How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[Tanner9188]

James

The Didache
“Before the baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days… After becoming a Christian] Do not let your fasts be with the hypocrites. They fast on Monday and Thursday, but you shall fast on Wednesday and Friday” (Didache 7:1, 8:1 [A.D. 70]).

**The red; eliminates infant baptism, they don’t have the capacity to become Christians since they cannot understand sin; nor would they understand fasting.

The blue; seems like both are hypocrites since neither is Biblical; in fact that is quite funny IMO.**

 

[Tanner9188]

guanophore:
It is very Catholic of you to say this!

As a matter of fact, I think it is just made up by people that dont’ understand the Apostolic Faith. There really is no such thing as “works salvation”. Since it does not really exist, it is a good idea to stay away from such fanciful imaginations.

Do you believe that the Jews thought they were saved by “works”? If so, I have a question for you. Do you believe the parents of John the Baptist were saved by “works”? God saves the same yesterday, today and tomorrow; He does not change…it is by His saving grace, through faith in Christ (Messiah). He also does the choosing.

Yes, I had to do quite a bit of this, since I was wrongly taught about the nature of salvation and about the meaning of justification

Tell me, what were you taught about justification and salvation before conversion to Catholicism.

God does not ask us to do anything that is beyond our ability. It is He who is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. If it seems like a lot of “work” to you to obey His commandments, then you really are trying to do it from the flesh, rather than the Spirit. Without Him, we can do nothing. And His yoke is easy,and burden light.

**
I was be facetious; looking at the works list. **

 

[holy_moly]

**Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same. - Catholic Encyclopedia

What the Bible says:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us** our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Seems to be a little difference here; God says one thing and your Church teaches something contradictory IMO.

Have you ever confessed to a priest for forgiveness and told to do something to be absolved, like say “Hail Mary” 10 times or something similar? My Aunt talks about this type of being absolved; is she wrong?

My point is that if you are required or even asked by the priest to do something; it is works. I already know the answer to the question, but want to hear your experience.

Then I’m confused tanner, what again do these passages mean other than Jesus commissioning the Apostle’s to forgive The RCC continues to offer this Sacrament after 2000 of the early church doing the same…

20:21 “As the Father has sent me, so I send you… those whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained.” In Mt 18, Jesus tells ‘men’, “Whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven.” In 2 Cor 5 Paul explains, “All this has been done by God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ & has given us the ministry of reconciliation.“ Obviously, Jesus has given authority to his apostles to carry on a ministry of reconciliation, to either forgive or not. This is also affirmed in Luke (10:16) “He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me. And he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me.” We are to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16).
Call penance a work if you want, so what? As I said in an earlier post, Jesus said we must pay the last penny. Forgiveness doesn’t obviate the need for penance…

 

[Tanner9188]

Then I’m confused tanner, what again do these passages mean other than Jesus commissioning the Apostle’s to forgive The RCC continues to offer this Sacrament after 2000 of the early church doing the same…

20:21 “As the Father has sent me, so I send you… those whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained.” In Mt 18, Jesus tells ‘men’, “Whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven.” In 2 Cor 5 Paul explains, “All this has been done by God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ & has given us the ministry of reconciliation.“ Obviously, Jesus has given authority to his apostles to carry on a ministry of reconciliation, to either forgive or not. This is also affirmed in Luke (10:16) “He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me. And he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me.” We are to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16).
Call penance a work if you want, so what? As I said in an earlier post, Jesus said we must pay the last penny. Forgiveness doesn’t obviate the need for penance…

**Thank God for you and being honest!!!

When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven, but do it in reverence and obedience, which give Him glory.
Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all forgiven.

Colossians 1:14 “For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins”.

Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Your error is the believe in absolution from a priest and that the apostles had the power within themselves to forgive sin or bound sin; whereas the power is in the message, not the messenger. Anyone who can present the gospel accurately can say your sins are forgiven if you truly accept the gospel message and likewise, those who reject the message will be bound in their sin…right?

You also misunderstand the nature of God’s forgiveness.

