How do you talk to cafeteria Catholics?

[iloveangels]

Thing is, more and more people are “cafeteria catholics”, and this is something we’re going to have to address, both as a Church and as individuals in our daily lives. There’s two people in my entire, incredily large family, that adhere to all the teachings of the Church. The rest are cafeteria catholics, and I’m the “fundamentalist” in the family. Why? Because I don’t accept contraception, fornication, abortion, adultery, IVF, homosexual marriage and so on…

IF we want to solve the problem of having too many cafeteria Catholics, we’ve got to stop making cafeteria Catholics left and right. It’s just that simple.

 

[Lochias]

Diocesan priests work very hard, and for a very small salary. In fact many of them are in dire straits when they retire, because they don’t make enough to provide adequately for retirement. If they have some occasion to celebrate and are treated to a nice dinner with drinks, I don’t begrudge them that in the slightest.

I don’t see any merit in an argument that the Church should continue to tolerate the 5th column of dissenters who are gnawing away at the moral fabric of the Church from within…because a few priests went out to a nice dinner.

Agreed.

 

[edwest2]

IF we want to solve the problem of having too many cafeteria Catholics, we’ve got to stop making cafeteria Catholics left and right. It’s just that simple.

I don’t understand. How do We (please identify) make anyone a cafeteria Catholic?

Best,
Ed

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Usually I just smile politely and don’t push any issues unless they ask me outright.

Thing is, more and more people are “cafeteria catholics”, and this is something we’re going to have to address, both as a Church and as individuals in our daily lives. There’s two people in my entire, incredily large family, that adhere to all the teachings of the Church. The rest are cafeteria catholics, and I’m the “fundamentalist” in the family. Why? Because I don’t accept contraception, fornication, abortion, adultery, IVF, homosexual marriage and so on…

I’ve found pointing to Popes or teachings doesn’t help. ie. I pointed out Theology of the Body to a family memeber who gave me some speil about “conscience” and that their’s said contraception et al was okay. Had to have the conversation about conscience then, and that’s always subjective and annoying.

I’ve found, however, that this is more brain prodding:

“Do you beleive that Jesus is present in the Eucharist?”

Generally, if Catholic, will say they do.

Then I just say:

“Well, if the Church says Jesus is present in the Eucharist, which is a heck of a stretch to believe, that a little peice of bread is now Jesus Christ, God of All, Creator of the Universe, and you beleive that, how can you then turn around and say that you don’t beleive the Church’s teachings on contraception? If the Church is wrong about contraception, how can you be sure about Her being right about the Eucharist? She’s either right, or wrong. If She is the holder and guardian of all objective moral truth, then she’s right about everything, or wrong about everything. IF you hold she’s right about the Eucharist, then she must be right about contraception”.
Or words to the effect. Of course, I usually just get blank stares and a topic change at this point.

THIS IS BRILLIANT!!

I have been trying to do the same thing, and have been met by the same blank stares, it’s very sad.
But, I do know that I have made a difference by doing this. I have had a few friends/aquaintences tell me that my questions really casued them to think more about their faith and what they believe.

Small steps…, small steps…

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t understand. How do We (please identify) make anyone a cafeteria Catholic?
Best,
Ed

Sloppy RCIA classes that don’t last long enough and don’t make sure people are actually attending mass.
Marriage prep that doesn’t do a good enough job, and don’t ensure that people are actually attending mass.
Baptism prep sessions that last 1/2 hour. Baptism prep sessions ought to last about 6 months and require that the parents attend mass EVERY sunday for the duration of the pregnancy before baptism is scheduled. If they can’t manage to get to mass before the child is born, there’s no reason to expect that they will after the child is born.

 

[jimmy]

How do you talk to cafeteria Catholics ???

