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Porknpie
Guest
Coptic -Ad,
When you figure out the Trinity let me know. Come back and explain it to me…
I’d also like to hear from AD on how Southern Baptists differ from:
- American Baptist Association
- Alliance of Baptists
- Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
- Church on the Rock International
- the Triennial Convention…which turned into the Northern Baptist Convention which turned into the American Baptist Churches USA. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triennial_Convention
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CopticChristian
Guest
Pork,
We should be grateful that Ad is searching for the truth…and in finding it he shall find that there is freedom…much better than discussing the fantasy of an apostasy.
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jmcrae
Guest
Actually, it did. The first word of the Old Testament was written down more than 300 years after the death of Abraham, by even the most conservative estimates - which means that the stories that we find in the Book of Genesis were transmitted orally by means of Oral Tradition (songs, prayers, poetry) for several generations before being written down. (And except for Biblical literalists, nobody claims to know how much time passed between the death of Adam and Eve, and the birth of Abraham - those stories are much, much older.)
The first word of the New Testament didn’t take quite as long, but we had a Church, and Mass, and Catholic Bishops for about 25 years before St. Paul started writing letters from prison - and it wasn’t for another two decades that anyone thought of writing down the sayings of Jesus, and composing the Gospels. Up to that point, everything was transmitted orally.
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choliks
Guest
You’re welcome. But it’s sad that you skipped on so many points especially on the dangerous attempt at equating Scripture with God. It’s like you were trying to insert another person in Trinity.
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Porknpie
Guest
Sad that he left. Since I had already popped the popcorn, I decided to eat it anyway. I thought this was going to be a good and long dialogue.You’re welcome. But it’s sad that you skipped on so many points especially on the dangerous attempt at equating Scripture with God. It’s like you were trying to insert another person in Trinity.
I’m at post 777…is that the opposite of 666?
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choliks
Guest
I think he felt his spider-sense tingling and bailed out.Sad that he left. Since I had already popped the popcorn, I decided to eat it anyway. I thought this was going to be a good and long dialogue.
I’m at post 777…is that the opposite of 666?
No! Haven’t you heard? The opposite of 666 is 999.
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090309200647AAguaiT
po18guy
Well-known member
AD70, by the very bible itself, there were no bible Churches. Jesus did not leave a bible, but rather, Apostles. We are not denigrating or downgrading the bible one bit! However, it was never viewed as a “sole rule” for faith until over 1,500 years after Christ. Caution flag.
If you cannot abide the Catholic view, go to the Eastern Orthodox for their views on scripture and tradition - they exactly parallel the Catholic as to the founding and perpetuation of Christ’s Church.
For nearing 2,000 years, both have solidly and consistently maintained that first there were Apostles, who handed on their faith to succeeding generations.
One last thought: If the bible truly, clearly and unambiguously speaks to man’s hearts without need of interpretation, why do no protestant denominations agree? They disagree even on the Trinity. But, who interprets? Jesus gave to some the authority to interpret even before the New Testment was written. He opened their minds to the scriptures (Luke 24:45).
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AD70
Guest
1 Timothy 3:15 - the pillar and ground of truth?
This verse is often quoted - or rather misquoted - by Catholic apologists to bolster the supposed authority and the infallibility of the Roman Catholic magisterium. They seek to impress by quoting Scripture, hoping of course, that the reader would not take a moment of reflection to notice that the verse says nothing about infallible interpretation or that it is not referring to the college of Roman Catholic bishops.
The apostle Paul says to Timothy: “These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:14,15).
The apostle clearly identifies the church as God’s household, and therefore it comprises every true Christian, not only their leaders. The whole church - all Christians - are collectively the pillar and ground of truth.
