How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[guanophore]

On the other hand, I have posted elsewhere that I would lay down my life for the belief that God declares the believing sinner righteous through faith alone in Christ. Please forgive me in advance if I come across as too harsh in these forums, but I 1,000% believe in this doctrine. With that said, you may understand why I could never become a Catholic. “Here I stand. I can do no other. So help me God.”

You might be standing much closer to Catholicism than you realize.

Try reading the joint declaration on justification for an eye opener!

 

[moondweller]

**As I schooled Tanner **a few posts ago, I shall also school you, my prideful friend.
The following verses speak to the CONTEXT of the New Testament on the subject.
You see - CONTEXT is what you get when you take the scriptures at their intended meaning - not simply picking a verse here and there and building doctrines around them when there are other scriptures that speak clearly against them. Salvation is NOT a slam-dunk - it is a process - and those who endure to the end will be saved.

Define “saved.”

The fact is, my angry friend, that true believers in Christ can and DO fall into serious sin even AFTER being born again.Do you understand salvation to be based on not sinning?

 

[moondweller]

Do you imply the Catholic Church is a ‘stumbling block’ and guity of ‘lawlessness’ ?

The “tares” are individuals. It doesn’t matter what church they belong to.

And, pedigree means nothing to Christians? Why then did Matthew go to great lengths to set forth Christ’s pedigree … from Adam to Joseph/Mary ? And why did Christ repeatedly refer to himself as "son of man’, and scriptures teach him decended from David ?

Indeed, the elect are reborn ‘into Christ’. Our unique pedigree is EVERYTHING to us. The Church is our ‘heritage’, our history, our necessity. Until you accept the Church for what it is … you are gravely errant.

Is the Apostolic message about a church? Is God a respecter of men?

 

[moondweller]

Hmm, how about those people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ but still keep sinning—I mean those who still rape, and fornicate, and lie, and steal, and etc.—aren’t they lawless too?

Well, based on your description define “believe,” as in, “those people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ but keep on sinning.”

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Catholics know who builds the City of God that is built on the solid rock foundations of the Apostle and know who is the ambassador/Vicar who has its keys in safekeeping for The Lord.

How do Catholics know this?

One can not even properly worship God without the true faith MD - ask Cain about that. This is why Catholics offer to God the one Holy and pleasing sacrifice knowing in full faith that this is what God desires.

The bible tells us that He is to be worshiped in spirit and in truth. The only sacrifice that has the power to wash away your sins is Jesus, who gave Himself ONCE as sacrifice.

Unless you are redefining the word faith without a footnote to qualify it to mean both belief and obedience then you are in error and not biblical. Is this your intention?

I think you are mistaken here, James. The definition of “faith” does not mean “both belief and obedience.” If it did, then the apostle James is wasting his time in James chapter two when he tells us that faith without works is dead.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

James, how do you interpret this verse? Is the apostle James contradicting Paul?

 

[nuntym]

Well, based on your description define “believe,” as in, “those people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ but keep on sinning.”

Well, I dunno, like how Martin Luther taught?

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” [Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521]

“A person that is baptized cannot, thou he would, lose his salvation by any sins however grievous, unless he refuses to believe. For no sins can damn him but unbelief alone." [The Babylonian Captivity]

 

[nuntym]

I think you are mistaken here, James. The definition of “faith” does not mean “both belief and obedience.” If it did, then the apostle James is wasting his time in James chapter two when he tells us that faith without works is dead.

That is the most convoluted interpretation of Scripture I’ve ever read.

James, how do you interpret this verse? Is the apostle James contradicting Paul?

Just tell us Mick, what does it mean to you?

 

[brb2]

Is the Apostolic message about a church? Is God a respecter of men?

Yes & Yes

Paul’s work was soul winning & Church building. The gospel is both moral & social. Some of us here tend to focus exclusively on one or the other. But, examine Catholicism from AD 33 to present. It is the Beatitudes & Piety. God expects both from us, individually and collectively.

As a ‘Faith Alone’ Protestant, I couldn’t do either very well … for very long, and I repeately would return to ‘old’ ways. I’ve been judged repeatedly, since my first belief. Purgatory is for real … and much of it is needed in this world, to REFORM the heretic / schismatic reformers.

The Church is a shining city on a hill, serving as a VISIBLE witness to the world. There have been times when it was so oppressed it had to briefly go underground … but, in the main, it’s been visible.

Why does the Church draw so much attention from the errant ? It’s MAGNETIC ! Its got Christ as its head … and his ‘real presence’ is always & everywhere celebrated … and INFUSED into the celebrants. It’s indestructible, & always right on message faith, morals, charity, & social matters].

Christ eternally RESPECTS and protects his Church[men/women]. All those infused by grace, standing on [within] the ROCK. Christ protected the first Apostles [those who were clean], and he has eversince defended his/their disciples with Fatherly/Brotherly/Motherly COVENANTAL love.