Very slowly and loudly.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Sloppy RCIA classes that don’t last long enough and don’t make sure people are actually attending mass.
Marriage prep that doesn’t do a good enough job, and don’t ensure that people are actually attending mass.
Baptism prep sessions that last 1/2 hour. Baptism prep sessions ought to last about 6 months and require that the parents attend mass EVERY sunday for the duration of the pregnancy before baptism is scheduled. If they can’t manage to get to mass before the child is born, there’s no reason to expect that they will after the child is born.

Also, priests who never speak about the basic tenets of our faith. Like never saying the word “abortion” in any context. The Gospel is great but tie it to TODAY’S WORLD, Father!

And no continuing education for adult Catholics. The Baptists have Sunday School, we should too! We need catechism for adults, not just children.

 

[SuperLuigi]

1- I went to a men’s group at my parish tonight one man in his 60’s was promoting gay marriage, talking about going to strip clubs and other things inaprotate. I don’t think I’ll be going to that mens group they didn’t even pray

If this is part of a Church function, you may want to bring it to the attention of the priest. I can see that if these sins are encouraged it could become scandal.

2-my mother attenwdd mass but promotes gay marriage, and abortion. I gave her a list of mortal sins and asked her to please go to confession

 

[SuperLuigi]

TheRealJuliane;10047953]Also, priests who never speak about the basic tenets of our faith. Like never saying the word “abortion” in any context. The Gospel is great but tie it to TODAY’S WORLD, Father!

That sin of omission could be a real deal-breaker during Judgement and it’s something we all need to be aware of.

 

[edwest2]

Sloppy RCIA classes that don’t last long enough and don’t make sure people are actually attending mass.
Marriage prep that doesn’t do a good enough job, and don’t ensure that people are actually attending mass.
Baptism prep sessions that last 1/2 hour. Baptism prep sessions ought to last about 6 months and require that the parents attend mass EVERY sunday for the duration of the pregnancy before baptism is scheduled. If they can’t manage to get to mass before the child is born, there’s no reason to expect that they will after the child is born.

Ok. So what are your solutions? We should take action that is consistent with Catholic teaching. And make our voices heard to those in charge in fraternal correction.

Peace,
Ed

 

[SuperLuigi]

I think it’s interesting how both sides of the social justice spectrum accuse the other of picking the teachings that fit their own personal opinions and ignoring the ones that don’t.

People need to worry about what they can do instead of using the force of government to take from their neighbor., and those who can give need to stop making excuses and cut the excess fat so to speak.

That would be a good start.

 

[SuperLuigi]

This is a charitable suggestion. Unfortunately many of these 5th column “Cafeteria” Catholics consider themselves “free thinkers” who know better than the Magisterium when it comes to some issues, such as abortion and same sex “marriage.” They will argue that Obama will do more for the poor, and therefore voting for him is a higher moral imperative than voting against abortion and same sex “marriage.” This begs the question, however- what exactly is it that Obama has done for the poor?

Better that the heterodox should leave the Church, if they cannot amend their thinking. The Church can get along just fine without them and their “modernism.”

We’ve heard the nonsense about “getting with the times” for 2000 years. There’s always going to be an elite and a bunch of wannabe-elites who think they know what is best for everyone and really just want to leave their mark in history and/or feel good. They think they have their cake and eat it too, ie rub elbows with hollywood stars and be seen as Mother Teresa.

It’s no wonder why Jesus wasted no time on trying to convince them and reached out to sinners instead.

I think it’s fair to say a lot of the motives for being cafeteria Catholic come more from selfishness than from vincible and invincible ignorance, especially in adults.

I should say it’s quite amazing that so many Christians and Abrahamic faith members throw up excuses and screens thinking people are actually fooled by their real motives and goals, but when you study history, it’s just more of the same.

People who write on the internet aren’t as opaque as they’d like to think and careful, experienced observers will note certain behavioral patterns…

I really can’t say more or give specific examples because of the rules, and I think that each post or case has its own situation.