So, what does this passage mean? Paul is using a building imagery. A pillar rests on immoveable ground, and together they support a structure. Thus the church upholds and supports the truth revealed by God. God’s people are called to preserve the pure teaching of His Word, which is the truth. It is their duty to be light in this dark world. But that does not imply that the church fulfils this great duty perfectly and infallibly. Even in the New Testament, we read about churches (such as the Corinthian and the Galatian churches) which had embraced some serious mistakes and errors. Similarly, Christian teachers are liable to err. James writes “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement,” and immediately gives the reason for his admonition, “For we stumble in many things” (James3:1,2). St. James humbly admits that even he, who was one of the greatest teachers in the early church, was liable to make many mistakes. We can also mention the apostle Peter who led others astray by his inconsistent behaviour (Galatians 2:11-21).
Yet despite its many shortcomings, the church is called to be the ground and pillar of truth. That is why the apostle Paul writes to Timothy and gives him various instructions about the life and discipline of the church (how to deal with false doctrines, prayer, qualifications for elders and deacons, etc.), so that the church will be strong to fulfill its tremendous responsibility.
You will undoubtedly realize why Paul calls the church, and not the Bible, “the pillar and ground” of truth. Being the Word of God, the Bible is not merely “the pillar and ground,” but the “truth” itself. Jesus prayed to the Father: “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is truth” (John 17:17). In other words, the mission of the church is to faithfully uphold, defend and proclaim the teaching of the Bible. It follows that an indispensable mark of the true church is its faithfulness to the Gospel. A “church” that has departed from the truth and is teaching another “gospel” is a cracked pillar and sandy ground.
This verse is often quoted - or rather misquoted - by Catholic apologists to bolster the supposed authority and the infallibility of the Roman Catholic magisterium. They seek to impress by quoting Scripture, hoping of course, that the reader would not take a moment of reflection to notice that the verse says nothing about infallible interpretation or that it is not referring to the college of Roman Catholic bishops.
The apostle Paul says to Timothy: “These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:14,15).
The apostle clearly identifies the church as God’s household, and therefore it comprises every true Christian, not only their leaders. The whole church - all Christians - are collectively the pillar and ground of truth.
So, what does this passage mean? Paul is using a building imagery. A pillar rests on immoveable ground, and together they support a structure. Thus the church upholds and supports the truth revealed by God. God’s people are called to preserve the pure teaching of His Word, which is the truth. It is their duty to be light in this dark world. But that does not imply that the church fulfils this great duty perfectly and infallibly. Even in the New Testament, we read about churches (such as the Corinthian and the Galatian churches) which had embraced some serious mistakes and errors. Similarly, Christian teachers are liable to err. James writes “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement,” and immediately gives the reason for his admonition, “For we stumble in many things” (James3:1,2). St. James humbly admits that even he, who was one of the greatest teachers in the early church, was liable to make many mistakes. We can also mention the apostle Peter who led others astray by his inconsistent behaviour (Galatians 2:11-21).
Yet despite its many shortcomings, the church is called to be the ground and pillar of truth. That is why the apostle Paul writes to Timothy and gives him various instructions about the life and discipline of the church (how to deal with false doctrines, prayer, qualifications for elders and deacons, etc.), so that the church will be strong to fulfill its tremendous responsibility.
You will undoubtedly realize why Paul calls the church, and not the Bible, “the pillar and ground” of truth. Being the Word of God, the Bible is not merely “the pillar and ground,” but the “truth” itself. Jesus prayed to the Father: “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is truth” (John 17:17). In other words, the mission of the church is to faithfully uphold, defend and proclaim the teaching of the Bible. It follows that an indispensable mark of the true church is its faithfulness to the Gospel. A “church” that has departed from the truth and is teaching another “gospel” is a cracked pillar and sandy ground.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Ad,
In the Greek and in John “word/logos” means Christ not bible…think this through again…
interlinearbible.org/john/17-17.htm
po18guy
Well-known member
You mean the college that approved the bible which you hold?
po18guy
Well-known member
It truly is beginning to sound like bible idolatry - sadly.
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Porknpie
Guest
AD -
Where in 1 Timothy 3:15 does St Paul say churches? You are misinterpreting the text to bolster your view…
St. Ignatius was taught by the apostle St. John…who was taught by Jesus himself. Is he still building imagery as you contend? See that the Eucharist requires a valid ordination…why would this be if it is only symbolic?
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains *. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
Or what of Cyril of Jerusalem? My point here us there is consistency over time for the Catholic view.
