How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Tanner9188]

The fact that you don’t understand Purgatory doesn’t make it false. It simply means that you don’t get it.

1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt. 18:32-34 and Matt. 12:32 ALL point to the reality of a final purgation. It seems that you and many Protestants choose to believe that impure things can enter heaven - even though says that nothing unclean will enter (Rev. 21:27).

Perhaps, you agree with Luther’s false notion that "snow-covered dunghills" can enter heaven because Jesus righteousness “covers” our filth and somehow fools God. God MAKES us righteous and pure before entering, thus the purgation spoken of in the Scriptures.

Tell me something, Tanner:
The Early Church fathers taught the Doctrine of Purgatory, shown in writings as far back as the 2nd century. Men like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Abercius, Tertullian, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan and Augustine - ALL respected by Protestant theologians.

What was their motive for teaching this? The Church at the time was being persecuted and was FAR from the giant, rich entity you perceive it to be.

So, what was their motive?

**They were heretics or apostates or both or the writings are taken out of context; probably some of each…take your pick. You really have to push the envelope on twisting of Scripture to get purgatory out of those versus; especially in light of what the Bible teaches that contradicts the whole concept, but it is effective at keeping you on the edge of your seats for life IMO and observations.

The concept of purgatorial sufferings after death challenges the very work of Christ on our behalf. The Bible declares that “Christ himself. . .had died once for sins” (I Pet. 3:18, J.B.V.). There is no more need for further sufferings in purgatory. To demand further suffering and sacrifice is to deny that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient the first time! Jesus said that “he who hears my word. . .has life everlasting and does not come to judgment, but has passed from death to life” (Jn. 5:24, C.R.V.). The Bible also teaches that “if we acknowledge our sins, then God. . .will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong” (1Jn. 1:9, J.B.V.); that God remembers our sins no more (Heb. 10:17); that to die is gain, not torment (Phil. 1:21, 22); that to be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8, 9); and that those who die in Christ are blessed and receive rest from their labors and not excruciating pain (Rev. 14:13).

History: The doctrine of purgatory, instituted by Gregory I. (593 A.D.)
Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence. (1439 A.D.)

The pope claims to be the mediator between God and men with the power over souls in purgatory. However, the Bible contradicts this claim by stating that “For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus” (I Tim 2:5 J.B.V.)

Let the pure word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ stand!**

 

[pismopal]

By continuing to be a practising Catholic…just for openers.

 

[Tanner9188]

interestng… I’ve never belonged to a Catholic church that made money from beer & gambling

None of your local Catholic churches have annual festivals? Do you live out in the sticks? I have at least 4-6 Catholic churches within 8 miles of my house and each one has a festival to raise money selling beer and gambling type activities; including bingo.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The pope claims to be the mediator between God and men with the power over souls in purgatory. However, the Bible contradicts this claim by stating that “For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus” (I Tim 2:5 J.B.V.)

Let the pure word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ stand!

Again Tanner you are showing remarkable ignorance about what the Church believes and teaches. The Catholic Church acknowledges that is has NO AUTHORITY over those who are dead. The domain of Church authority is limited to here on earth ONLY. The Church does nothing with respect to guaranteeing an indulgence. The sole thing the Church does is recommend to God the treasury of the merits of the Church won by Christ and His Saints to REQUEST that God relieve a soul in purgatory from time still owed or to offset the temporal debts for forgiven sins of persons still living who are seeking the indulgence.

THE ENTIRE INDULGENCE IS SUBJECT TO GOD"S WILL AND CONCURRENCE.

We do believe that God honors the church’s plea since God has a special affinity for His Church but we in all cases leave it to God to decide and can not force God to release anyone from purgatory early or to release a person from their temporal debts.

As for mediation - what do you think asking others to pray for us is? It’s not different than indulgences.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

None of your local Catholic churches have annual festivals? Do you live out in the sticks? I have at least 4-6 Catholic churches within 8 miles of my house and each one has a festival to raise money selling beer and gambling type activities; including bingo.