Voting is a good example of this. I voted for Romney and made no secret of that on here. I voted for him knowing that he was not ideal because some of policies were not exactly in line with RCC teaching, but I also knew that our mission would be more difficult with another four years of this president and this administration. I did vote for Romney perhaps mainly to get rid of ObamaCare, which could be a more or less selfish motive, but I also saw flexibility in Church teaching that voting for Goode or something like WRITE-IN: Timothy Dolan would mean I would be helping Obama win with the gift of understanding how these can turn out, which means zero chance for Third-Party.

However, I also have a prediction that Virgil Goode and Gary Johnson and even some Obama voters won’t be feeling too good after a while, and will find out that purist principles in the voting booth in political races (I’m not talking about amendments and levies) can be quite costly.

And this whole notion of “helping the poor” sounds to me in most cases to be total hogwash and a cover story for other motives. People who want to help the poor just go out and do it. They don’t worry about if they are giving more than their neighbor or how they might look in the faculty lounge, at the water cooler, at a PTA meeting or at Thanksgiving dinner.

It is ridiculous at the priorities that some American voters have, and yes, it shows and I know about it.

And it seems that you and I understand big government doesn’t help the poor. It would be something even to begin to tell you about how “good intentions” from EurAsia and North American made poverty in Africa skyrocket or that the “war on poverty” hasn’t made a dent in the rates (they’ve ticked up) after 16 trillion dollars.

When Reagen cut the marginal tax rates, he doubled the revenue to government, and because people had more of their own money and supreme confidence in the economy, over 16 million new jobs were created and charitable giving soared. Reagen even increased spending on family programs by 18%.

Conservatism helps poor people by flowing along with natural law and human psychology and motive.

Liberalism always, always goes against the grain and requires people to make sacrifices that are often involuntary and forced.

 

[edwest2]

It’s a lot more than just selfishness and we need to forget about government and do something ourselves. Now. Today.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Faithdancer]

Sloppy RCIA classes that don’t last long enough and don’t make sure people are actually attending mass.
Marriage prep that doesn’t do a good enough job, and don’t ensure that people are actually attending mass.
Baptism prep sessions that last 1/2 hour. Baptism prep sessions ought to last about 6 months and require that the parents attend mass EVERY sunday for the duration of the pregnancy before baptism is scheduled. If they can’t manage to get to mass before the child is born, there’s no reason to expect that they will after the child is born.

I understood what you meant, and I totally agree. I’m a youth ministry coordinator and confirmation teacher. The confirmation textbook we were given to use says things like “put a large rock in the middle of the table and tell the students it stands for God.” I don’t know how that is supposed to do anything but confuse the students. I wonder if there are other teachers, however, who may doggedly follow these textbooks and leave the students with heterodox ideas about Catholicism. I’m an experienced classroom teacher so maybe that helps- the most effective classroom teachers don’t teach to the textbook. I certainly don’t use the confirmation text much at all- there is usually a page or two in each chapter that contains something worth working with in class- the rest is just new age fuzz.

 

[Faithdancer]

We’ve heard the nonsense about “getting with the times” for 2000 years. There’s always going to be an elite and a bunch of wannabe-elites who think they know what is best for everyone and really just want to leave their mark in history and/or feel good. They think they have their cake and eat it too, ie rub elbows with hollywood stars and be seen as Mother Teresa.

It’s no wonder why Jesus wasted no time on trying to convince them and reached out to sinners instead.

I think it’s fair to say a lot of the motives for being cafeteria Catholic come more from selfishness than from vincible and invincible ignorance, especially in adults.

I should say it’s quite amazing that so many Christians and Abrahamic faith members throw up excuses and screens thinking people are actually fooled by their real motives and goals, but when you study history, it’s just more of the same.

People who write on the internet aren’t as opaque as they’d like to think and careful, experienced observers will note certain behavioral patterns…

I really can’t say more or give specific examples because of the rules, and I think that each post or case has its own situation.

