How Do You Understand Church Teaching About Our Blessed Mother?

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pianistclare said:
**FWIW, there is a ban on “agenda posting” here at CAF. **
Which this definitely falls under that category.
There have now been 3 threads closed because of beating this drum, along with posters arguing with a genuine theologian and retired seminary professor priest.
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:sad_yes:

Actually, it is more than three, by my count. One, concerning Mediatrix of All Graces, was shut down instantly by the moderator.

I have come to the conclusion that the original poster can only be seen as being profoundly disturbed, as a result of what I have seen.
It’s a very good thing to love Our Lady. Wonderful. Beautiful.
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This is true only when love is properly ordered and theologically sound…the same is true with regard to devotion and to exercises of piety. They must be properly ordered and theologically sound.

It is not wonderful or beautiful in other circumstances, as any priest who has been a parish priest for very long at all can readily attest. In fact, it can be very very far from wonderful or beautiful. And it can end very tragically, as we see throughout Church history.
 
thank you Father.
I think the OP must think posters are somehow “insulting” Mary. 🤷
Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
This is a complete twisting of what I said and you know it!:mad:

I agree with Clare, you have an agenda and are doing a great disservice to Catholics, this forum and any one who is coming here to learn more about the Catholic faith.

You, Sir, should be ashamed of yourself.
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In addition to what you assess, correctly, the poster actually makes a mockery of devotion to the Mother of Jesus as well as the Church’s mind concerning her and the relationship between her and the disciples of her Son by the way he grossly misrepresents what the Church actually teaches.

Your emoticon expressing anger is understandable given how the poster has acted. But let us look at this matter and dissect it as we would in a theological classroom.

Since I know you are completing a course of theological studies, you do well to examine this, make note of it, and to remember this incident for future reference. You will have occasion to see it in parish ministry…fortunately relatively rarely and with varying manifestations of the imbalance/disorder in the expression of thought or the exercise of piety.

When the person you are working with in a pastoral setting demonstrates that they are a priori anti-intellectual, it is a waste of breath to say much beyond the fact that the person is in error and is to be declared to be culpable for placing themselves in opposition to what the Church teaches, once you have told them that they are, in fact, not in keeping with the Church’s mind and thought. Arguing with the irrational, or those who render themselves irrational, cannot have a fruitful result.

Also, you will have studied theological methodology. Using isolated quotes while ignoring the underlying the theological paradigm upon which quotes rest in the context of coherent thought and teaching along with a failure to properly integrate pericope into the other specialisations of theology, which you will have studied, is a warning never to be ignored.

If we were in the lecture hall, I could scarcely have devised a more illustrative case study on this sort of phenomenon of disorder in thought about Marian piety, Church teaching, or how the error incubate. It is almost, quite literally, a text book case.
 
pianistclare said:
thank you Father.
I think the OP must think posters are somehow “insulting” Mary. 🤷
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No. I do not think that. The poster lost all benefit of the doubt by his method of behavin and that a number of threads ago, in my determination.
 
IsaiahSpirit said:
It must be stressed that The Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved
from original sin and sin the rest of her life out of Divine not Merited Favor.
It was for her benefit and everyone else’s benefit who chooses Salvation.
I truly believe some things attributed to her are because of her office
of Queen or as a Symbol of The Church.
~
I honor her because it gives Glory to God and His Son Jesus Christ.
I cherish her Clement intercession for God’s Mercy in her special role.
But I also cherish the intercession of St. Joseph the Foster Father of Jesus Christ
and all The Holy Angels and Saints.
~
God Bless.
Peace.
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Hi IsaiahSpirit,

Thanks for your positive post. Yes, I agree with that Mary is our Queen and that all that she is comes from Christ’s gift. I agree that honoring her gives Glory to the Trinity, and that we cherish her clement intercession.

Here’s a beautiful passage from Pope Pius 12th Encyclical (Ad Caeli Reginam), which is about Mary’s saving office as Queen of all things:
  1. Now, in the accomplishing of this work of redemption, the Blessed Virgin Mary was most closely associated with Christ;*…[46] Hence, as the devout disciple of St. Anselm (Eadmer, ed.) wrote in the Middle Ages: "just as . . . God, by making all through His power, is Father and Lord of all, so the blessed Mary, by repairing all through her merits, is Mother and Queen of all; …
  2. In order to understand better this sublime dignity of the Mother of God over all creatures let us recall that the holy Mother of God was, at the very moment of her Immaculate Conception, so filled with grace as to surpass the grace of all the Saints. Wherefore, as Our Predecessor of happy memory, Pius IX wrote, God “showered her with heavenly gifts and graces from the treasury of His divinity so far beyond what He gave to all the angels and saints that she was ever free from the least stain of sin; she is so beautiful and perfect, and possesses such fullness of innocence and holiness, that under God a greater could not be dreamed, and only God can comprehend the marvel.”[55]
    w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html
Let’s pray to Our Queen for each other, IsaiahSpirit!
 
