F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
What does not matter?
You say that the Church is focused on the “why” not the “how” so why does it really matter?
What matters is that it happened.
- Status
You say that the Church is focused on the “why” not the “how” so why does it really matter?
What matters is that it happened.
H
hermit
Guest
Why all the speculation? The crucifixion of Jesus was no different than any other criminal crucified by the Romans. I doubt the Romans staged a tailor-made crucifixion.
S
Scott_Lafrance
Guest
and why it happened, and the effect of it happening. Whether Jesus was nailed to a t or a T is immaterial to WHY He was nailed to it.
B
Benadam
Guest
It’s true that the ‘why’ is primary in importance to our salvation but we have to be carefull not to deny the hypostatic union that reveals Truth in every aspect of Christ’s human experience on earth. In Christ the Mystery of God is revealed in every thing that happened including the hows, when’s, and where’s. In Christ eternity entered time.
S
Spyder1jcd
Guest
True, but think about this: Mel Gibson’s film was so powerful because for the first time, people were shown the bare-back, uncensored brutality of Jesus’ death. Not because it was about Jesus. There are so many movies from the past about Jesus’ life and death, like Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus. But they either held back or just didn’t know of the true brutality. Mel Gibson’s unique way of filming was able to get the message across better than any other movie I’ve ever seen, even if it is historically, archeologically, and medically inaccurate.
Plus, I’m just one of those people that focus on the “how,” because I understand the “why” enough to suit me.
S
Spyder1jcd
Guest
I have friends who say they walked out of the auditorium crying after seeing The Passion of the Christ for the first time. Face it, the “how” is a direct link to the “why.” For the first time, we understand the pain and suffering Jesus underwent FOR US. For every murderer, every criminal, every sinner, Jesus paid the price. He paid our debt. And we, as humans, take that gift for granted. For the first time, we see what “picking up the tab” really meant for Jesus. The more we understand HOW Jesus suffered, the more we can appreciate WHY Jesus suffered.
G
Genesis315
Guest
My girlfirend actually wrote about this on her college email discussion list. She shot it my way too. I’ll paste it below. (her sources are in the very last footnote)
" I’d like to quickly look at a couple events from the Passion that perhaps seem unlikely/impossible. In the Garden of Gethsemane it says Jesus sweated blood. This is actually a known medical condition called hematidrosis brought on by severe physiological stress[11]. What about the flogging? Roman floggings were known to be especially brutal[12]. It’s believed that they often caused, as in Jesus’ case, hypovolemic shock which is basically the effects of massive blood loss.[13] In this state, He was crucified. How did crucifixion work? Was it a certain death? Could Jesus have escaped? The victim was laid down and nailed to the cross[14]. Is this possible? Although victims were sometimes tied with rope (as cited by the Harvard Theological Review), later archaeological discoveries in the 1960s found that nails were frequently used in crucifixion (including a victim with a 7 inch nail still in his foot)[15]. To hold the weight of the person, the nail[16] was driven through the wrist,[17] specifically through the median nerve[18]. Once the cross was actually erect[19], death actually comes through slow asphyxiation because the stress of the position puts the muscles into an “inhale” position; to exhale, the individual has to push up with his feet[20] to exhale which the person can only manage until exhaustion prohibits it. Thus crucifixion is a certain death."
" I’d like to quickly look at a couple events from the Passion that perhaps seem unlikely/impossible. In the Garden of Gethsemane it says Jesus sweated blood. This is actually a known medical condition called hematidrosis brought on by severe physiological stress[11]. What about the flogging? Roman floggings were known to be especially brutal[12]. It’s believed that they often caused, as in Jesus’ case, hypovolemic shock which is basically the effects of massive blood loss.[13] In this state, He was crucified. How did crucifixion work? Was it a certain death? Could Jesus have escaped? The victim was laid down and nailed to the cross[14]. Is this possible? Although victims were sometimes tied with rope (as cited by the Harvard Theological Review), later archaeological discoveries in the 1960s found that nails were frequently used in crucifixion (including a victim with a 7 inch nail still in his foot)[15]. To hold the weight of the person, the nail[16] was driven through the wrist,[17] specifically through the median nerve[18]. Once the cross was actually erect[19], death actually comes through slow asphyxiation because the stress of the position puts the muscles into an “inhale” position; to exhale, the individual has to push up with his feet[20] to exhale which the person can only manage until exhaustion prohibits it. Thus crucifixion is a certain death."
G
Genesis315
Guest
[11] Hematidrosis is where severe anxiety causes the release of chemicals that break down the capillaries in sweat glands; this causes bleeding in the glands. This means the sweat comes out mixed with a small amount of blood.
[12] Roman floggings usually consisted of 39 lashes, but were frequently more. The soldier would use a whip of braided leather thongs with metal balls woven and sharp pieces of bone woven into it. Basically this would shred the flesh (from the shoulders down to the back of the legs) and reveal skeletal muscles; many died from this type of beating before they were crucified.