A side note James 5 is an accountability issue. We confess to each other in order to help bear one another’s burdens and there is no greater burden than of carrying the baggage of sin.**

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi James,

Where in the bible can we find this teaching?

It’s in the same place where John told us that not all Jesus ever said and did is NOT WRITTEN. It’s in the same place where Paul taught the 2nd generation Christians (e.g. Timothy and others) to OBEY the HANDED DOWN TRADITIONS AND TEACHINGS many decades before all the NT writings that the Catholic Church discerned and declared inspired were put to tablets and parchment; and 350 years before the Catholic Church declared and defined The Bible and defended it against all heretics.

It’s called Sacred Tradition - the wellspring from which ALL Written Word came into existence - millenium before the common man could read and write and before there were more than a few hundred hand written bibles in circulation world wide - long before Luther ripped out 7 OT books and tried to take out 5 more NT books from the Catholic Bible before his own supporters shamed him out of it.

It’s written here in the apostolic traditions and in many other dozens of scriptures:

More here: scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

*Mark 13:31 - heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus’ Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

[Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally.

Mark 3:14; 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn’t He have said a word about it?

Luke 10:16 - He who hears you (not “who reads your writings”), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.

Luke 24:47 - Jesus explains that repentance and forgiveness of sins must be preached (not written) in Christ’s name to all nations. For Protestants to argue that the word of God is now limited to a book (subject to thousands of different interpretations) is to not only ignore Scripture, but introduce a radical theory about how God spreads His word which would have been unbelievable to the people at the time of Jesus.

Acts 2:3-4 - the Holy Spirit came to the apostles in the form of “tongues” of fire so that they would “speak” (not just write) the Word.

Acts 15:27 - Judas and Silas, successors to the apostles, were sent to bring God’s infallible Word by “word of mouth.”

Rom. 10:8 - the Word is near you, on your lips and in your heart, which is the word of faith which is preached (not just written).

Rom. 10:17 - faith comes by what is “heard” (not just read) which is the Word that is “preached” (not read). This word comes from the oral tradition of the apostles. Those in countries where the Scriptures are not available can still come to faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:1,11 - faith comes from what is “preached” (not read). For non-Catholics to argue that oral tradition once existed but exists no longer, they must prove this from Scripture. But no where does Scripture say oral tradition died with the apostles. To the contrary, Scripture says the oral word abides forever.

Gal. 1:11-12 - the Gospel which is “preached” (not read) to me is not a man’s Gospel, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph. 1:13 - hearing (not reading) the Word of truth is the gospel of our salvation. This is the living word in the Church’s living tradition.

Col. 1:5 - of this you have “heard” (not read) before in the word of truth, the Gospel which has come to you.

1 Thess. 2:13 - the Word of God is what you have “heard” (not read). The orally communicated word of God lasts forever, and this word is preserved within the Church by the Holy Spirit.

2 Tim. 1:13 - oral communications are protected by the Spirit. They abide forever. Oral authority does not die with the apostles.

2 Tim. 4:2,6-7 - Paul, at the end of his life, charges Timothy to preach (not write) the Word. Oral teaching does not die with Paul.

Titus 1:3 - God’s word is manifested “through preaching” (not writing). This “preaching” is the tradition that comes from the apostles.

1 Peter 1:25 - the Word of the Lord abides forever and that Word is the good news that was “preached” (not read) to you. Because the Word is preached by the apostles and it lasts forever, it must be preserved by the apostles’ successors, or this could not be possible. Also, because the oral word abides forever, oral apostolic tradition could not have died in the fourth century with all teachings being committed to Scripture.

2 Peter 1:12, 15 - Peter says that he will leave a “means to recall these things in mind.” But since this was his last canonical epistle, this “means to recall” must therefore be the apostolic tradition and teaching authority of his office that he left behind.

2 John 1:12; 3 John 13 - John prefers to speak and not to write. Throughout history, the Word of God was always transferred orally and Jesus did not change this. To do so would have been a radical departure from the Judaic tradition.

Deut. 31:9-12 - Moses had the law read only every seven years. Was the word of God absent during the seven year interval? Of course not. The Word of God has always been given orally by God’s appointed ones, and was never limited to Scripture.