Casting lots is an ancient Catholic tradition. How do you think we elected Mathias over Barsabbas for Judas’ slot when both were liked?

Acts 1:26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

James

 

[brb2]

**
The pope claims to be the mediator between God and men with the power over souls in purgatory. However, the Bible contradicts this claim by stating that “For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus” (I Tim 2:5 J.B.V.)

Let the pure word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ stand!**

Tanner … the spammer !! You can’t rebut CFJ’s apologetics … so you dish out some more pickled garbage.

Show us where you get this idea about the Pope. Otherwise we won’t take you seriously, and will know you are only here to mud wrestle.

 

[Tanner9188]

This is wrong. You also have the freewill to love God and your neighbor and obey His commandments and those who God appoints as His representatives. You are not a slave to grace - you must cooperate with it or you can reject it.

** I am a happy slave of Christ; I use to be a slave to sin. But in a world where Christ is insufficient; I can see where you might not realize that.
“doulos” = slave used 66 times in the NT (NRS) & 61 times in the (NASB) and is used most frequently in reference to true believers and the same Grrek term is used for servant or bond-servant.

Romans 3 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being* justified as a gift by His grace* through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.”**

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

No one is damned unless he wants to be and through his own choice. Likewise no one is saved unless he wants to be and strives to stay in Christ’s grace - praying daily and confessing one’s sins when they fail their tests that The Lord will give and trying again and again to persevere.James

**What does the Scripture say?
“The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.” - (Psalm 14 & Psalm 53 & Romans 3) You can chose sin freely, but that is it; it is our nature.

Matt 24 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”

Mark 13 “no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”

Romans 8 “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies”

John 15 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and {that} your fruit would remain," - ends any discussion on the primacy of Peter; in the Lords own words and eliminates your free-will to come to God.

We can chose to reject the gospel and to sin; therefore those that reject the pure and undefiled gospel of Jesus Christ are already condemned.**

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner … the spammer !! You can’t rebut CFJ’s apologetics … so you dish out some more pickled garbage.

Show us where you get this idea about the Pope. Otherwise we won’t take you seriously, and will know you are only here to mud wrestle.

I don’t need to; the Word of God has already done it.

 

[Tanner9188]

Casting lots is an ancient Catholic tradition. How do you think we elected Mathias over Barsabbas for Judas’ slot when both were liked?

Acts 1:26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

James

Another distortion and inappropriate use of Scripture; casting lots was an OT tradition that only the Jews used to know the will of God; quite a bit different than gambling. You are so good at rationalizing the simplicity of the gospel; I’d say you could rationalize yourself to heaven as well.

 

[Tanner9188]

Again Tanner you are showing remarkable ignorance about what the Church believes and teaches. The Catholic Church acknowledges that is has NO AUTHORITY over those who are dead. The domain of Church authority is limited to here on earth ONLY. The Church does nothing with respect to guaranteeing an indulgence. The sole thing the Church does is recommend to God the treasury of the merits of the Church won by Christ and His Saints to REQUEST that God relieve a soul in purgatory from time still owed or to offset the temporal debts for forgiven sins of persons still living who are seeking the indulgence.

THE ENTIRE INDULGENCE IS SUBJECT TO GOD"S WILL AND CONCURRENCE.

We do believe that God honors the church’s plea since God has a special affinity for His Church but we in all cases leave it to God to decide and can not force God to release anyone from purgatory early or to release a person from their temporal debts.

As for mediation - what do you think asking others to pray for us is? It’s not different than indulgences.

James

James; you are really dribbling now; do I need to bring in your own dogma and bull before your eyes.

 

[Tanner9188]

The reality is NONE of what Christ did on the cross has any merit to you UNLESS YOU accept ALL of Christ’s teachings (including obedience to not sin) AND** REPENT**.