[13] “Hypo” means low; “vol” refers to volume, and “emic” means blood. This causes four things: (1) the heart races to pump blood it doesn’t have (2) blood pressure drops causing fainting or collapse, (3) the kidney’s stop producing urine and (4) the victim becomes thirsty to replace the lost fluid.
[14] Their wrists were first nailed to the horizontal bar, called the patibulum, which remained separate from the vertical beam in the stage of the crucifixion.
[15] In 1968 archaeologists in Jerusalem found the remains of about 12 Jews who had died in the riots in Rome in 70AD. One victim, Yohanan, was crucified and they found a seven-inch nail still driven into his feet and small pieces of olive wood from the cross still attached to it. This confirms a key detail in the Gospel narrative.
[16] The Romans used 5-7 inch nails that were sharpened to a point.
[17] People may object here that later depictions show Christ nailed through the hands; the confusion comes in that the language of the day used the word ‘hand’ to include the wrist.
[18] The pain caused by hitting this nerve is unfathomable. Bumping your funny bone barely triggers the ulna nerve; nailing through the media nerve would be like taking pliers and twisting it mercilessly. This is actually where we get the word excruciating; it literally means ‘out of the cross.’ The pain was so intense that they had to create a new word to express it.
[19] In erecting the cross, Jesus’ body would have been immediately stretched 6 inches in length; his shoulders would be dislocated (as determined with simple math equations); this actually fulfills the prophecy in Psalm 22, “my bones are out of joint.”
[20] In doing this, the nail would eventually tear through the feet and push up against the tarsal bones.
[21] Kevin Johnson’s Why Do Catholics Do That? and Lee Strobel’s The *Case for Christ, *Jack Finegan’s The Archaeology of the New Testament, John Mcray’s Archaeology and the New Testament JA Thompson’s The Bible and Archaeology, Edwin Yamachui’s The Stones and the Scriptures, Gregory Boyd’s Cynic Sage or Son of God? Recovering the Real Jesus in an Age of Revisionist Replies, Michael Wilkins’ Jesus Under Fire, and Jesus under Seige.
[12] Roman floggings usually consisted of 39 lashes, but were frequently more. The soldier would use a whip of braided leather thongs with metal balls woven and sharp pieces of bone woven into it. Basically this would shred the flesh (from the shoulders down to the back of the legs) and reveal skeletal muscles; many died from this type of beating before they were crucified.
[13] “Hypo” means low; “vol” refers to volume, and “emic” means blood. This causes four things: (1) the heart races to pump blood it doesn’t have (2) blood pressure drops causing fainting or collapse, (3) the kidney’s stop producing urine and (4) the victim becomes thirsty to replace the lost fluid.
[14] Their wrists were first nailed to the horizontal bar, called the patibulum, which remained separate from the vertical beam in the stage of the crucifixion.
[15] In 1968 archaeologists in Jerusalem found the remains of about 12 Jews who had died in the riots in Rome in 70AD. One victim, Yohanan, was crucified and they found a seven-inch nail still driven into his feet and small pieces of olive wood from the cross still attached to it. This confirms a key detail in the Gospel narrative.
[16] The Romans used 5-7 inch nails that were sharpened to a point.
[17] People may object here that later depictions show Christ nailed through the hands; the confusion comes in that the language of the day used the word ‘hand’ to include the wrist.
[18] The pain caused by hitting this nerve is unfathomable. Bumping your funny bone barely triggers the ulna nerve; nailing through the media nerve would be like taking pliers and twisting it mercilessly. This is actually where we get the word excruciating; it literally means ‘out of the cross.’ The pain was so intense that they had to create a new word to express it.
[19] In erecting the cross, Jesus’ body would have been immediately stretched 6 inches in length; his shoulders would be dislocated (as determined with simple math equations); this actually fulfills the prophecy in Psalm 22, “my bones are out of joint.”
[20] In doing this, the nail would eventually tear through the feet and push up against the tarsal bones.
[21] Kevin Johnson’s Why Do Catholics Do That? and Lee Strobel’s The *Case for Christ, *Jack Finegan’s The Archaeology of the New Testament, John Mcray’s Archaeology and the New Testament JA Thompson’s The Bible and Archaeology, Edwin Yamachui’s The Stones and the Scriptures, Gregory Boyd’s Cynic Sage or Son of God? Recovering the Real Jesus in an Age of Revisionist Replies, Michael Wilkins’ Jesus Under Fire, and Jesus under Seige.
C
cove
Guest
Kevin Walker:
C
cove
Guest
I cry every Palm Sunday and Good Friday when we read the Passion during Mass. Mel’s movie was very moving but it did not take that movie for me to know and feel what “suffering Jesus underwent for us.”
Tonight I will be attending a “living” Stations of the Cross put on by the teens in my parish. Minus the blood or gore and just as moving.
F
FCEGM
Guest
Spyder, it seems the poll doesn’t reflect a question about the Gospel accounts, but rather a question about how those accounts have traditionally been depicted in Christian art.