Isa. 40:8 - the grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our God (not necessarily written) will stand forever.

Isa. 59:21 - Isaiah prophesies the promise of a living voice to hand on the Word of God to generations by mouth, not by a book. This is either a false prophecy, or it has been fulfilled by the Catholic Church.

Joel 1:3 - tell your children of the Word of the Lord, and they tell their children, and their children tell another generation.

Mal. 2:7 - the lips of a priest guard knowledge, and we should seek instruction from his mouth. Protestants want to argue all oral tradition was committed to Scripture? But no where does Scripture say this. *

[cont]

James*

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from above]

Now can you show us in the bible where the bible tells us it is the sole and complete word of God? NO - you can not since its not in there - JUST like concepts such as the Trinity, Personal Lord and Savior, Altar Calls, Rapture Salvation, Prosperity Gospel ARE NOT written in the bible - yet most every Protestants believes in one of more of these. WHY is THAT? Tradition! Some Sacred (Catholic - apostolic tradition) other tradition mere man-made neo-Christianity traditions from from the Reformers and their errant children…

Here are a few quick links to get you started but you will have to read yourself:

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
Google CAF: Indulgence References

Pax,
James

 

[JustaServant]

From the Catholic point of view, we cannot receive God’s Sanctifying Grace but by Baptism, and we cannot retain it without living the sacramental life of the Church.
From the Catechism:

774 . . .The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head through the Church which is his Body. . .

1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

I think, then, that the Sacraments are not there to give us a nudge, but rather to transform us. Whether one calls it a sin nature or a state of original sin, man cannot do anything on his own to merit salvation. He requires a Savior, who is Christ. Christ instituted Sacraments by which man is saved. Man, by faith, reaches up to accept that which has always been offered since Christ’s passion and death. Man can choose whether to accept it, or whether to retain it once it is gained. Once he has Sanctifying Grace from Baptism, he can receive Actual Graces from other sacraments (as well as regular prayer, Scripture Study, etc.), which serve, to help better align his will to God’s.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi James,

Time still owed to whom? If it is owed to God, then why pretend that we may “shorten” a debt owed to God? If it isn’t owed to God, then who? If I believed the Catholic teaching about purgatory I would hardly see the wisdom in trying to get a person out of purgatory any sooner than the moment the full length of time owed had passed.

It is owed to God’s Justice. NO ONE gets to heaven until the last farthing of every sin is paid. There are 2 components of debt associated with sin:

1. Eternal Debt owed to God since He is Eternal and therefore sin creates an Eternal debt to God.
2. Temporal Debt - consequences in the hear and now for our sins against each other, damage to reputations, property, other’s future and personal harm, loss of income etc.

Jesus completely paid for #1 since He being Divine can do that where no human ever can. But the debts Jesus paid do not pay for all our debts and consequences in the hear and now (temporal debts). If I break your car windshield because I am angry at you then later regret it and ask forgiveness and confess to God. God forgives me the eternal debt and you can forgive me for it too. BUT for justice sake and to “do the right thing” it is incumbent on me to try to repair your window. I’d feel terrible if my malicious act resulted in your little girl sitting in a wet car seat when it rains and you can’t get around to getting it fixed till your next pay check. See here there is additional consequence to the forgiven sin in this material world that not only effects you and me but others as well. If your little girl got sick because of me and died from pneumonia I’d never forgive myself and it would be irresponsible and an insincere sort of apology for me if I did not try and desire to make some restitution to prevent the sin from causing more suffering to others. Can’t you see that?

Faith and reason must be conjoined. These sort of insights come out of tradition and from deep spiritual discernment using faith to illumine reason so we can ascertain how to “do the right thing” as Christians. It is always better to shed more tears than not enough tears when we are sorry. Even Zaccheus over-paid his tax-cheating 400% to repent and make restitution.