That latter bit is what a lot of Protestants seem to forget - one must repent - not only on initial conversion before baptism BUT ALSO for EVERY single major sin one commits after baptism. One must allocate the grace won on the cross by REPENTING and staying in a “right relationship” with Christ.

Don’t kill yourself over the idea of putting Christ on the cross over and over again. But you are going to wish you were never born when you see the size of the millstone that is put around your neck for teaching false doctrines if you don’t repent for every single mortal sin you have ever committed (e.g. fornication, adultery, abortion, serious theft, lust and sins against purity [masturbation], slander and calumny etc.). That repentance requires either a perfect contrition (which requires supernatural grace) or sacramental confession - which only an apostolic priest has the authority to perform.

James

**James; your soul is in serious trouble at this point based on your theology and attitude; I invite you to know the Lord Jesus, but you must come to Him with a true heart of repentance on His terms; not yours. Look at your last sentence; neither of those are what God said. He wants you just as you are; after that He will finish the perfect work, which He starts and finishes; just as He promised. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. That does not mean you need to leave your religion; just put aside the things that keep you from Christ.

God bless you. **

 

[brb2]

**

Look at your last sentence; neither of those are what God said.

**

CFJ is simply saying what St. Augustine has said … “There is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church”…

Does that mean you must convert to be saved ? I doubt it, unless you are being deliberately meanspirited and irascible. But, you need to come to terms with Catholicism, accept it as valid, stop rejecting it as being unscriptural, and learn to dialog with Catholics.

If you will do this, over time Christ may convince you to convert.

 

[erikd]

Oh, I suspect he has seen a few Catholic Parish fall festivals where they have 2 days out of the year where they try to raise some money to offset the costs of the catholic school tuition by selling amusement ride tickets, food and tickets to ‘games of chance’ (whack a mole, crazy dice, and mouse-roulette). I guess I can see how somone might get hooked on playing all night at a $1 a game chance to win and pool enough “prize coupons” with one’s friends to exchange it for one of those cute stuffed animals or goofy looking hats or t-shirts.

Some of these festivals also sell some 12 oz 3.2% alcohol beers to adults along with the hot-dogs and hamburgers. So I suppose its possible some real lightweight might abuse that privilege and get looped on the the typical 2 or 3 beers one might have with their meal and get wild on the Ferris wheel or something.

Oh yeah, there’s the car raffle too! I suppose the suggested $5 donation for the raffle tickets for the donated car drawing most have might be considered by some to be gambling rather than a charitable donation and entertainment. But these are the same sort of people who wouldn’t think twice about going to get a free breakfast for agreeing to listen to a 45 minute interval-ownership vacation unit sales-pitch then sneaking out the back door after breakfast to powder the salesmen.

Oh - there’s one more thing. The weekly bingo cards at $1 per card per game for a chance to win $50 might be a serious gambling problem for our senior citizens who might not see it as just an opportunity to donate to help defer Church expenses and for an opportunity to socialize with friends and get free coffee and snacks.

Yup I guess I can see how evil all this is and how this is all leading people to hell…

In retrospect, I suppose we should take bingo, beer, hot-dogs and donuts off the list of things Catholics do to gain salvation but roll it all up into “alms giving”.

James

James:

I confess!!! I’M GUILTY!!! :banghead:

 

[holy_moly]

None of your local Catholic churches have annual festivals? Do you live out in the sticks? I have at least 4-6 Catholic churches within 8 miles of my house and each one has a festival to raise money selling beer and gambling type activities; including bingo.

Yes actually I do! Not even any bingo, only a few rummage sales to raise money for the youth group, but a little beer & festivities does sound good now that you mention it!:extrahappy: So can good fellowship be an enhancer getting to heaven? I think so:thumbsup:

 

[holy_moly]

Tanner … the spammer !! You can’t rebut CFJ’s apologetics … so you dish out some more pickled garbage.

Show us where you get this idea about the Pope. Otherwise we won’t take you seriously, and will know you are only here to mud wrestle.