I answered “yes” not to the Christian art that we typically encounter, but to the Gospel accounts. Some wonderful reflections on these accounts which take note of good historical insight into how crucifixion was practiced in the Roman Empire can be found in ROSARY: Mysteries, Meditations, *and the * Telling *of the * Beads, by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D., Pangaeus Press, 1997.
I answered “yes” not to the Christian art that we typically encounter, but to the Gospel accounts. Some wonderful reflections on these accounts which take note of good historical insight into how crucifixion was practiced in the Roman Empire can be found in ROSARY: Mysteries, Meditations, *and the * Telling *of the * Beads, by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D., Pangaeus Press, 1997.
I
Ignatius
Guest
I think I’d like to know what “very different idea” you have. Can you please elaborate and be specific? Thank you.
E
Exporter
Guest
It was said that three Muslim “officials” were at an event held at Harvard to discuss the crucifixtion of Christ.
I ask, why would Muslims be invited to discuss the crucifixion of Christ?
Has anyone heard of an event in which Catholics were invited to discuss the lives of prominant Muslims? The Koran was written about 650 years after the crucifixion so any reference to Christ was for two reasons to be suspect. Muslims do not want to admit that Jesus was the Son of God, so their view would bolster their own religion. They are prejudiced.
I ask, why would Muslims be invited to discuss the crucifixion of Christ?
Has anyone heard of an event in which Catholics were invited to discuss the lives of prominant Muslims? The Koran was written about 650 years after the crucifixion so any reference to Christ was for two reasons to be suspect. Muslims do not want to admit that Jesus was the Son of God, so their view would bolster their own religion. They are prejudiced.
S
Spyder1jcd
Guest
You can choose not to believe Christian art yet still believe the Gospel accounts. I do. For instance, the idea of carrying a crossbar doesn’t conflict with the Bible saying He carried a cross. They both come from the same word, but that word happened to be translated in our Bibles as “cross.” Also, just because the Bible says “hands,” doesn’t mean it wasn’t through the wrists. Again, adventures in mistranslation. In Jesus’ time, physicians considered from the tip of the middle finger all the way to the elbow the “hand.” Therefore, Jesus could’ve been nailed through His wrists, but the evangelists would’ve still recorded it as “hand.”
S
Spyder1jcd
Guest
Actually, I already answered that above. In case you missed it, this is how I believe the crucifixion happened as opposed to Christian art:
K
Kevin_Walker
Guest
The Harvard Divinity School on Frances Street in Cambridge, Massachusetts routinely has representatives from various religions come in and give talks and presentations. Muslim speakers are very common at the protestant Harvard Divinity School. So are Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Voodoo priests etc.
The Muslims believe that Jesus was one of many prophets in a line leading to Mohammed, and that he did not perish in crucifixion, either he was saved by an angel or a duplicate was crucified in his place.
The Afro-American Muslim medical doctor from Philadelphia who presented his argument minimilized everything about the Lord’s ordeal. He claimed that the Roman spearhead was too large to do any severe damage, and that the Hebrew word for ‘pierced’ was mistranslated when it actually should have been ‘pricked’ as if one pricks their finger while sewing. The clear fluid which was released was not water but simply cytoplasm which accumulated in the chest cavity as a result of Christ’s suspension from the cross. The release of this fluid would have lessened the strain on heart and lungs so helping Christ survive the ordeal. The Doctor also claimed that at 33 years old, Jesus was a young and fit man and this helped him survive his crucifixion.
I simply brought out to the doctor that 2,000 years ago, between 27-33 years old, Jesus would have been an old man and this would not have helped him survive his crucifixion experience.
K
Kevin_Walker
Guest
Actually all the crucifixions throughout both Greek history and Roman history were inconsistant. No two crucifixions were exactly alike, depending on the creep who was hammering in the nails, the exact spot where the nail entered the body was not always the same.
Partial remains of skeletons have been found with nails in different parts of the anatomy: heelbone, anklebones, feet, both feet togther, one foot on top of the other, both feet side by side; or a nail through the hand, wrist, forearm, or elbows.
Nails or spikes where used, and crucifixes came in different shapes and sizes. Some poor souls had even been crucified to walls or a tree.
The crucifixion method used in Jerusalem by the Romans may have varied as that used in Britain, Spain, Gaul, Germany, or any other unfortunate colony of Rome.
C
CatholicMatthew
Guest
T shaped cross makes sense since the sign was placed over his head and not over his hands
I have heard there is a bowl shaped thorn plant called the crown of thorns in that area which was probably used
Probably nailed through the wrists…shroud of turin and just holds you up better…I guess as I am not speaking from experience
Anyway…no matter the exact form the sacrifice is still the same.
Matthew
S
Spyder1jcd
Guest
Sorry if I didn’t make it clear, but I believe what you just described. I DON’T agree with the traditional view presented in Christian art.
S
Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Alot of people don’t know this, but the metal that the spikes were made of were not iron, they were a titanium dioxide/aluminum alloy. Sorry if this news shakes your faith, it did mine. When I found out, I dumped Christianity and Catholicism and took up a hybrid of Scientology, Raelianism, and Rastafariansism.
- Status