*Luke 19:8 Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.” *

Consider too that God desires to honor His elect - even before they attain their eternal salvation. He wants us to help each other to get to The Promised Land by carrying each other and helping each other. The debts of purgatory can be till the end of time (2nd comming) for those barely escaping damnation. For example it is said that those who repent for the grave sin of abortion owe God a daily life-long penance for the offense to such innocent loss of life and it would be more than just to suffer purgatory till His 2nd comming (end of time) for preventing an innocent one from reaching its potential to be a great saint in life etc. since it has an eternal consequence on another soul. Do you comprehend the severity of some of our debts and the consequences of sin in the spiritual world? Most never think this deeply - but every sin effects every other human in some way - there are ETERNAL consequences. But God desires for us to share in each other’s sufferings as an expression of love. So through sufferage in imitation of what He did on the cross to free our eternal debts He too is very pleased to see us extending our own charity for each other for temporal debts (the most we can ever contribute to being merely human). St. Paul saw it early on in the apostolic era.

Here is a classic case of suffering in the hear and now to offset the temporal consequences of sin that Christ wants us to share in as part of carrying OUR OWN crosses so we can bind ourselves to Him and be Christ-like:

Cols 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

Never forget too that those in Purgatory are ALREADY JUDGED WORTHY of heaven. These souls GLADLY suffer to purify ever last residual of appetite for forgiven sin. No soul in purgatory has any unforgiven sins - just debts for not completing their repentance and penance on earth. It is a suffering-joy and the greater pain in purgatory is being still in separation from God knowing that they are still not 100% sanctified yet till all traces of concupiscence can be spiritually burned away by God’s love. So God is more than happy to let us on earth advance these souls and lend our grace through supernatural sufferage to them so to speak. It is a work-of-grace from heaven-to-earth-to-purgatory and it part of God’s economy of Grace. It is one of the spiritual works that God is very pleased to give His servants on earth.

James

 

[brb2]

**

St Augustine was a man; gravely taken out of context many times I believe; !

**

By whom, Catholics or Protestants ? Lets provide you some proper context …

From THE TRUE RELIGION, St. Augustine, 390 AD

[We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the WHOLE WORLD EMPLOYS IN HER REGARD.]

Give us your interpretation of this … Tanner.

---

And from FORGIVENESS AND THE JUST DESERTS OF SINS, AND THE BAPTISM OF INFANTS, ST, A. , 412 AD

[It is an excellent thing that the Punic [Carthage] Christians call Baptism itself nothing else but SALVATION, and the Sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else but LIFE. Whence does this derive, except from the ancient and , as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without Baptism and the participation at the table of the Lord IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY MAN to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and the life eternal? This is the witness of the Scripture too.]

So … there you go Tanner. ///// Baptism & Eucharist are essential Sacraments … supported by both Apostolic Traditions and Scripture. The ‘kingdom’ of God … aka, the Church eternal.

 

[brb2]

**

Augustine had it exactly right; rather than listening to CFJ or anyone else; including myself, than at least listen to Augustine in context of the message you use for your own signature.

**

Tanner … good to see your mentor is St. Augustine.

Give us some more from the great Saint … and lets see if ANY of your anti-Catholic beliefs finds support from his writings.

 

[brb2]

**Water baptism; especially that of an infant cannot remove sin; it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is the true baptism that saves; water never saved anyone, nor does the Bible speak of removing original sin versus any other sin; sin is sin in god’s view.

.**

Wrongo … we can quote St. Augustine to you on this, proving the early Church believed otherwise.

Its clear you feel Cradle Catholics don’t have the H.S. You think Catholics have not been Reborn … in same manner you have. How can you possibly make such a conclusion? Do you talk in tongues … and feel that is ‘essential evidence’ of spiritual rebirth ?

Give us your Top 10 beefs about Catholic dogma … and we will disprove every one.

 

[Tanner9188]

[from above]

Now can you show us in the bible where the bible tells us it is the sole and complete word of God? NO - you can not since its not in there - JUST like concepts such as the Trinity, Personal Lord and Savior, Altar Calls, Rapture Salvation, Prosperity Gospel ARE NOT written in the bible - yet most every Protestants believes in one of more of these. WHY is THAT? Tradition! Some Sacred (Catholic - apostolic tradition) other tradition mere man-made neo-Christianity traditions from from the Reformers and their errant children…

Here are a few quick links to get you started but you will have to read yourself:

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
Google CAF: Indulgence References

Pax,
James

**Where is Roman Catholic or Catholic in the Bible; at least the others are explicit or implicit.
“as it is written”
69 times in the Bible:
searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=%22it+is+written%22&section=0&translation=nas&oq=religion&new=1

“was written” 20 times

“Scripture” 32 times

“written” 251 times**

 

[Tanner9188]

Wrongo … we can quote St. Augustine to you on this, proving the early Church believed otherwise.