Its the Source … of all you[we] need. Develop a R E S P E C T … for Christ’s Church Universal. The FRONT door is aways open, and the LIGHT is ever present.

 

[moondweller]

Well, I dunno, like how Martin Luther taught?

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” [Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521]

“A person that is baptized cannot, thou he would, lose his salvation by any sins however grievous, unless he refuses to believe. For no sins can damn him but unbelief alone." [The Babylonian Captivity]

You still didn’t define “believe” as in “those people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ but keep on sinning.” Please do, without making reference to other people.

 

[WASP]

You might be standing much closer to Catholicism than you realize.

Try reading the joint declaration on justification for an eye opener!

I glanced at that document briefly. I’ll have to read it in full later.

Quick question though: In the section marked “Biblical Message on Justification,” is that the Roman Catholic view? I know that–in point 11–I have a problem with the statement that justification “occurs in the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism.” I’m not really sure what the Lutheran view is, but this Anabaptist sees baptism as an external symbol of the inner response of faith that has already brought justification and life to the believing sinner.

Perhaps I’m reading the statement wrong and they mean that at the moment of faith, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, which is our placement into the body of Christ. Maybe they emphasizing that justification and our placement int he body of Christ are simultaneous.

 

[elvisman]

Define “saved.”

We are saved by the blood of Christ.
**As Catholics, we believe in the biblical prescription of salvation and the Scriptures tell us that we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), that we’re being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and that we have the hope that we will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). **
Paul knew this and that’s why he said:
“I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

The Scriptures CLEARLY tell us that salvation is a process. Being born again gives us the HOPE of salvation. Unless we are born again, we cannot be saved.
You are under the false assumption that salvation is a slam-dunk, one-time event. You are wrong.

Do you understand salvation to be based on not sinning?

And do you understand that you still sin AFTER being born again? I have yet to meet a sinless person. Do you know any?
We don’t lose our proclivity toward sin (concupiscence) simply because we are born again. This is an affliction that we must battle daily.

In Luke 9:23, Jesus said, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me".
The operative word here is DAILY. We must struggle DAILY in order to make it.

Baptism imparts sanctifying grace and that is why Jesus was so adamant about this in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19).
In 1 Peter 3:19-20, he speaks of how Noah’s family was saved through water. In verse 21, he goes on to say, "This prefigured baptism, which now saves you."
And, in Acts 2:38, he says, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."

**John 1:8-10 emphatically makes the following statement against people who believe as you do: **
**If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. **
**If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. **
If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

**Finally, just to show you that true believers still sin - Jesus tells his disciples that they are to confess their sins - even on a daily **basis (Matt. 6:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4).

So - what is your definition of saved? And, do you understand you continue to sin even after being born again?

 

[nuntym]

You still didn’t define “believe” as in “those people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ but keep on sinning.” Please do, without making reference to other people.

“Believe” as in to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world; to believe that everything He said is true, and that I cannot save myself from eternal death except through His grace.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Just tell us Mick, what does it mean to you?

This passage (James 2:14-26) is about the relationship between two different things: FAITH and WORKS.

James is bringing to our attention that anyone–even the demons can SAY they have faith, but is the claim that you have faith justified even though you do nothing at all to demonstrate it? Why should anyone take you seriously if you only SAY you wish them well but you do nothing for them when you see that they are in need?

By ignoring the context, many Catholics completely miss the point that James is making and try to bring James into conflict with Paul who says,

Rom. 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[davidv]

Originally Posted by nuntym forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Just tell us Mick, what does it mean to you?

This passage (James 2:14-26) is about the relationship between two different things: FAITH and WORKS.

James is bringing to our attention that anyone–even the demons can SAY they have faith, but is the claim that you have faith justified even though you do nothing at all to demonstrate it? Why should anyone take you seriously if you only SAY you wish them well but you do nothing for them when you see that they are in need?

By ignoring the context, many Catholics completely miss the point that James is making and try to bring James into conflict with Paul who says,

Rom. 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Do you honestly think this answered the question you responded to? I don’t think so.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Do you honestly think this answered the question you responded to? I don’t think so.

I was doing my best to answer the question, how do I interpret James 2:24? If I have not adequately answered this, just let me know what it is specifically that needs to be clarified. Thanks!

 

[davidv]

I was doing my best to answer the question, how do I interpret James 2:24? If I have not adequately answered this, just let me know what it is specifically that needs to be clarified. Thanks!

Sorry, I lost the trail of the subject matter. I retract my statement.

 

[brb2]

We are saved by the blood of Christ.
As Catholics, we believe in the biblical prescription of salvation and the Scriptures tell us that we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), that we’re being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and that we have the hope that we will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Paul knew this and that’s why he said:
“I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

The Scriptures CLEARLY tell us that salvation is a process. Being born again gives us the HOPE of salvation. Unless we are born again, we cannot be saved.
You are under the false assumption that salvation is a slam-dunk, one-time event. You are wrong.

