How Do You Understand Church Teaching About Our Blessed Mother?

[James248]

Once again, you and others read around the posters. Not reading accurately.
Reading AROUND to see what you want to see.
He DID NOT say that it was heresy to love Our Lady.



I have to ask…what are your motives for continually misrepresenting the others on this thread?

I must thank you for your understanding of what I said.

 

[pianistclare]

I must thank you for your understanding of what I said.

:tiphat:

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Devotion to Mary is not essential to salvation. I mean: a respect for her is required as well assenting to the dogmas. That alone is enough. But to anyway indicate that failure to love Mary damns a person is heresy.

You mean “devotion” as “private devotion”, correct? If so I agree, but I have to point out that it is minimally required for Catholics to publicly venerate (which arguably is a “public” devotion, i.e. to honor and love) the Blessed Virgin by celebrating Holy Mass during the Holy Days of Obligation honoring her as declared by the Catholic Church in each country.

CCC 2042 The first precept (“You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”) requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.

 

[Magdalena59]

Devotion to Mary is not essential to salvation. I mean: a respect for her is required as well assenting to the dogmas. That alone is enough. But to anyway indicate that failure to love Mary damns a person is heresy.

James248

I certainly agree with you. Not having a private or personal devotion to Mary would not damn a person and I am sure I did not say that it would and I certainly did not mean for my posts to give that impression.

God bless.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Dear brother Roseeureakross, son of my Mother,

Thanks for writing.

No, we are not merely speaking about subjective experiences speaking about personal relationships within the Family God, under the guidance of the Magisterium regarding the Catholic faith, the loving embrace of which is a matter of salvation.

♧♧♧♧♧♧
God’s relationship with His creatures is not subjective. Because God is perfection. Your relationship, however; is subjective.
♧♧♧♧♧♧

Yes, salvation is from God the Father, Mediated through the Lord Jesus Christ. in the Holy Spirit (Mary’s Spouse)

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
Mediated in that Jesus is the way, the truth, the light. One cannot take a shortcut of direct access to God. One must accept the reason for Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, accept, and acknowledege it.

The Holy Spirit begot Jesus. St Joseph was given Blessed Virgin Mary as her spouse. Do you forget there is no marriage in Heaven. Remember the woman that married 7, they all died. The Pharisees tried to catch Jesus out by this question ‘who is her spouse in Heaven’ .
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

As Vatican II says explicitly, Mary’s role in bringing us the gifts of eternal salvation shows the power of this One Mediation.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
And this is the sticking point, dear brother, where you are in error, to be blunt. You are misinterpreting those gifts. I have read time and again on different threads you say that our Blessed Lady of Kibeho brings that salvation. You reject any correction in fully forming that statement to give Our Lady acknowledgement of her correct role, her correct gifts.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

Yes, the Samaritan Woman had–after many attempts to find love and probably finding herself quite miserable, had found the Holy One who was completely present to her, loving her and affirming her just as she was/is.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
We cannot know the joy or misery of that woman, apart from her joy in waiting for, believing in , and finally being rewarded by meeting the Messiah.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

All this happened by the gift of Jesus Christ through Mary, the woman’s Mother and Mediatrix.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
It happened by the gift of Jesus Christ through our God. Where is your Glory to your God? No merciful God, no gift of the Messiah to a Samaritan or a Gentile. God could have just wiped us out by means other then water. His Covenant with Noah was:

15and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Remember that when you see rainbows.

WHERE IS YOUR GLORY TO YOUR GOD, dear brother? See your grave error?
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

My understanding of Church teaching is that there is One Eternal Infinite Divine Nature in Three Persons.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
As we all grasp to understand. Some like Don Ruggero attempt to grasp this for years through formal education, by other educated people.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

The Father sent the Second Person, the Son, to take on a second nature–a human nature–for our salvation.

He chose to do this through the free assent of a creature he had created–Mary–who is always as close to Him as it is possible for a creature to be. No creature could ever be created to be holier.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
Are you presuming to know the nature of God ? Is it for you, me, anyone to say , well thats it, noone can be ever created more saintly by you God. Are you presuming to tell the Lord your God that ?
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

In other words, even God cannot exalt a creature more than making that creature to be the Mother of God (the Son).