Its clear you feel Cradle Catholics don’t have the H.S. You think Catholics have not been Reborn … in same manner you have. How can you possibly make such a conclusion? Do you talk in tongues … and feel that is ‘essential evidence’ of spiritual rebirth ?

Give us your Top 10 beefs about Catholic dogma … and we will disprove every one.

**You believe the Church teaching, IMO, over Scripture; so what?
Matthew 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

How many types of Baptisms do you see in this one verse? How many do you see? How many?

What is more important; what Augustine said or what the Bible says? Which is more important to you?**

 

[Tanner9188]

By whom, Catholics or Protestants ? Lets provide you some proper context …

From THE TRUE RELIGION, St. Augustine, 390 AD

[We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the WHOLE WORLD EMPLOYS IN HER REGARD.]

Give us your interpretation of this … Tanner.

**You might want to take that large “C” and bring it down to a little “c”; as in universal, not Catholic or Roman Catholic. Changes the meaning and context quite a bit.
**

---

And from FORGIVENESS AND THE JUST DESERTS OF SINS, AND THE BAPTISM OF INFANTS, ST, A. , 412 AD

[It is an excellent thing that the Punic [Carthage] Christians call Baptism itself nothing else but SALVATION, and the Sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else but LIFE. Whence does this derive, except from the ancient and , as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without Baptism and the participation at the table of the Lord IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY MAN to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and the life eternal? This is the witness of the Scripture too.]

So … there you go Tanner. ///// Baptism & Eucharist are essential Sacraments … supported by both Apostolic Traditions and Scripture. The ‘kingdom’ of God … aka, the Church eternal.

Show me in the Bible the baptism of one infant and I might agree. Show me the Eucharist - never mind about that one; that will open an old can of worms. sigh

 

[JustaServant]

Tanner, Catholics believe that the fullness of divine revelation consists both of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Christ founded a Church, which preceded Scripture. Scripture comes from the Church, not the other way around.
That doesn’t mean that Catholics don’t read Scripture. Every Catholic Church I have attended has had Bible Study. We read Sacred Scripture at every Mass–OT, Psalms, and NT. Personal reading of the Bible is encouraged by the Church. Saint Jerome, who translated a vernacular bible in the 4th Century, wrote that, for a Catholic, “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” We revere Scripture as an inerrant source of the teachings of Christ.
Rather, it means that we believe that it is not sufficient ON ITS OWN to explain the fullness of divine revelation. It needs an infallible interpreter to prevent error. In fact, Scripture itself does not, anywhere, say that it is to be the only guide to faith. Rather, it tells us that it is not a matter of private interpretation (the Epistle of Peter). It tells us that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles to guide the Church to all Truth.
Christ founded a Church, He didn’t write a book.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Sola Fide
“Easy believism” (AKA: Sola Fide) is a derogatory term used by “opponents” of the view that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. You incorrectly conclude that those who hold to sola fide (faith alone) are saying that no corresponding need exists for a committed life of Christian discipleship as proof of salvation, but this is not true.
Those who use the term “easy believism” are confusing justification—the one-time act of being declared righteous by God—with sanctification—the lifelong process by which the justified believer is conformed to the image of Christ.
Anyone who calls salvation by faith “easy believism” misses the fact that true conversion will always result in a life long sanctification process that will be full of good works, which God prepared for His own to walk in.
I NEVER said CATHOLICS are going to HELL; that is GOD’S work. I do not expect to see anyone in Heaven that has a distorted view and belief in another gospel as the Bible teaches. That is for you to discern between what the Bible teaches and what your religion teaches; if it is in accord with Scripture, then fine, but if not, then there is another gospel.
While the security of salvation is a biblical fact based upon the finished work of salvation by Christ, it is certainly true that some of those who seemed to have “made a decision” or “accepted Christ” may not genuinely be saved. As I have stated before, true salvation is not so much our accepting Christ or knowing Christ, but whether He knows and accepts us.

