How Do You Understand Church Teaching About Our Blessed Mother?

  • Thread starter Thread starter patricius79
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
patricius79 said:
Dear brother James,

First, by the way, I think we sometimes forget that was must lovingly affirm not only dogmas of the Church, but all that the Church teaches through the Ordinary Magisterium.

Now as I understand it, you are claiming that one can freely, knowingly reject having a personal, loving relationship with our Mother and be saved.

But given that there is a singular, unique union of the Mother and the Son in the work of redemption–from the Incarnation to the climax of the Cross, and beyond–how could this be true?

I wonder if we as Catholics have developed a version of “faith alone” thinking.

But it is of course very good that you celebrate Mary in the Mass and seek to obey our Lord Jesus Christ, who said: “Behold, your Mother!”

Of course, I’m not specifying the way one must practice their love for the Mother of God. The Church warmly recommends the Rosary. But this is not possible for everyone.

As John Paul II so beautifully says, Mary was given to each human person from the Crucified Christ, and her relationship with each human person is unique and unrepeatable.

As far as “crossing the line”, I have to agree with what I’ve read from the Magisterium rather than what I’ve heard from people online.

I’m willing to be corrected when I’m in error. All I would need to see is where the Church teaches that I’m in error

But I don’t see how that could possibly be in this case regarding the importance of loving our Mother.

Peace of Jesus Christ, Pat
Click to expand...
Read what Father has posted.
 
This link will take you to the Catechism, the Precepts of the Church, the minimum required to be a Catholic in good standing.

No where will you find that is says one must have any devotion at all to the Blessed Mother.
Is this enough proof for you that you are spreading false information:mad:🤷?

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P75.HTM
 
Oneofthewomen said:
:mad::banghead::banghead::banghead:

This is WRONG!
You are doing a great disservice to all who come here seeking truth.
The Church, does not and has not EVER taught what you imply here.
Click to expand...
Oneofthewomen, while I understand and sympathise with your sense of frustration, it is important to understand…you will encounter this sort of person in parish life, when your theology course of study ends.

This phenomenon derives from those who are theologically illiterate…and make themselves to remain so. Proper religious education, of a sort that is actually solid, is singularly important.

The phenomenon is often associated with people who have an air of fanaticism. Often, too, they are particularly drawn to mystical phenomenon…oftenof the ort that is of dubious provenance.

Such persons are the very definition of “vain credulity,” against which the Council Fathers warn.

They choose to live their lives in an infantilism that completely separates them from the mind of the Church and the wonderful intellects who are part of the Church’s vast patrimony. There is an anti-intellectualism.

The effort to reach these people often fails, as you are seeing, and one has to care for others through a practical isolation and also in explaining to others in the parish the flaws clearly demonstrated and readily perceivable…again as demonstrated in this thread.

Normally, thankfully, most readily apprehend and understand the Church’s teaching regarding Mary and her place in the Church. The people one normally encounters also apprehend, understand, and conform themselves to the hierarchy of truths by which the Virgin Mary is understood as being outside that which is truly central to our faith: the Divine Trinity and our relationship with the Three Divine Persons, the Hypostatic Union, the Person of the Divine Redeemer and our relationship with Him, the essentials of soteriology, the Sacraments and the liturgy, Divine Revelation, and so forth.

Be of courage and good cheer…and accept that there are those who make themselves unteachable.
 
Thank you Father for your kind words.

I have, sadly, encountered some folks in real life who have a warped sense of the Blessed Mother’s role.

I don’t think I have ever met in real life though, someone so obstinate in their belief that they would disrespect the Chruch or her clergy. I guess I have been blessed.

It is very, very sad. 😦
 
Oneofthewomen said:
Thank you Father for your kind words.

I have, sadly, encountered some folks in real life who have a warped sense of the Blessed Mother’s role.

I don’t think I have ever met in real life though, someone so obstinate in their belief that they would disrespect the Chruch or her clergy. I guess I have been blessed.

It is very, very sad. 😦
Click to expand...
It is very sad…but especially in this era, when there is so little excuse for it.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
This link will take you to the Catechism, the Precepts of the Church, the minimum required to be a Catholic in good standing.

No where will you find that is says one must have any devotion at all to the Blessed Mother.
Is this enough proof for you that you are spreading false information:mad:🤷?

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P75.HTM
Click to expand...
Dear Oneoftewomen

Thanks for posting that. I read it. It did talk about liturgical participation in the feast of the Eucharist, including the feasts of our Mother, the Virgin.

It didn’t explicitly say that we must love God to be saved, or that we must love the Mother of God to be saved.