I’m curious as to where you think the Pope has or claims power over the souls in purgatory… 1st time I’ve ever heard of such a thing. Can you see the logic/necessity though of the idea that “nothing unclean shall enter?” (heaven). Surely that just makes sense… also how Jesus said we are to pay the last penny. IOW, even sins that are forgiven, must still be paid for, hence purgatory. For instance, even after I forgive something my children did, I may still require a consequence/punishment… How much more so that our heavenly father is just to us & that we are worthy/clean/pure nough to be in his presence. Seems intuitively obvious to me.

 

[holy_moly]

Oh, I suspect he has seen a few Catholic Parish fall festivals where they have 2 days out of the year where they try to raise some money to offset the costs of the catholic school tuition by selling amusement ride tickets, food and tickets to ‘games of chance’ (whack a mole, crazy dice, and mouse-roulette). I guess I can see how somone might get hooked on playing all night at a $1 a game chance to win and pool enough “prize coupons” with one’s friends to exchange it for one of those cute stuffed animals or goofy looking hats or t-shirts.

Some of these festivals also sell some 12 oz 3.2% alcohol beers to adults along with the hot-dogs and hamburgers. So I suppose its possible some real lightweight might abuse that privilege and get looped on the the typical 2 or 3 beers one might have with their meal and get wild on the Ferris wheel or something.

Oh yeah, there’s the car raffle too! I suppose the suggested $5 donation for the raffle tickets for the donated car drawing most have might be considered by some to be gambling rather than a charitable donation and entertainment. But these are the same sort of people who wouldn’t think twice about going to get a free breakfast for agreeing to listen to a 45 minute interval-ownership vacation unit sales-pitch then sneaking out the back door after breakfast to powder the salesmen.

Oh - there’s one more thing. The weekly bingo cards at $1 per card per game for a chance to win $50 might be a serious gambling problem for our senior citizens who might not see it as just an opportunity to donate to help defer Church expenses and for an opportunity to socialize with friends and get free coffee and snacks.

Yup I guess I can see how evil all this is and how this is all leading people to hell…

In retrospect, I suppose we should take bingo, beer, hot-dogs and donuts off the list of things Catholics do to gain salvation but roll it all up into “alms giving”.

James

Here’s to alms giving :getholy:

 

[nmc1a0]

Sometimes the Apostle Paul just nails it with simplicity.
“How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?”

Rom 10:9-10 (Amplified)
“Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.”

 

[Tanner9188]

CFJ is simply saying what St. Augustine has said … “There is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church”…

Does that mean you must convert to be saved ? I doubt it, unless you are being deliberately meanspirited and irascible. But, you need to come to terms with Catholicism, accept it as valid, stop rejecting it as being unscriptural, and learn to dialog with Catholics.

If you will do this, over time Christ may convince you to convert.

**St Augustine was a man; gravely taken out of context many times I believe; but there is nothing higher than God is there? And God did not say anything that CJF stated his last sentence. You show in your own words that you have no idea what it is to be saved from sin, you may be able to discover the truth in your Bible and my prayer for you is that you do. The message of the gospel is not bound in formalized religion, but is in Scripture. This does not mean one must leave their religion; just set aside the things which keeps one from Christ.

God bless!**

 

[Tanner9188]

Sometimes the Apostle Paul just nails it with simplicity.
“How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?”

Rom 10:9-10 (Amplified)
“Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.”

**Oh! you are so close; this is the simplicity of the gospel message, but it doesn’t increase the chance; it is the only true saving grace.

Therefore, having been* justified by faith, we have peace with God* through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. - Rom. 5:1-2

What more can one expect in this life, than having peace with God?**

 

[Tanner9188]

Here’s to alms giving :getholy:

“If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” - St. Augustine

**
Augustine had it exactly right; rather than listening to CFJ or anyone else; including myself, than at least listen to Augustine in context of the message you use for your own signature.**