There is no such thing as a one-time-act of being declared “righteous” with God Tanner. This is a neo-Christian teaching that no Apostle EVER taught.

One is initially justified in baptism and this is what starts the life-long sanctification process. But the apostles NEVER taught the easy-believism if “perpetual justification” as a forensic legal event - this is Pharisaical thinking and a thing that Christ condemned. Justification can be lost - there are hundreds of verses in the bible that tell us this - not to mention The Church has taught this for 2,000 years.

So those who use the term “easy believism” are correct in that people imagine that justification is a one time mental event of believing. You have no alternative but to admit that everything down stream of that forensic event is a work Tanner - you can’t have it both ways. Once Saved Always Saved is a pragmatically useless doctrine since no on knows they are saved until God judges them saved (except I think you presume to judge yourself and me and others here in place of God - which is itself a self-condeming contradiction).

No apostles taught this. Nor does the Holy Spirit teach this. So whatever is teaching you this is silly neo-Chrisianity is not of God. Sorry - you may have fallen victim to your own double-predestiny theology and be one of those who is just has to accept the reality that you are not of the elect for as long as you chose a destiny to believe in heretical doctrines. Your doctrine would make a mentally incapacitated person ineligible for salvation or make a person who was “saved” at the age of reason become unsaved in latter life if they developed Alzheimer’s and forget they were already saved and accepted uh, who was it was were talking about, oh yeah, Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Just brilliant logic Tanner. Use some common sense and then go back and re read the scriptures that refute OSAS as one of the most vile of Satanic teachings we know.

Scripture Catholic: Justification = Inner Change of Person (Infusion); Not Just a Declaration by God (Imputation)
Scripture Catholic: Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a one-time event
Scripture Catholic:We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Scripture Catholic: Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation
Scripture Catholic:Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
Scripture Catholic: Salvation

Sorry - but at this moment in time I’d have to say you are not saved Tanner if you have ever committed a post-baptismal mortal sin and have not performed a perfect act of contrition (which is impossible without grace).

James

James

 

[brb2]

**___________________________________________________________________

**Show me in the Bible the baptism of one infant and I might agree. Show me the Eucharist - never mind about that one; that will open an old can of worms. sigh

---

Tanner …

You are having to face some issues you never considered before. Namely, not everything about the Church is written in the scriptures. Traditions were the norm.

However, scripture does allow the Church authority to ‘bind and loose’ sin on earth. This allows the Church leadership to define traditions, when events in history demand issues be addressed.

Re: infant baptism

It happened at Pentecost, and is described for us in scriptures.

Acts 2:38-42 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be Baptized EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you AND TO YOUR CHILDREN” … and they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, TO THE BREAKING OF BREAD and the prayers.

Also Luke 18:15-17 Now they were bringing INFANTS to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it , they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him , saying, “LET THE CHILDREN COME TO ME, AND DO NOT HINDER THEM; SO TO SUCH BELONGS THE KINGDOM OF GOD. TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, WHOEVER DOES NOT RECEIVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD LIKE A CHILD SHALL NOT ENTER IT.”

The Kingdom of God … is the Church eternal. And the Church started on day #1, with Baptism and Eucharist.

 

[CentralFLJames]

**Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same. - Catholic Encyclopedia

What the Bible says:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us** our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Seems to be a little difference here; God says one thing and your Church teaches something contradictory IMO.

Have you ever confessed to a priest for forgiveness and told to do something to be absolved, like say “Hail Mary” 10 times or something similar? My Aunt talks about this type of being absolved; is she wrong?

My point is that if you are required or even asked by the priest to do something; it is works. I already know the answer to the question, but want to hear your experience.