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
In other words you presume to know the nature and plan of God. Even our Blessed Virgin Mary would never presume such.
Are you saying God cannot exalt whomever He wants because it doesnt agree with your view? Seriously?
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

Mary was exalted to this extent to be our sweet bond with Jesus Christ, so that by suffering all the redemptive work which they accomplished together, by His grace (for she too is redeemed by Christ), she was given to us by the Crucified Christ.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
Can you rephrase that, without quotes, so it is correct. If you struggle to do so, ask a Priest. That has the potential to cause scandal, thereby creating the occasion of mortal sin in you.

Remember GOD.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

She was so that each human person–without exception–could have a completely unique relationship with her as Mother, and --through this Maternal Helper–with Jesus Christ as Savior and God.

I’m not an educated person, so I may not have chosen the best words, but this is something of what my understanding is.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
One can, as Don Ruggero, already established as an educated man, accept salvation is by God, through His Son Jesus Christ, alone. Without the help of any Angels or Saints.

So quit making excuses. You are, with respect, being stubborn and obstinate, in allowing a man in the employ of God, to correct your errors.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat

Please read my responses, found in between shamrocks. ST Patrick is the Patron Saint of my Diocese. I have implored his help in understanding and charity!

Last time I looked, I was female. . AND my brother is Jesus Christ, who gave his own life for me, my Father and my salvation is God. My spiritual mother is my Blessed Lady , mother of my Messiah, and yet, a creature like me. So since you are my spiritual brother , best to listen to our other spiritual brother, Don Ruggero. Afterall, he went to school and became educated so as to teach and guide us in this stuff. I bet he even ate noodles at uni! Pulled all nighters, sweated over exams. .

 

[James248]

+JMJ+

You mean “devotion” as “private devotion”, correct? If so I agree, but I have to point out that it is minimally required for Catholics to publicly venerate (which arguably is a “public” devotion, i.e. to honor and love) the Blessed Virgin by celebrating Holy Mass during the Holy Days of Obligation honoring her as declared by the Catholic Church in each country.

CCC 2042 The first precept (“You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”) requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.

Yep. That’s what I meant.

 

[Magdalena59]

Please read my responses, found in between shamrocks. ST Patrick is the Patron Saint of my Diocese. I have implored his help in understanding and charity!

Last time I looked, I was female. . AND my brother is Jesus Christ, who gave his own life for me, my Father and my salvation is God. My spiritual mother is my Blessed Lady , mother of my Messiah, and yet, a creature like me. So since you are my spiritual brother , best to listen to our other spiritual brother, Don Ruggero. Afterall, he went to school and became educated so as to teach and guide us in this stuff. I bet he even ate noodles at uni! Pulled all nighters, sweated over exams. .

Hi Roseeurkacross.

First let me say I love your shamrocks. Saint Patrick is a great patron saint to have.

I’m not going to go through all of your post but I hope it is okay if I just say a couple of things.

This is from a priest at Catholic.org, Monsignor Charles M. Mangan from the diocese of Sioux Falls. He says:

Our Blessed Mother Mary is the Immaculate Mediatrix who is the Chosen Spouse of the Holy Spirit. Our Lady is so intimately linked to the Holy Spirit–the Third Person of the Most Blessed Trinity–through her profound love and obedience that we can attest without a trace of exaggeration that she is the Spouse of the Paraclete. (Holy Spirit)

And this is from Pope Leo III
"You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between Mary and the Holy Spirit, so that she is justly called His Spouse.”

And this is from Lumen Gentium Vatican II

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer.

In honoring Mary and accepting the role she has played in salvation, you give God glory because you are honoring His sinless creation. She of all His creatures was sinless.

Sometimes I know it is hard to understand and I think people are misunderstanding and it looks as though honoring Mary is replacing Jesus but it is not. It is honoring Jesus and she will only lead you to closer to Jesus. When she leads you to Jesus God is glorified.

God bless

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Hi Roseeurkacross.

First let me say I love your shamrocks. Saint Patrick is a great patron saint to have.

I’m not going to go through all of your post but I hope it is okay if I just say a couple of things.