"And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is—for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’—nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God" (ibid., 18:26). *
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
I hope whoever owns the rights to the movie Legend sues them. Not helpful and done in poor taste.
po18guy
Well-known member
Seems clear enough. Please read 2 Peter 3:15-16 and think your opinion over.
So, the Catholic Church is not infallible, but AD70 is?
So, there is a hidden message in this plain, declarative sentence? By what authority do you know and declare this?The apostle Paul says to Timothy1 Timothy 3:14,15).
You see this in Paul’s words simply because you must see it in Paul’s words. It does not say “collectively” - you have added opinion to scripture here.
The bible is not God. Jesus Christ - the Word made Flesh - is God. By what authority do you define “pure teaching”? Have you been chosen by God, and no one else? Since Catholics and Orthodox Christians also have bibles (and more bible than you do), by what authority do you declare them wrong and yourself to be right?
Christ proclaimed the Church as the ultimate authority. Have you over-ruled Christ here?
Amen! Exactly why Christ did not found a bible. Matthew 18:17, Acts 15 again.
But AD70 makes no errors? If James stumbled, then you have fallen, have you not? Christ did not choose you as an apostle, did He?
Because Jesus Christ taught Paul that it was? I am certain that you have another ‘twist’ on this. Well did Peter prophesy.
The Truth is Jesus Christ. So, the bible is equal to Christ? Teel me that you are not serious about this. To equate the (partial) written word with the (complete) Word made flesh - Jesus Christ - is to make the bible your Savior. Is that true? Please be careful here, as you are treading a fine line that separates veneration from idol worship. The bible tells of God, refers you to God. It is not God!
The mission is to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19). That includes more truth than the bible caontains. You have been shown that the bible tells you that it does not contain all truth. The Church does contain all truth, and the authority to teach.
The Church actually has four marks: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Read the Nicene Creed. You have apparently confused the Word made flesh, the Logos - Jesus Christ - with a man-made sacramental object that you hold in your hands. To me, this appears very close to idolatry. It appears that you may have deified the bible. Please correct me if I am wrong.
To me, it is apparent that “bible Christians” have rejected even the possibility of Christ being made present in the Holy Eucharist. Thus, they have been forced to replace Christ’s presence with the bible - and not even the entire bible - but their private opinion based on 90% of the bible. It seems to me that, in some cases, the bible has become a god of its own.
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AD70
Guest
Paul does not need to use the plural term - church (es) to be speaking of the entire body of Christ. You should know this. And although the building imagery may have been used of men later to refer to single congregations - this is fine. It does nothing to my argument.AD -
Where in 1 Timothy 3:15 does St Paul say churches? You are misinterpreting the text to bolster your view…
For in Scripture, we find that there is but ONE Church - (Eph. 4) and therefore the imagery of the building is a composite imagery into which every true believe fits.
“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto **an holy temple **in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are **builded together **for an habitation of God through the Spirit” (Ephesians 2:19-22).
“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house.” (1Pet. 2:5).
Would you dare to assert that Paul’s “buiding” is somehow different than Peter’s “buidling”? Then consider that Paul is speaking to the Ephesian congregation, and Peter is speaking to multiple congregations scattered throughout palestine!
Therefore, my original point stands. The building imagery does not refer to the college of bishops of the catholic church but includes every true believer in Christ.
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AD70
Guest
So the bible is a “man-made sacramental object” - huh? Wow. how reverent.
I do not practice idolatry, but I believe that you do, when you bow down and worship bread.
I do not deify the Bible. But I revere the content of the Holy Scriptures to be God’s word.
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dzheremi
Guest
You don’t see the irony in saying that second thing right after the first thing? How very reverent of you. And when Christ tells you, “Take, eat of this all of you; this my Body” after breaking the bread at the last supper, do you still look at it and say that it is idolatry to bow down before Him? I mean, if you so revere the text of holy scripture, why not that part of it?
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SteveVH
Guest
What an awesome photograph. True worship.
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dzheremi
Guest
And that’s what we do in every Coptic liturgy! 
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