It’s pretty silly for a Protestant who rejects penance to be trying to teach a Catholic what it means. You picked up on only ONE of two related meanings to the word. One had to know what context they are in to know which meaning applies. If one is talking to about needing to be forgiven of sin this means The Sacrament of PENANCE (aka the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, or “Confession” etc). But when one talks about performing “penance” in the context of forgiven sins or for develping an interior disposition of humility and sorrow it is taken to mean praying, fasting, alms-giving, crying, reading scripture and doing charitable works to help us focus on the solemnity and reverence we must show God in our true sorrow. It is all part of “getting healed” and “right” again with God since sin that is forgiven can benefit a person in the pains of coming back to God and actually attaining higher grace in overcoming that forgiven sin an truely repenting at a deep-spiritual and heart-felt level. There is a saying that no one is repenting if he is not shedding real tears and feeling real spiritual sorrow for offending God. Penance helps develop this interior “right” attitude.

You need to re-read your bible and see how the apostles actually taught us that repentance is more than a lip-serice “sorry Lord”. It requries a real-tears, real-spiritual God given works through cooperation with our recognition of the gravity of what we have done to offend God, our Church, ourselves (disgraced), or relationship with others and even against nature itself.

Links to Articles on Penance
Rev 2:5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

Acts 26:20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

Luke 15:7 say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

Mark 1:4 John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins. [ed: note John’s baptism was not a trinitarian Christian baptism - but the penance and repentance necesasry to convert]

2 Cor 12:21 Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not **done penance **for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed.

Mathew 3:2 And [John the Baptist] saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Rev 3:3 Have in mind therefore in what manner thou hast received and heard: and observe, and do penance. If then thou shalt not watch, I will come to thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come to thee.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.
…*

I could go on for a dozen more scripture verses if you like Tanner. How many times does the Bible have to tell you that you MUST do PENANCE for sin. This is NOT a dead work it is a God given supernatural WORK that is absolutely essential to gain the higher-ordered supernatural repentance where the Holy Spirit can transform the disgraced soul from its natural human nature to elevate it to the supernatural nature. If you do not adequately repent anddo penance then you will quickly fall back into that sin for being insincere in your sorrow - even when forgiven. God is not Mocked. If that happens God may harden your heart and you will give up. If you die in despair then you will simply die as an unregenerate natural human soul just like the caterpillar-worm dies in the cocoon and never metamorphoses into the spiritual new creation (butterfly) that God has empowered each of us to become if we but OBEY what He tells us and follow His instructions. Note that OBEY, REPENT, DO PENANCE are all VERBS Tanner - JUST like BELIEVE IS. One must believe with all their hearts, minds and souls and that means a radical change of nature. That also means you MUST cooperate with grace to actually do ALL these things or you are simply toast - you will fizzle in the cocoon and die with only a lower caste natural human soul without any supernatural grace to lift you up. You will not be able to rise above your corrupt human nature to ascend to heaven. Those who fail to transform themselves can’t prevail against the gravity of hell and will rush like moths headlong into the bonfire - imagining it is their natural home (and it is).

James

 

[Mick_Taylor]

It’s in the same place where John told us that not all Jesus ever said and did is NOT WRITTEN. It’s in the same place where Paul taught the 2nd generation Christians (e.g. Timothy and others) to OBEY the HANDED DOWN TRADITIONS AND TEACHINGS many decades before all the NT writings that the Catholic Church discerned and declared inspired were put to tablets and parchment; and 350 years before the Catholic Church declared and defined The Bible and defended it against all heretics.

If this teaching:

The sole thing the Church does is recommend to God the treasury of the merits of the Church won by Christ and His Saints to REQUEST that God relieve a soul in purgatory from time still owed or to offset the temporal debts for forgiven sins of persons still living who are seeking the indulgence.

was, or is, NOT WRITTEN, how did you discover it?

It’s called Sacred Tradition - the wellspring from which ALL Written Word came into existence - millenium before the common man could read and write and before there were more than a few hundred hand written bibles in circulation world wide - long before Luther ripped out 7 OT books and tried to take out 5 more NT books from the Catholic Bible before his own supporters shamed him out of it.

It’s written here in the apostolic traditions and in many other dozens of scriptures:

(Edited for length)

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

[SimonArizona]

What is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth?

Catholics don’t answer