Do you nonetheless think it necessary to have a loving relationship with God (and neighbor) to be saved?

I do, because that is what the Lord said.

Also, the document references living the moral life in connection with the liturgical life.

According to the Church, doesn’t the Fourth Commandment mean that we are to honor all who are in authority?

It seems to me that this would apply especially to our Mother and Queen, who offered her Son on the Cross for our salvation, and brings us the gifts of eternal salvation.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat
 
“It seems to me…”
“I think…”
“The way I understand it…”

This is your problem. You are not willing or able to take the fraternal correction that has proven time and time again that what you are saying, that a special & specific devotion to Mary is necessary for Salvation is, in fact WRONG!

I will no longer indulge you or your delusions. I can only hope and pray that you do not lead anyone else astray with your nonsense.

I will pray that you see the errors of your ways and come to respect and honor the Blessed Mother in light of true Church teaching.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
No, it won’t be.
Click to expand...
Dear Father,

Does the Church teach that the precepts of the Church are an exhaustive list of what is required for salvation?

Also, Pope Benedict 15th stated that “Mary redeemed the human race together with Christ” and Vatican II stated that “there is a union of Mother and Son in the work of salvation”

Is that something that we can agree on?

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat
 
patricius79 said:
Dear Father Ruggero,

I know you are a theologian.

Would you be willing to give an example of a quotation from the Magisterium which can show why you think I am mistaken?

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat
Click to expand...
No.

Absolutely not.

This sort of infantile behaviour is not to be rewarded or encouraged.

As others have pointed out, you are using a manipulative ploy. That needs to be short-cicuited.

What I do want to say is:

You have grossly and **culpably **misrepresented the Church’s teaching.

Your actions profoundly dishonour the Blessed Virgin and, far from winning others to being close to her – you have driven them away for her. How will you make up to her for that?

To do what you have done here, in now more than four threads, has a profound moral consequence that you need to bring up with your confessor…are you aware that one of the posters to whom you so horribly misrepresented the truths concerning the Mother of Jesus has not logged into the forum in five days? How will you make reparation for having driven her away, as you did? Presenting an image of fantasism and behaviour that has every potential to be repulsive. You persist in using imagery that can be readily discarded/

As a follower of the devotion of holy slavery, you have culpably under-served your Queen, you have disrespected the Magisterium of the Church, and you have acted against the clergy.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
“It seems to me…”
“I think…”
“The way I understand it…”

This is your problem. You are not willing or able to take the fraternal correction that has proven time and time again that what you are saying, that a special & specific devotion to Mary is necessary for Salvation is, in fact WRONG!

I will no longer indulge you or your delusions. I can only hope and pray that you do not lead anyone else astray with your nonsense.

I will pray that you see the errors of your ways and come to respect and honor the Blessed Mother in light of true Church teaching.
Click to expand...
Dear sister, Oneofthewomen,

From my perspective, I don’t see where what you are saying is in Church teaching, so we’ll have to respectfully disagree and continue praying for our unity.

Church teaching requires us to love God and everyone–including each other-- to be saved.

I think this would also include our Mother and Coredemptrix, whose role in our salvation is doctrine of the Church.

As St. Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church , said: “One can never love Mary too much!”

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Patfd
 
patricius79 said:
Dear Oneoftewomen

It didn’t explicitly say that we must love God to be saved, or that we must love the Mother of God to be saved.
Click to expand...
This one statement shows how profoundly removed you are from being able to think with the mind of the Church or how she reflects upon the mysteries of the faith that she articulates in her pronouncements and articulations.

The conclusions that you arrive at emerge from your own mind…not the mind or the heart of the Church.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
No.

Absolutely not.

This sort of infantile behaviour is not to be rewarded or encouraged.

As others have pointed out, you are using a manipulative ploy. That needs to be short-cicuited.

What I do want to say is:

You have grossly and **culpably **misrepresented the Church’s teaching.
.
Click to expand...
Dear Father Ruggero,

Thank you for your post. Clearly you have very strong feelings about this.

I’m glad we agree though that Christ is the One Mediator, and that Mary’s “saving office” (Vatican II) of mediation. neither adds nor subtracts to this

I think that’s why the Popes quote St. Bernard, affirming that all good things come to us from Christ through Mary.

I guess I would think that if I’m in such a serious error by saying that we must love our Mother, then someone would be able to guide me into the truth using the Catechism or other authoritative documentation.

One thing I wanted to ask you… when Pope Pius 9th in Ineffabilis Deus says that Mary is the “seat of all graces”, what do you think that means?
 