And do you understand that you still sin AFTER being born again? I have yet to meet a sinless person. Do you know any?
We don’t lose our proclivity toward sin (concupiscence) simply because we are born again. This is an affliction that we must battle daily.

In Luke 9:23, Jesus said, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me".
The operative word here is DAILY. We must struggle DAILY in order to make it.

Baptism imparts sanctifying grace and that is why Jesus was so adamant about this in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19).
In 1 Peter 3:19-20, he speaks of how Noah’s family was saved through water. In verse 21, he goes on to say, "This prefigured baptism, which now saves you."
And, in Acts 2:38, he says, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."

John 1:8-10 emphatically makes the following statement against people who believe as you do:
If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
**If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. **
If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

**Finally, just to show you that true believers still sin - Jesus tells his disciples that they are to confess their sins - even on a daily **basis (Matt. 6:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4).

So - what is your definition of saved? And, do you understand you continue to sin even after being born again?

Well said Elvis …

You continue to take Md ‘to school’ on the sacred scriptures …

DAILY is the operative word … Md.

 

[nuntym]

This passage (James 2:14-26) is about the relationship between two different things: FAITH and WORKS.

James is bringing to our attention that anyone–even the demons can SAY they have faith, but is the claim that you have faith justified even though you do nothing at all to demonstrate it? Why should anyone take you seriously if you only SAY you wish them well but you do nothing for them when you see that they are in need?

Oh-ho-ho. You forget Jesus’ dealings with demons in the 4 Gospel books. Not only did they demonstrate their belief to Jesus as the Lord God by lip service only, but by their actions as well, for they cannot resist the Lord’s commands to leave the people they possessed.

By ignoring the context, many Catholics completely miss the point that James is making and try to bring James into conflict with Paul who says,

Rom. 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

And that is why I said your interpretation of the book of James chapter 2 is convoluted.

Do you not realize that anything that is considered “dead” loses its nature? A human person who dies ceases to be a human person. A human which loses its soul, its spirit, its nature of being alive, ceases to be a human, but becomes a corpse. A human which loses its body, its nature of being matter, ceases to be a human, but becomes a ghost. THAT is what St. James is trying to say in the second chapter of his book. Yes, faith might be different from good works, from obeying the Lord’s commands, but in the sense that to obey is as integral to faith as the soul is to a human person.

For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:26

A dead faith, a faith without works, in other words, is a false faith.

But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
James 2:18

PLEASE NOTE that no where did I say, nor does the Catholic Church say, that good works/obeying the Lord’s commands alone can justify man. (It may be beneficial if someone may post here what the Council of Trent had to say on this matter) However, remember that the mere act of having faith IS an act itself of obeying the Lord’s command to believe Him, and thus a good work.

And that is why we say that to have faith must be to believe AND to obey.

NOTE: Sorry the only Bible version I can handle in this mode of surfing the net is the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

PLEASE NOTE that no where did I say, nor does the Catholic Church say, that good works/obeying the Lord’s commands alone can justify man. (It may be beneficial if someone may post here what the Council of Trent had to say on this matter)

Hi nuntym,

Please note that no where does the bible suggest that **the good works **that go along with faith in Jesus have anything to do with making a person saved.

However, remember that the mere act of having faith IS an act itself of obeying the Lord’s command to believe Him, and thus a good work.

It seems to me that having faith is not an act; it is a free gift that God gives to whom ever He is pleased to give it to.

And that is why we say that to have faith must be to believe AND to obey.

We do not obey very well, for in our flesh, we are still struggling with sin even after receiving the faith. Since God is HOLY, our imperfect obedience is not good enough to help us merit eternal life. God is HOLY. He will not become a partner in a cooperative effort involving our sin.

 

[nuntym]

Hi nuntym,

Please note that no where does the bible suggest that **the good works **that go along with faith in Jesus have anything to do with making a person saved.

25:31. And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 25:32. And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 25:33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 25:34. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 25:35. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: 25:36. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 25:37. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink? 25:38. Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee? 25:39. Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee? 25:40. And the king answering shall say to them: **Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.**25:41. Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 25:42. **For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. 25:43. I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. **25:44. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? 25:45. Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 25:46. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Matthew 25:31-45 (Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible)

It seems to me that having faith is not an act; it is a free gift that God gives to whom ever He is pleased to give it to.

Yes, but anyone can still reject a gift.

We do not obey very well, for in our flesh, we are still struggling with sin even after receiving the faith. Since God is HOLY, our imperfect obedience is not good enough to help us merit eternal life. God is HOLY. He will not become a partner in a cooperative effort involving our sin.

You never had a son or daughter, have you?

EDIT: I hate typing in a smartphone