This is from a priest at Catholic.org, Monsignor Charles M. Mangan from the diocese of Sioux Falls. He says:

Our Blessed Mother Mary is the Immaculate Mediatrix who is the Chosen Spouse of the Holy Spirit. Our Lady is so intimately linked to the Holy Spirit–the Third Person of the Most Blessed Trinity–through her profound love and obedience that we can attest without a trace of exaggeration that she is the Spouse of the Paraclete. (Holy Spirit)

And this is from Pope Leo III
"You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between Mary and the Holy Spirit, so that she is justly called His Spouse.”

And this is from Lumen Gentium Vatican II

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer.

In honoring Mary and accepting the role she has played in salvation, you give God glory because you are honoring His sinless creation. She of all His creatures was sinless.

Sometimes I know it is hard to understand and I think people are misunderstanding and it looks as though honoring Mary is replacing Jesus but it is not. It is honoring Jesus and she will only lead you to closer to Jesus. When she leads you to Jesus God is glorified.

God bless

Sorry, in all Charity, I have stopped reading posts with quotes, given the understanding and context of these quotes is sadly errant.

 

[patricius79]

Devotion to Mary is not essential to salvation. I mean: a respect for her is required as well assenting to the dogmas. That alone is enough. But to anyway indicate that failure to love Mary damns a person is heresy.

Dear brother James,

I agree that we must respect our Mother. and assent to the dogmas about her. Yet how could one respect our Mother without loving her? Or how could one keep her holy days of obligation–such as Jan 1 (The Holy Mother of God)–with faith,hope, and love without loving her personally?

Moreover, we must assent not only to dogmas but to all Church doctrine about Mary.

Mary was given by the Crucified Jesus Christ to each one of us, personally, to be our New Covenant Mother.

Of course, from what I understand of Church teaching, the whole Catholic faith is a matter of salvation, and not merely in the sense of being orthodox. We must love as the Church calls us to love. The Holy Spirit–who sanctifies and helps us through our Mother–gives us this love.

We must embrace our whole covenant family–and all those still outside it–in prayer in order to be saved.

But we need fear nothing, for the very reason that the Holy Spirit works through our Mother, who is our Helper, Advocate, Protectress, and Mediatrix.

Of course some people have psychological impediments or invincible ignorance and I understand those subjective factors, which are affirmed in the Catechism.

I’m speaking of those who are free and have the opportunity to learn about her who is the Crown of All Miracles and as near to God Himself as it is possible for a creature to be.

But one cannot freely, knowingly choose reject a loving relationship with the Blessed Mother and be saved.

 

[James248]

Dear brother James,

I agree that we must respect our Mother. and assent to the dogmas about her. Yet how could one respect our Mother without loving her? Or how could one keep her holy days of obligation–such as Jan 1 (The Holy Mother of God)–with faith,hope, and love without loving her personally?

Moreover, we must assent not only to dogmas but to all Church doctrine about Mary.

Mary was given by the Crucified Jesus Christ to each one of us, personally, to be our New Covenant Mother.

Of course, from what I understand of Church teaching, the whole Catholic faith is a matter of salvation, and not merely in the sense of being orthodox. We must love as the Church calls us to love. The Holy Spirit–who sanctifies and helps us through our Mother–gives us this love.

We must embrace our whole covenant family–and all those still outside it–in prayer in order to be saved.

But we need fear nothing, for the very reason that the Holy Spirit works through our Mother, who is our Helper, Advocate, Protectress, and Mediatrix.

Of course some people have psychological impediments or invincible ignorance and I understand those subjective factors, which are affirmed in the Catechism.

I’m speaking of those who are free and have the opportunity to learn about her who is the Crown of All Miracles and as near to God Himself as it is possible for a creature to be.

But one cannot freely, knowingly choose reject a loving relationship with the Blessed Mother and be saved.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Father says patricius has crossed the line.

There are some like me, who go to the Masses celebrating Mary as a sign of obedience. And as far as I can tell, obedience is the best sacrifice.

 

[patricius79]

Please read my responses, found in between shamrocks. ST Patrick is the Patron Saint of my Diocese. I have implored his help in understanding and charity!