Voting is a good example of this. I voted for Romney and made no secret of that on here. I voted for him knowing that he was not ideal because some of policies were not exactly in line with RCC teaching, but I also knew that our mission would be more difficult with another four years of this president and this administration. I did vote for Romney perhaps mainly to get rid of ObamaCare, which could be a more or less selfish motive, but I also saw flexibility in Church teaching that voting for Goode or something like WRITE-IN: Timothy Dolan would mean I would be helping Obama win with the gift of understanding how these can turn out, which means zero chance for Third-Party.

However, I also have a prediction that Virgil Goode and Gary Johnson and even some Obama voters won’t be feeling too good after a while, and will find out that purist principles in the voting booth in political races (I’m not talking about amendments and levies) can be quite costly.

And this whole notion of “helping the poor” sounds to me in most cases to be total hogwash and a cover story for other motives. People who want to help the poor just go out and do it. They don’t worry about if they are giving more than their neighbor or how they might look in the faculty lounge, at the water cooler, at a PTA meeting or at Thanksgiving dinner.

It is ridiculous at the priorities that some American voters have, and yes, it shows and I know about it.

And it seems that you and I understand big government doesn’t help the poor. It would be something even to begin to tell you about how “good intentions” from EurAsia and North American made poverty in Africa skyrocket or that the “war on poverty” hasn’t made a dent in the rates (they’ve ticked up) after 16 trillion dollars.

When Reagen cut the marginal tax rates, he doubled the revenue to government, and because people had more of their own money and supreme confidence in the economy, over 16 million new jobs were created and charitable giving soared. Reagen even increased spending on family programs by 18%.

Conservatism helps poor people by flowing along with natural law and human psychology and motive.

Liberalism always, always goes against the grain and requires people to make sacrifices that are often involuntary and forced.

You make some excellent points. Just to note, I did vote for Virgil Goode, but I live in California where a vote for Goode counted exactly as much as a vote for Romney- nada. If I lived in a state where the electoral votes weren’t already locked up by Obama years ago- I admittedly may well have voted for Romney.

 

[Faithdancer]

Also, priests who never speak about the basic tenets of our faith. Like never saying the word “abortion” in any context. The Gospel is great but tie it to TODAY’S WORLD, Father!

And no continuing education for adult Catholics. The Baptists have Sunday School, we should too! We need catechism for adults, not just children.

Perhaps we should be required to demonstrate competence in faith knowledge every few years. The diocese could administer a written test which if failed would require remedial courses- something like the driver’s license renewal.

Sometimes I think it is too easy to become and to remain a Catholic. People don’t value belonging to something which requires no effort and demands very little.

 

[iloveangels]

Perhaps we should be required to demonstrate competence in faith knowledge every few years. The diocese could administer a written test which if failed would require remedial courses- something like the driver’s license renewal.

Sometimes I think it is too easy to become and to remain a Catholic. People don’t value belonging to something which requires no effort and demands very little.

I’m not sure about a test. But I think that parishes need to become much more lively places, the kind of places you might want to be around during the week occasionally. And places where you might care if you get left out of things because you’re goofing off instead. In that kind of an atmosphere, people are more likely to show up and pay more attention.

And certainly, for any kind of service or position, even a volunteer one, people should have to demonstrate knowledge, certainly. There should be formal education and experience requirements for these things. The diocese should provide the basic stuff and it should be meaty, academic and require testing at the end, to make sure the material has been learned, UNDERSTOOD CORRECTLY, and RETAINED. And it should require a practicum to balance it with practice before one is turned loose on the unsuspecting public.

The more complicated stuff ought to require the services of someone with formal training–college classes in bible study or theology, even the volunteer stuff like CCD. The kind of ignorance I often see is just plain inexcusable.

 

[Seeker1961]

Perhaps we should be required to demonstrate competence in faith knowledge every few years. The diocese could administer a written test which if failed would require remedial courses- something like the driver’s license renewal.

Sometimes I think it is too easy to become and to remain a Catholic. People don’t value belonging to something which requires no effort and demands very little.

That would really make sure that all those undesirables would be kicked to the curb, wouldn’t it?