Pat, you DID say it.
The last line of YOUR POST #87

You have spun such a web of confusion, you can’t remember what you have written.
Please stop it.
 
pianistclare said:
Pat, you DID say it.
The last line of YOUR POST #87

You have spun such a web of confusion, you can’t remember what you have written.
Please stop it.
Click to expand...
Dear Pianist clare,

I’m not sure what you mean. Yes, I did say it and I totally profess it.

My last line of post 87 says:

“But one cannot freely, knowingly choose reject a loving relationship with the Blessed Mother and be saved.”

That is exactly my position because, as Pope St. JPII says, Mary is our Coredemptrix and gave His Mother from the Cross to each and every human person.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat
 
patricius79 said:
Dear sister, Oneofthewomen,

From my perspective, I don’t see where what you are saying is in Church teaching, so we’ll have to respectfully disagree and continue praying for our unity.

Church teaching requires us to love God and everyone–including each other-- to be saved.

I think this would also include our Mother and Coredemptrix, whose role in our salvation is doctrine of the Church.

As St. Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church , said: “One can never love Mary too much!”

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Patfd
Click to expand...
Your perspective seems to be that of regurgitating quotes while lacking any theological synthesis or the cohesive context of any theological vision or paradigm.

One can do the same thing with the Sacred Scripture and weave together an elaborate tapestry…that is nothing but the heresy of Gnosticism…or Arianism…or Adoptionism…or Nestorianism…or Modalism, for that matter. And one can arrive to each of those destinations with relative ease…as any theologian can tell you.

The fundamental response here is that the Mary can be loved that is disordered, improper and that is not in according with the Church’s mind or with God’s will. That’s the problem of simply regurgitating a quote, when you have not internalised the theology needed to put the quote into its proper context.
 
patricius79 said:
Dear Father Ruggero,

Thank you for your post. Clearly you have very strong feelings about this.

I’m glad we agree though that Christ is the One Mediator, and that Mary’s “saving office” (Vatican II) of mediation. neither adds nor subtracts to this

I think that’s why the Popes quote St. Bernard, affirming that all good things come to us from Christ through Mary.

I guess I would think that if I’m in such a serious error by saying that we must love our Mother, then someone would be able to guide me into the truth using the Catechism or other authoritative documentation.

One thing I wanted to ask you… when Pope Pius 9th in Ineffabilis Deus says that Mary is the "seat of all graces", what do you think that means?
Click to expand...
Patricius:

I have been a professor in a lecture hall, I venture, longer than you have been alive.

Your ploys of manipulation have the subtlety of an old Army tank.

“You think…” My first year students learned very quickly that “I think” does not help them in my lecture hall, where the Bishop sent them to begin to learn how to do theology…and it worked even less in relating to me.

As for wanting to ask me, this is post number 115 on your…fifth thread? You should have thought about having the opportunity to address a priest who is a Mariologist when you found out there was one available to you in your first thread.

What do I think it means? I could write at great length on it…and have.

Every bit of language that you used, especially what I have underlined, is completely out of kilter, from the perspective of Mariology and how this all works.
 
patricius79 said:
Dear Pianist clare,

I’m not sure what you mean. Yes, I did say it and I totally profess it.

My last line of post 87 says:

“But one cannot freely, knowingly choose reject a loving relationship with the Blessed Mother and be saved.”

That is exactly my position because, as Pope St. JPII says, Mary is our Coredemptrix and gave His Mother from the Cross to each and every human person.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat
Click to expand...
Then you have drawn a very VERY wrong theological conclusion.

And you do not, moreover, seem to even begin to understand why such a conclusion is fatally flawed.
 
patricius79 said:
Dear Pianist clare,

I’m not sure what you mean. Yes, I did say it and I totally profess it.

My last line of post 87 says:

“But one cannot freely, knowingly choose reject a loving relationship with the Blessed Mother and be saved.”

That is exactly my position because, as Pope St. JPII says, Mary is our Coredemptrix and gave His Mother from the Cross to each and every human person.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat
Click to expand...
You can hold to it all you want.
But the Church has never said ANYWHERE, and none of the persons you quote have said anywhere that the gates of heaven are closed to those who do not posses a strong Marian devotion.

5 threads, and you still persist? I can only conclude that you intend to deceive.

Please stop agenda posting.
 
pianistclare said:
You can hold to it all you want.
But the Church has never said ANYWHERE, and none of the persons you quote have said anywhere that the gates of heaven are closed to those who do not posses a strong Marian devotion.

5 threads, and you still persist? I can only conclude that you intend to deceive.

Please stop agenda posting.
Click to expand...
:yup:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top