dhamamapada and the Bhagavad gita? Reincarnation isn’t cool, it’s actally a form of hell. If you encure a karmic debt you will pay a karmic debt, even if you have to be incarnated 100,000 times. There is no forgiveness, none.
 
In Christianity reincarnation would be a mute point because by belief in Christ we are mercifully saved from sin so there is no karmic ripple that would nessesitate a return to earth.

What if there is a thread of truth to the theory? enough to run rampant with?.. What if reincarnation is totally illusion made up by mankind to pay for the guilt of the sin of 'Adam & Eve"? What if this untrue belief and others, (like the need to sacrifice to the gods or appeasing the gods) was what Jesus came to SAVE us from? The belief in such MAKING it REAL for us so long as we BELIEVED it to be true. That we didn’t have to believe in neverending karma anymore and that to ESCAPE, all we had to do was believe in Him as He now represented us, all of us, to the Father as innocent?

second: remember that every spiritual and natural thing is in essence created for and by God ,
THIS IS TRUTH!!! So how could God create something Evil??? I’m thinking HE didn’t… Adam & Eves imagination did… And remember, Man was made in the image of God… so man can create in a fashion, be it just illusion. Possibly it was THIS ILLUSION Jesus came to erase.

reincarnation allows it’s followers to step back while others are suffering because their suffering is “karma” that they have to work through. Yes! THIS IS THE UNTRUTH. Though we all walk our own solitary road and will stand alone before the throne of God at the end. Jesus taught us of compassion & forgiveness… the RIGHT response to our fellow mans plight. We DON’T have to do ANYTHING but be baptized & believe in Christ to be saved. But when we do, we are a new creation nolonger caught in any imaginary “sin” cycle. Isn’t THIS the Good News?

This is truly an evil thing- to allow children to suffer in agony here on Earth as a form of punishment as dictated to us by a cruel and uncaring God in a never ending loop of reward and punishment!
Those who believe in reincarnation have been misled by the devil within…Reincarnation IS a FALSE BELIEF based on WRONG INTERPRETATIONS and OBSERVENCES. If they haven’t got this theory to pass explaination or ‘BLAME’ to, What then, or Who then, can they set blame to for those “suffering children”?? Surely not a loving God?! If not God?? then who??

It is an attempt to decieve; and justify selfishness on the part of those who could and should help, but don’t really want to… in other words it absolves their conscience. I don’t know about that. I think they are resolved to the belief because that’s were they see the most truth & evidence. (all be it misinterpreted evidence). Jesus said “The TRUTH shall set you free”. That implies that they are firstly BOUND. Isn’t this a discription of reincarnation? Being bound in a self created spiral belief. “How a man thinkth so will he be”…Couldn’t belief in such ideas in a way CREATE it or MANIFEST it for themselves?

Man, I could go on and on regarding the evils of Karma and reincarnation…] Not ALL karma is evil… The idea of “what goes around comes around” was taught by Jesus but not in the same words. “those who live by the sword, die by the sword”. Same meaning! I believe things have to first have an element of truth to BE believed and then add human interpretation and we have reincarnation…
 
Debunking reincarnation from another faith wouldn’t be easy without some background and a foundational basis to exchange ideas on. The only simple way would be through the power of the Holy Spirit and a coming to faith. But if you had to have an intellectual exchange this would need to be handled differently.

Though the words may be different between cultures, the primary concept of ideas will still be the same. There would need to be an agreement on things seen or felt as being the same, developing a common ground. Those that believe in reincarnation will also believe in ghost and spirits just as Christians do. They would also feel that these spirits would have the same origin like ours. They usually would also understand the concept of séances and raising the dead spirits and I’ve never seen one that truly believes in reincarnation not believe in ghosts.

The question could be noted as why so many around the world might be the same person of interest. How could all these that say they have lived before, be the same person in each of us. Noting that while under similar circumstances such as séances, and contacting spirits we could all speak with the same spirit from different places in the world. By speaking to the dead, the dead would be able to recite their life stories or languages to any that will listen. And just as we know sensitive mediums here can reach out to several spirits at once so would the mediums of other cultures believing in reincarnation and therefore recite many stories of past lives. They can be shown that these remnants of other lives are really contacts with deceptive spirits that have existed once before. Weather contacted through séances, table tipping, writings, or various ceremonies and not the existence of reincarnated lives.

Please review the method St Paul used (Acts 17:23) while convincing the “Men of Athens” concerning the “Unknown God”.
 
I don’t see why a Catholic would even want to debunk Reincarnation because of Invincible Ignorance. Just wondering on this one.

If Reincarnation and therefore Karma is true then Christians will go up to the next higher level because of good works and service to others. If Hebrews 9:27 is true then those who died without Christ will end up in “eternal punishment”. So, ask them where they would want to place their bet.
 
You don’t. I believe that we live in the Matrix. Debunk that. (Joking)
 
Those of you who reject authentic Christianity, and its accompanying Scriptures, are doing so because you think it’s uncool.

Come on, admit it. You reject it because it’s the “hip” thing to do; ditch that old do-gooder junk for a better-sounding philosophy. Have some honesty; show some insight. Otherwise, you are fooling yourself.

Karma takes the place of Christ’s atonement for sin. It basically makes us responsible for making up for our own sins. It denies the power and purpose of the Crucifixion and Death. It is the opposite of humility, a necessary ingredient in our salvation. The attitude it promotes is the center of current trends in thought.

I personally believe reincarnation is a demonic invention. I defy anyone to prove, by virtue of what it has done for society, that it is a better path to anything.

A coworker of mine believes Jesus taught reincarnation and that His real words are locked up in the Vatican archives somewhere. Hidden on purpose, of course. This is the type of thinking people resort to in an attempt to justify their twisted thinking.
 
I think there is good reason to believe in reincarnation. Dr. Ian Stevenson spent about 40 years of his professional career amassing evidence for it: it’s the best available explanation for a number of widely observed psychological/physiological phenomena.

Just a quick note about the author of Hebrews…

This author claims that it’s appointed for men to die once in Heb. 9:27. But, the Gospels inform us that Jesus raised several people from the dead. So, either they didn’t die again, or there are exceptions to the rule.
 
Perplexity said:
This author claims that it’s appointed for men to die once in Heb. 9:27. But, the Gospels inform us that Jesus raised several people from the dead. So, either they didn’t die again, or there are exceptions to the rule.
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They died again, most likely. God personally coming in and resurrecting you to show His glory is quite a different ballgame.

Plus, even if we do see resurrection in the Bible, it’s a very, very different thing from reincarnation. Do not conflate the two.
 
Shiranui117 said:
They died again, most likely. God personally coming in and resurrecting you to show His glory is quite a different ballgame.

Plus, even if we do see resurrection in the Bible, it’s a very, very different thing from reincarnation. Do not conflate the two.
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hmm, one of the most common objections to reincarnation is that it entails a person undergoing multiple deaths over time, but, the bible says man only dies once (e.g., Heb. 9:27), so I was responding to this by saying there are exceptions to this, so it’s not a good objection to reincarnation.
 
Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard , nor perceived by the ear , neither hath the eye seen , O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written , Eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 
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