Better hope that test doesn’t include anything about ego…

 

[iloveangels]

That would really make sure that all those undesirables would be kicked to the curb, wouldn’t it?

Better hope that test doesn’t include anything about ego…

It’d help with our CINO problem, Seeker. That’s the point here. People believe anything they want because they don’t really know what’s in Christianity!

I can’t tell you know many times I’ve heard people deny things that are explicitly stated in Scripture, and they do it with a straight face because they’re completely ignorant about what Scripture says. Often-times ignorant in the most basic and plain ways possible. It’s absolutely astonishing. And the ignorance of Scripture is MUCH WORSE in the Catholic church and the big mainline churches than in evangelical churches. Most catholics are illiterate when it comes to scripture–and even THEIR OWN catechism!

Some people substitute a whole bunch of folk stuff about the co-redemptive divinity of Mary or some such stuff. Some make carrying on with other people their religion–trying to convince them of things or force them do things against their wills, and this goes on on both ends of the “spectrum of opinion” in the Church. Some use rules and sayings that they’ve picked up from some devotional hodgepodge someplace as their religion. Some people simply turn to the culture or politics to fill the void and call that Christianity. But it’s NOT. None of that is Christianity!

Increasingly now, faced with all this blatant stuff, people are just walking away. They see it, it’s strange, they throw up their hands and walk away. More than 10% of American culture is ex-Catholic now. It’s not that most of them even actually knew what Christianity was, let alone lived it. They walked away from what they THOUGHT Christianity was, based on the people around them who were almost certainly doing the insane things listed above. I say “almost certainly” because that’s how common this pseudo-religion stuff is.

 

[Faithdancer]

I can’t tell you know many times I’ve heard people deny things that are explicitly stated in Scripture, and they do it with a straight face because they’re completely ignorant about what Scripture says. Often-times ignorant in the most basic and plain ways possible. It’s absolutely astonishing. And the ignorance of Scripture is MUCH WORSE in the Catholic church and the big mainline churches than in evangelical churches. Most catholics are illiterate when it comes to scripture–and even THEIR OWN catechism!

Some people substitute a whole bunch of folk stuff about the co-redemptive divinity of Mary or some such stuff. Some make carrying on with other people their religion–trying to convince them of things or force them do things against their wills, and this goes on on both ends of the “spectrum of opinion” in the Church. Some use rules and sayings that they’ve picked up from some devotional hodgepodge someplace as their religion. Some people simply turn to the culture or politics to fill the void and call that Christianity. But it’s NOT. None of that is Christianity!

Increasingly now, faced with all this blatant stuff, people are just walking away. They see it, it’s strange, they throw up their hands and walk away. More than 10% of American culture is ex-Catholic now. It’s not that most of them even actually knew what Christianity was, let alone lived it. They walked away from what they THOUGHT Christianity was, based on the people around them who were almost certainly doing the insane things listed above. I say “almost certainly” because that’s how common this pseudo-religion stuff is.

All very true. Religious ed materials are deficient in Scripture and CCC references and content, imo. And I’ve heard homilies wherein well-intentioned priests praised curiosities such as Pentecostal-type “holy rolling” and the practice of Zen Buddhist meditation, for Catholics. I’ve also seen liturgical dance within the Mass, which is not appropriate- and I’m a choreographer! What are the populi supposed to learn from this? It’s no wonder why so many are, as you describe, confused about what Catholic dogma and liturgy are supposed to be.

It really does all hinge on religious ed. I informed a teen at weekly youth group night a while back about the Sunday obligation. She had never heard of it, but said that she was going to tell her mother about it when she got home; obviously mom wasn’t aware of it either. Perhaps we can’t do a whole lot about the adults, since if they are already confirmed they can’t be held accountable to attend any more classes. But if we can overhaul the religious ed for kids and teens, make it authentically Catholic, we can indirectly influence the parents. Then in another 20 years or so we might also have a population of Catholic voters who will be properly informed about Catholicism, and we can avoid continuing to elect candidates and enact legislation antithetical to Catholic teaching.