Last time I looked, I was female. . AND my brother is Jesus Christ, who gave his own life for me, my Father and my salvation is God. My spiritual mother is my Blessed Lady , mother of my Messiah, and yet, a creature like me.

♧♧♧♧♧♧
God’s relationship with His creatures is not subjective. Because God is perfection. Your relationship, however; is subjective.
♧♧♧♧♧♧

Yes, salvation is from God the Father, Mediated through the Lord Jesus Christ. in the Holy Spirit (Mary’s Spouse)

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
Mediated in that Jesus is the way, the truth, the light. One cannot take a shortcut of direct access to God. One must accept the reason for Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, accept, and acknowledege it.

The Holy Spirit begot Jesus. St Joseph was given Blessed Virgin Mary as her spouse. Do you forget there is no marriage in Heaven. Remember the woman that married 7, they all died. The Pharisees tried to catch Jesus out by this question ‘who is her spouse in Heaven’ .
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

As Vatican II says explicitly, Mary’s role in bringing us the gifts of eternal salvation shows the power of this One Mediation.

♧♧♧♧♧♧♧
And this is the sticking point, dear brother, where you are in error, to be blunt. You are misinterpreting those gifts. I have read time and again on different threads you say that our Blessed Lady of Kibeho brings that salvation. You reject any correction in fully forming that statement to give Our Lady acknowledgement of her correct role, her correct gifts.
♧♧♧♧♧♧♧

Dear sister Reseeurekacross,

I agree that God is Infinite Perfection and one cannot take a shortcut of direct access to God. That is why Jesus Mediates between us and the Father. Likewise Mary is Maternal Mediatrix between us and God the Son (Jesus Christ)/

It is Church doctrine that Mary cooperated with Jesus in our the work of salvation, and that she continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation from the One Mediator Jesus Christ… This is all by the grace of Jesus Christ.

The Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Incarnation of the Son of God in Mary–through which supreme mystery we are saved-- are inseparable in the divine plan, being parts of the same decree of God. This is affirmed by Pope Pius 9th. In other words, God has chosen that the creature Mary, and God the Son, together–should redeem us.

Of course, Mary remains infinitely less than, and subordinate to, her Divine Son, who Himself freely submitted Himself to Mary by becoming her son.

Yet her goodness is greater than anything imaginable under God.

Here is Vatican II’s dogmatic constitution on the Church:

60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power…
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15) *
ewtn.com/library/councils/v2church.htm

 

[James248]

Dear sister Reseeurekacross,

I agree that God is Infinite Perfection and one cannot take a shortcut of direct access to God. That is why Jesus Mediates between us and the Father. Likewise Mary is Maternal Mediatrix between us and God the Son (Jesus Christ)/

It is Church doctrine that Mary cooperated with Jesus in our the work of salvation, and that she continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation from the One Mediator Jesus Christ… This is all by the grace of Jesus Christ.

The Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Incarnation of the Son of God in Mary–through which supreme mystery we are saved-- are inseparable in the divine plan, being parts of the same decree of God. This is affirmed by Pope Pius 9th. In other words, God has chosen that the creature Mary, and God the Son, together–should redeem us.

Of course, Mary remains infinitely less than, and subordinate to, her Divine Son, who Himself freely submitted Himself to Mary by becoming her son.

Yet her goodness is greater than anything imaginable under God.

Here is Vatican II’s dogmatic constitution on the Church:

60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power…
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15) *
ewtn.com/library/councils/v2church.htm

Yep. The saints in Heaven intercede for us. But, that doesn’t automatically mean we have to have personal devotion to them.

 

[James248]

Please read my responses, found in between shamrocks. ST Patrick is the Patron Saint of my Diocese. I have implored his help in understanding and charity!

Last time I looked, I was female. . AND my brother is Jesus Christ, who gave his own life for me, my Father and my salvation is God. My spiritual mother is my Blessed Lady , mother of my Messiah, and yet, a creature like me. So since you are my spiritual brother , best to listen to our other spiritual brother, Don Ruggero. Afterall, he went to school and became educated so as to teach and guide us in this stuff. I bet he even ate noodles at uni! Pulled all nighters, sweated over exams. .