patricius79 said:
Hi IsaiahSpirit,

Thanks for your positive post. Yes, I agree with that Mary is our Queen and that all that she is comes from Christ’s gift. I agree that honoring her gives Glory to the Trinity, and that we cherish her clement intercession.

Here’s a beautiful passage from Pope Pius 12th Encyclical (Ad Caeli Reginam), which is about Mary’s saving office as Queen of all things:
  1. Now, in the accomplishing of this work of redemption, the Blessed Virgin Mary was most closely associated with Christ;*…[46] Hence, as the devout disciple of St. Anselm (Eadmer, ed.) wrote in the Middle Ages: "just as . . . God, by making all through His power, is Father and Lord of all, so the blessed Mary, by repairing all through her merits, is Mother and Queen of all; …
  2. In order to understand better this sublime dignity of the Mother of God over all creatures let us recall that the holy Mother of God was, at the very moment of her Immaculate Conception, so filled with grace as to surpass the grace of all the Saints. Wherefore, as Our Predecessor of happy memory, Pius IX wrote, God “showered her with heavenly gifts and graces from the treasury of His divinity so far beyond what He gave to all the angels and saints that she was ever free from the least stain of sin; she is so beautiful and perfect, and possesses such fullness of innocence and holiness, that under God a greater could not be dreamed, and only God can comprehend the marvel.”[55]
    w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html
Let’s pray to Our Queen for each other, IsaiahSpirit!
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Who said she was not our Queen?

No one.
 
pianistclare said:
Who said she was not our Queen?

No one.
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Right, I would hope we all agree that Mary is to each of us, personally, our Maternal Mediatrix and Queen in whom we place all hope, as Pius 9th said.

What did you think of the JPII quote about the whole economy of salvation being concentrated in Mary?

Or–again, just wondering-- what do you think Pope Pius 9th meant in his bull on the Immaculate Conception when he said that God showered Mary with graces to such an extent that Mary:
That staggers my mind. It reminds me what a doctor the Church–St. Alphonsus–says about how Mary loves each one of us, individually, far more than all mothers combined have every loved all their chlidren.
 
patricius79 said:
Right, I would hope we all agree that Mary is to each of us, personally, our Maternal Mediatrix and Queen in whom we place all hope, as Pius 9th said.

What did you think of the JPII quote about the whole economy of salvation being concentrated in Mary?

Or–again, just wondering-- what do you think Pope Pius 9th meant in his bull on the Immaculate Conception when he said that God showered Mary with graces to such an extent that Mary:
That staggers my mind. It reminds me what a doctor the Church–St. Alphonsus–says about how Mary loves each one of us, individually, far more than all mothers combined have every loved all their chlidren.
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Haven’t read it. Nor do I intend to. No one here has to justify their devotion to Our Lady or Christ Himself for that matter.
Don’t presume that you can “school” people.
It really makes you look bad. It’s very uncharitable, I know you think you’re doing us and Our Lady some huge favor, but really…enough already. I’m unsubscribing. There is nothing that I care to read any further here.
 
patricius79 said:
How Do You Understand Church Teaching About Our Blessed Mother?

Out of the love for our Lord, let’s do our best to be very charitable on on-topic on this thread.

I’m trying to explore more about what the Church teaches about our Blessed Mother, the Queen of all things, so as to grow in love for Jesus Christ.

Please feel free to share how you personally understand the mystery of the Mother of God. Simple expressions of piety are welcome.

Also welcome are–for example–quotations from the saints or the Magisterium.

To me personally, Mary is my unspeakably wonderful Mother.

Here is a beautiful passage, also, from Pope Pius 9th’s “Ineffabilis Deus” (“Ineffable God”), which dogmatically defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception:

Our soul overflows with joy and our tongue with exultation…All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin – in the all fair and immaculate one who has …brought salvation to the world…

Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours… Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth…and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
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Hi Patricius ,

In your own words, no quotes, what do you understand of the Church teaching. Dot point is always simple. I will respond later after Mass. It is Sunday here.

We arent speaking about personal experience or private revelation are we?
 
seagal said:
I could be wrong but that sounds dangerously close to heresy to me, to put Mary in the centre of our faith when her place is beside her Son, directing us to him.
.
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Dear Seagal,

Just to follow up on this,I looked in Redemptoris Mater (St. John Paul II) to see if he, for example, uses the phrase central or "at the center of "in regard to our Mother.

He apparently does so. Here for example, in this beautiful passage:

One can say that if Mary’s motherhood of the human race had already been outlined, now it is clearly stated and established. It emerges from the definitive accomplishment of the Redeemer’s Paschal Mystery. The Mother of Christ, who stands at the very center of this mystery-a mystery which embraces each individual and all humanity-is given as mother to every single individual and all mankind. Church the faithful.’"48

And again:

At the center of this mystery, in the midst of this wonderment of faith, stands Mary. As the loving Mother of the Redeemer, she was the first to experience it: “To the wonderment of nature you bore your Creator”!
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html
 
This still does not mean what you think it does.
Yes, Mary is important.
Personal devotion is not required for Salvation, never has been.
Please stop implying that it is.
patricius79 said:
Dear Seagal,

Just to follow up on this,I looked in Redemptoris Mater (St. John Paul II) to see if he, for example, uses the phrase central or "at the center of "in regard to our Mother.

He apparently does so. Here for example, in this beautiful passage:

One can say that if Mary’s motherhood of the human race had already been outlined, now it is clearly stated and established. It emerges from the definitive accomplishment of the Redeemer’s Paschal Mystery. The Mother of Christ, who stands at the very center of this mystery-a mystery which embraces each individual and all humanity-is given as mother to every single individual and all mankind. Church the faithful.’"48

And again:

At the center of this mystery, in the midst of this wonderment of faith, stands Mary. As the loving Mother of the Redeemer, she was the first to experience it: “To the wonderment of nature you bore your Creator”!
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html
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pianistclare said:
Haven’t read it. Nor do I intend to. No one here has to justify their devotion to Our Lady…
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Dear pianistclare,

I’m not anyone’s judge at all, let alone the judge of people on the internet whom I barely know. I’m just trying to learn something from the saints and Popes, asking questions, and speaking what I believe to be true.

I do think that there’s been a decline in Marian devotion among Church Catholics, due in part to not seeking to integrate Church teaching about Mary. I’m as guilty as anyone. As I’ve said before, I would already be in hell without Christ’s grace given through the intercession of our Blessed Mother. I realize that most–if not almost all–people on here believe that devotion to Mary is not necessary for salvation.

(*Again, of course, when I say that devotion to Mary is necessary, I’m speaking of those with psychological freedom and with access to the truth about the Mother of God. I’m speaking of those with freedom and access).

I can’t see that devotion to Mary is unnecessary (an issue, btw, which I did not bring up in the opening post), because–for example–we must keep the commandments to be saved. As I understand it, the Church teaches that the Fourth Commandment–honor your father and your mother–applies not only to honoring our biological parents, but to honoring all those in authority–teachers, for example, and police officers.

How much more, then, would this apply to the Mother of God, who is our Blessed Mother, Queen, and Mediatrix, by whose merits the world is repaired, as one of the Popes I quoted said?

Vatican II was so clear about the union of the Mother and the Son in the work of our salvation–a work which climaxes at the Cross, where Mary stands–as St. JPII says–at the center of the Paschal mystery. So how could any part of the Catholic faith be categorically necessary, let alone “singular” and “saving” role of our “Mother in the order of grace” (Vatican II), who is “placed on the highest summit of glory” (Leo 13th–see quote below)

(Again, of course, I fully realize that Jesus is fully man and fully God, and that Mary’s role adds nothing, and subtracts nothing, from the dignity of this One Mediator, the Lord.)

Here’s another quotation from our beloved Popes which I find beautiful from Pope Leo 13th, regarding praying the Rosary and the importance of Marian devotion:

The supreme Apostolic office which we discharge and the exceedingly difficult condition of these times, daily warn and almost compel Us to watch carefully over the integrity of the Church, the more that the calamities from which she suffers are greater. We constantly seek for help from Heaven - the sole means of effecting anything - that our labours and our care may obtain their wished for object. We deem that there could be no surer and more efficacious means to this end than by religion and piety to obtain the favour of the great Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven, in order that she may bestow the help of her patronage on men who through so many labours and dangers are striving to reach that eternal city.
w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio.html
 
Listen.
Please.
We get it.
We got the memo.
You don’t need to keep hitting everyone over the head with Pope Leo.
You have the document.
You like it.
**You’re not trying to learn. **
You’re trying to teach.
But you are unwilling to listen.
Mary listened.
Why can’t you?

Agenda posting.
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150
 
Oneofthewomen said:
This still does not mean what you think it does.
Yes, Mary is important.
Personal devotion is not required for Salvation, never has been.
Please stop implying that it is.
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Dear Oneofthewomen,

In my personal life, Mary comes right into all my messiness and shows me inexpressible respect and love for me, just as I am.

And I know that is how she is with every person, because she was given as Mother to every human being, uniquely, from the Crucified Christ.

In a motherly way, she affirms each one of us as being good, just as we are.

So I’m glad that we agree that Mary is important.

Maybe we could talk about what we are more likely to agree on, and how we came to that understanding.
 
patricius79 said:
Dear Oneofthewomen,

In my personal life, Mary comes right into all my messiness and shows me inexpressible respect and love for me, just as I am.

And I know that is how she is with every person, because she was given as Mother to every human being, uniquely, from the Crucified Christ.

In a motherly way, she affirms each one of us as being good, just as we are.

So I’m glad that we agree that Mary is important.

Maybe we could talk about what we are more likely to agree on, and how we came to that understanding.
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There is nothing to talk about.
Through Mary’s “yes” to God, the Messiah was born.
That makes her important, but she is not my Savior, her Son is.

I never disagreed that Mary was important. What I disagree with is you trying to make it seem that if someone does not have a personal devotion to Mary the way YOU DO, we are somehow missing out on something or denying her importance.

I have a very satisfying spiritual life. I spend much time in prayer, have a wonderful prayer relationship with Jesus, avail myself of the Sacraments frequently and donate much of my time & talent to my parish. I have taken to praying a weekly Rosary for the intentions of my Pastor as one of my Lenten practices, but normally, the Rosary does not have a big place in my spiritual life.
Any you know what- I am happy, content and know that I am doing what I need to in order to honor God.
 
pianistclare said:
Listen.
Please.
We get it.
We got the memo.
You don’t need to keep hitting everyone over the head with Pope Leo.
You have the document.
You like it.
**You’re not trying to learn. **
You’re trying to teach.
But you are unwilling to listen.
Mary listened.
Why can’t you?

Agenda posting.
CONDUCT RULES
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language. See the Concierge Desk sub-forum for more information.
Inappropriate or offensive user names, profile entries, or pictures are not permitted.
Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).
Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150
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This is correct.

Personally, I am writing to the forum administrator regarding the original poster.

The forum is being abused and the Church’s teaching is being made a mockery of by him.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
There is nothing to talk about.
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I think this is the point to be underscored. The person demonstrates that he is, unfortunately, simply incapable of being engaged with rationally.

He enunciated positions faithless to the Church’s teaching. That is the other point to be underscored.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
This is correct.

Personally, I am writing to the forum administrator regarding the original poster.

The forum is being abused and the Church’s teaching is being made a mockery of by him.
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I understand that there are those here who do not want to discuss this and of course this is their right and they feel the OP is bringing this up too much but then I noticed this post of yours and I thought maybe if you were going to speak to the forum administrator maybe a suggestion could be to have a section on Catholic Answers for those who do want to discuss the Blessed Mother and the Saints.

There are Catholics who do want to discuss Mary and the Saints, since they are such a big part of our faith, but there really isn’t a place to here to do that.

Just a thought. 🙂

God bless.
 
For the last time-
NO ONE IS SAYING WE CANNOT TALK ABOUT MARY OR THAT MARY IS NOT IMPORTANT!!

Now, with that out of the way, the problem is not with discussions of Mary, veneration of her or what other Saints, Popes and learned men & women have written about her.

The problem is with the OP’s misunderstanding of what the Church actually teaches and their refusal to take fraternal correction from those who do know. The other part of the problem is the insistence that the Church that requires some sort of Marian devotion as part of our path to salvation.

Not only is the OP making a mockery of Marian devotion, as the good Father states, they are doing a great disservice to Catholics, this forum and anyone who comes here seeking truth.
Magdalena59 said:
I understand that there are those here who do not want to discuss this and of course this is their right and they feel the OP is bringing this up too much but then I noticed this post of yours and I thought maybe if you were going to speak to the forum administrator maybe a suggestion could be to have a section on Catholic Answers for those who do want to discuss the Blessed Mother and the Saints.

There are Catholics who do want to discuss Mary and the Saints, since they are such a big part of our faith, but there really isn’t a place to here to do that.

Just a thought. 🙂

God bless.
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