This is true.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

But one cannot freely, knowingly choose reject a loving relationship with the Blessed Mother and be saved.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

This is WRONG!
You are doing a great disservice to all who come here seeking truth.
The Church, does not and has not EVER taught what you imply here.
I can be saved and never have a “personal relationship” (whatever that means) with Mary.

You need to stop spreading misinformation and make an appointment to talk to a priest. You have a very flawed view of the role of the Blessed Mother and you are NOT honoring her at all.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

This is WRONG!
You are doing a great disservice to all who come here seeking truth.
The Church, does not and has not EVER taught what you imply here.
I can be saved and never have a “personal relationship” (whatever that means) with Mary.

You need to stop spreading misinformation and make an appointment to talk to a priest. You have a very flawed view of the role of the Blessed Mother and you are NOT honoring her at all.

Actually, it is far worse that doing a disservice.

It is gravely offensive.

I am, frankly, surprised the moderators have not taken action to pull the thread from the public forum.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Sorry, in all Charity, I have stopped reading posts with quotes, given the understanding and context of these quotes is sadly errant.

:sad_yes:

 

[pianistclare]

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

This is WRONG!
You are doing a great disservice to all who come here seeking truth.
The Church, does not and has not EVER taught what you imply here.
I can be saved and never have a “personal relationship” (whatever that means) with Mary.

You need to stop spreading misinformation and make an appointment to talk to a priest. You have a very flawed view of the role of the Blessed Mother and you are NOT honoring her at all.

Not only is it a wrong interpretation of what the Church says about Our Mother, but it also
NOT WHAT SHE DESIRES.

Who loves their mother that is also clearly disobedient to the Father?

It’s useless. The comeback will be flowery language and false “thanks to my sister” nonsense. Passive aggressive. Misleading, and really sad. The fact that someone believes that they are “teaching” a retired Seminary Prof and theologian is appalling.

I really don’t care what they think of me, personally, and my education, but to attack the clergy so personally? It’s beyond what I can wrap my head around this early morning.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

And this is from Pope Leo III
"You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between Mary and the Holy Spirit, so that she is justly called His Spouse.”

Pope Leo III died in 816. This quote does not conform to anything that comes to us through history concerning this pope…what document of Leo III are you taking this from?

 

[patricius79]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Father says patricius has crossed the line.

There are some like me, who go to the Masses celebrating Mary as a sign of obedience. And as far as I can tell, obedience is the best sacrifice.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Father says patricius has crossed the line.

There are some like me, who go to the Masses celebrating Mary as a sign of obedience. And as far as I can tell, obedience is the best sacrifice.

Dear brother James,

First, by the way, I think we sometimes forget that was must lovingly affirm not only dogmas of the Church, but all that the Church teaches through the Ordinary Magisterium.

Now as I understand it, you are claiming that one can freely, knowingly reject having a personal, loving relationship with our Mother and be saved.

But given that there is a singular, unique union of the Mother and the Son in the work of redemption–from the Incarnation to the climax of the Cross, and beyond–how could this be true?

I wonder if we as Catholics have developed a version of “faith alone” thinking.

But it is of course very good that you celebrate Mary in the Mass and seek to obey our Lord Jesus Christ, who said: “Behold, your Mother!”

Of course, I’m not specifying the way one must practice their love for the Mother of God. The Church warmly recommends the Rosary. But this is not possible for everyone.

As John Paul II so beautifully says, Mary was given to each human person from the Crucified Christ, and her relationship with each human person is unique and unrepeatable.

As far as “crossing the line”, I have to agree with what I’ve read from the Magisterium rather than what I’ve heard from people online.

I’m willing to be corrected when I’m in error. All I would need to see is where the Church teaches that I’m in error

But I don’t see how that could possibly be in this case regarding the importance of loving our Mother.

Peace of Jesus Christ, Pat

 

[patricius79]

Actually, it is far worse that doing a disservice.

It is gravely offensive.

I am, frankly, surprised the moderators have not taken action to pull the thread from the public forum.

Dear Father Ruggero,

I know you are a theologian.

Would you be willing to give an example of a quotation from the Magisterium which can show why you think I am mistaken?

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat