How does a Catholic increase the chance of getting into Heaven?

[moondweller]

Catholicism is all about INFUSION of Christ to us, by grace.

I know. It’s the basis for your doctrine of “initial” salvation and “initial” justification via water baptism.

Tell me this —
Why do you reject the concept of INFUSION ?

Non-Biblical

Why does it scare you ?

It doesn’t.

Why are you comfortable with Christ in Heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father … yet afraid to receive him within yourself via the Eucharist

I’m not afraid of that which does not exist.

… or Baptism for that
matter?

I received Him via faith.

Until you acknowledge INFUSION of grace as the normative means of receiving the indwelling H.S. … you are ‘holding Christ off at a distance’. Read the Gospel of John. He will set you straight on H.S. … and why it must be INFUSED, and not CONFUSED [with imputation means].

I’ve read many times the Gospel of John and have memorized large portions of it. I’ve yet to find the idea there of anything being “infused” into the soul. And what did you mean when you wrote, “He will set you straight on H.S. … and why IT must be INFUSED.” What’s the “it?” Based on Catholic theology I know what it’s suppose to mean, but in the context of what you wrote I’m not sure what YOU meant.

 

[brb2]

Non-Biblical

I’ve yet to find the idea there of anything being “infused” into the soul.

.

Your mind ‘blocks’ out the idea. Teachings in scripture that don’t fit your indoctrinations …you reject w/o further consideration.

Since when did you let the facts get in the way of ‘your truth’ ?

 

[brb2]

.I’ve read many times the Gospel of John and have memorized large portions of it. I’ve yet to find the idea there of anything being “infused” into the soul.

.

John 6:56 “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood Abides in me, AND I IN HIM”

Hello Moondweller ---- Christ calling Md, thru Gospel of John the Beloved.

 

[brb2]

And other Johnine SS on topic of INFUSION.

John 14:17 “… you know him, for he dwells with you, and WILL BE IN YOU.”

John 14:23 " If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him and MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM."

John 15:4 " Abide in me, AND I IN YOU."

John 15:5 … “He who abides in me, AND I IN HIM, he it is that bears much fruit, for APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.”

John 15:11 “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be IN YOU, and that your joy may be full.”

---

John 15:16 “… so that WHATEVER you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”

So, Md … isn’t it time you asked the Father, thru the Son, … to INFUSE YOU ?

 

[CentralFLJames]

NONE of these, James, are examples of confessing sins for absolution. Your problem is you READ INTO texts your fully developed Catholic doctrines. That only works on other Catholics.I agree with the striving for holiness but not for the purpose of attaining (as a reward) eternal life:Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

1 Tim 1:16 “Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.”

*Job 38:2-3
"Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
…
Job 38:31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? "

Matthew 16:19 I will give you [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you **loose **on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

John 20:21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that He breathed on them [the apostles] and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”*

YOU say that none of these are examples of confessing sins for absolution but if you have ears that hear and eyes that see then hear and see oh man the plain text of the apostle’s:

Acts 19:18 : “Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.”

You would have it that these men confessed their evil deeds and sorcery for no other reason than to openly flagellate themselves with a self-sting of public shame only to bring attention to their guilt? Would you have it that these sinful men, now believers of The Way, openly acknowledged and renounce their sins only to impress their other sinful neighbors that they were not of “the old sinful way of sorcery and sin”? Was this simply fair social and business warning that they would no longer assemble and take company with such evil? Or was it also a repentance and a returning to God and goodly ways? What is different on ther day of public admission of guilt before God and man? Clearly, the physical presence of these Godly men of The Way were recognized by these new “believers” as God’s ambassadors; ambassadors who had the power from on high to invoke The Lord Jesus’ name to expel demons and therefor exorcise men’s sins (ref. Acts 19:13-16)? Men have no motive to confess sins except to seek mercy and to reconcile themselves before God and man, to seek to repent and “make amends”, gain forgiveness and acceptance. These men confessed their sins only because they recognized & respected the authority and power of the apostles to forgive sins and because they wished to reconcile themselves with God.

Would you have it that the apostle who wielded the authority and the power to absolve sin withheld absolution to deny them acceptance into The Way? For what gain to The Church would be had in this? Was the goal only to provoke shame and to publicly humiliate these sinners; bring them into financial ruin and social conflict with their prior colleagues? Is it too much to appeal to reason here and to the mission of the apostle to “go forth and make disciples of all nations”. You can not grant from reason that these sinners were absolved and accepted for Christ and His Church? Is this not also how Timothy was accepted? Was this not exactly what scripture tells us we must do to be purified from all unrighteousness?

*1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 Tim 6:12 Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.*

Brother Moondweller, you might do well to confess your true motives for being here. You have a closed agenda to hold to your own view with no intention of ever considering to listen to instruction or changing your beliefs and are here only to try to proselytize Catholics away from their faith.

James

 

[Tanner9188]

There is a beauty to this. Where did you come up with this overarching, idealized picture ?

centralfljames:

Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post

The second judgement is on “the world”. It does not change the judgement of those found worthy of heaven or those condemned to hell. It is for “completeness” to pass the “final word” on “it all”

Don’t be afraid of the 2nd judgement! … … the pinnacle of glory and deeper beatitude.

There is no second judgment for those in Christ Jesus as the Bible notes. The judgment, if you will, is strictly for rewards based on the deeds we accomplished in His name.

John 5:24 can be tossed away if you don’t believe the word of God.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Romans 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Judgment is for the unrepentant sinner; not the believer in the sense that you have used the term.

 

[CentralFLJames]

…But the exaggeration of their almost limitless abilities is over the top…
You see why the Reformers went back to the Scriptures?

I don’t want to go down a rabbit hole to detour away from current dialog to tarry on this minor topic. I respond only to clarify.

The details of the nature of the bodies of the resurrected bodies has no bearing on anyone’s salvation and this is why The Church does not place much emphasis on elaborating this area. The Church in its teachings only conveys instruction on what is considered “safe” teaching and things beneficial to our salvation and furthering our deepening in our relationship with God through our prayer and Christian lives. Not all Catholic teachings are dogmatic and some are expressed as “beliefs” held to be true and worthy of belief.

Devout Catholics tend to be very intellectual. The Church gives us the freedom to think for ourselves within the Apostolic framework and with mature Christian adult responsibility. You need to remember something – the bible reflects Catholic traditions and beliefs. We true Christians may contemplate God and His mysteries just as Peter did when He discerned that Jesus was Almighty God incarnate. We are after all rational creatures at God’s service and not simply obedient robots who can’t think for ourselves – yet we must yield to apostolic restraint in our thinking since we know that fallen human nature leaves all with damaged intellects to some degree and there is risk of private error. Thus the Church has set the framework of what is necessary core knowledge for our salvation and only elaborates in non-essential areas that are resonant with our sacred traditions and early church practices and which can deepen our appreciation for the Divine’s ways. But as you can see The Church has produced incredible intellects such as Aquinas, Augustine, Bonaventure etc. and from these gifted minds we have benefit of deeper theology and spirituality that is all consistent with both sacred scripture and sacred tradition. Divine Truth is safely locked within the Deposit of Faith – what has been given by Christ is “complete & is every good thing”.

But we have the promise of the Holy Spirit who will unlock from that same original Deposit of Faith deeper dimensions of that same One Truth as The Church is perfected; and so need from time to time deeper insights to grow in perfection. Dogmatic declarations are expositions of deeper truth by the Holy Spirit (often originally discerned by a saint who may or may not even be ordained) on that same original Deposit of Faith handed down to us.

God is perfect and perfection needs no refinement. But He expresses himself through many facets (and often in the manifest grace of His sanctified creatures) in endless glimmers of revelation. This is how we know for certain that there can be no boredom in an eternal heavenly beatitude! It will never be boring to contemplate and commune forever with the One Truth of The Triune God. If heaven is to be manifest on earth and The Church is the start of God’s Kingdom then it follows that the Divine Pattern of endless exposition of The One Truth (revelation) must also extend to The Church on earth as the Kingdom takes shape. Each member of the Body of Christ is part of that witness to Truth. The laity of the Church Universal are vibrant and valued members of The One Truth. If you look at Church History you will see that our ecclesial structure has highly esteemed the saints (not always priests and bishops but also religious men and women) as we are all consecrated into Christ by baptism.

God has given each member of His Church a purpose – many facets of the same truth all within one unified Divine framework that is self consistent and incorruptible as the relational structure of the Trinity. But this is not universalism of denomination! No! This is Catholicism; one faith, one people, one Holy Nation reflecting the single One Light of God. God’s people are the twinkle in God’s eye and the object of His desire.
To close this out:

CCC 997 What is “rising”? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus’ Resurrection.

St. Thomas also projects his non-binding expectation of what a glorified body means:
St. Thomas – the four primary traits of he resurrected body:

*St. Thomas, identifies four primary traits of the resurrected body: **impassibility, agility, subtlety, and clarity. ***
The problem of suffering and death will no longer exist after the Day of Christ’s coming. Death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more (Rev. 21:4). The bodies of the just will be no longer capable of physical pain or corruption of any kind. This is what the term impassibility refers to, from the Latin im-passio, meaning “without-suffering”.
Agility is the free and swift movement of the glorified body. The experience we often have now of the body weighing down and hindering the soul will no longer be the case. In the blessed, the soul will be completely in charge. Wherever the soul wishes to go, it will go instantaneously, with the quickness of thought.
Thus, the material make-up of the resurrected body will no longer be the physical flesh and blood we now have. St. Paul calls it a spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:44). As a result, there will be a remarkable ability of the glorified body to pass through other bodies without difficulty. This is called subtlety. As the Gospels described Jesus passing through the walls of the Upper Room after His resurrection, so it will be for the resurrected saints.
Light is one of the special qualities emanating from God. All those who become sharers in divine life emanate this very same light of God. Our Lord speaks of the time when the just will shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Jesus himself, as a preview of the light that he would one day impart to the redeemed made His body shine on Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration with a brightness that astounded the apostles. This is the clarity, or brilliance, that will be seen in the glorified body. The soul, filled with the Divine Presence, will overflow with God-like radiance, turning the body into a thing of spectacular beauty and brightness.
The bodies of the blessed will be radiant with divine light, but those of the condemned will manifest the twisted and dark soul that is within (See St. Thomas Summa Theologica Supplementum Questions 75, 2 & 3 newadvent.org/summa/5.htm). Whatever the state of the soul is, that the body will reveal.

QED:
St. Thomas agrees with what I said. Let’s move on.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

There is no second judgment for those in Christ Jesus as the Bible notes. The judgment, if you will, is strictly for rewards based on the deeds we accomplished in His name.

John 5:24 can be tossed away if you don’t believe the word of God.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Romans 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Judgment is for the unrepentant sinner; not the believer in the sense that you have used the term.

I appreciate your zeal for God’s word and say here that we are not in disagreement brother. The 2nd Judgement is misinterpreted by some. I think it’s safe to say that it’s less a judgement than it is a revelation of “all things”. God told us He will bring all things good and evil to light. But that does mean everyone good and evil will know everyone’s sins and their good deeds. NOTHING will be left uncovered.

The 2nd judgement as we title it is a revelation of all the good and bad that has ever existed in the world and an exhibition on how each good deed ran its course through all time and how evil conspired against good. It will show the greater good and how it triumphed and how each person’s sins and good deeds effected every other creature on the planet for good or evil. It is to convey divine knowledge of deep mysteries which will bring great joy and higher glory to the saints/elect and deeper woes/envy/punishment to the damned who must suffer to bear the full knowledge of what they lost for all eternity and is forever irredeemable to them.

It is also God reflecting on His works and coming to the final word on everything He has done in manifesting Creation. I expect that the final word to mirror what happened in Genesis when God judged His own works. I expect to hear God say “…and it was Good” and for the new Creation to come out of that Final Word and the Divine Celebration is consummated as evil is forever banished to “its own place” never to be seen or heard from again.

James

 

[moondweller]

YOU say that none of these are examples of confessing sins for absolution but if you have ears that hear and eyes that see then hear and see oh man the plain text of the apostle’s:

Acts 19:18 : “Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.”

They’re not James, and you know it. Acts 19:18 is about new believers in the city of Ephesus publicly acknowledging the dark practices they’d been into, even those who had practiced magic burned their books publicly. It was an outward confession of their new belief in Christ and their deliverance from their dark practices through Him.

As a new believer I’d often confessed publicly to the life I lived in spiritual darkness and testified to the change that came about after personal belief in Christ - to His glory. Such public confession is not for absolution of sins but to give glory to Christ.

As I said previously, James, nowhere do you find men lining up before the Apostles to confess their sins and the Apostles responding with “Your sins are absolved.” But rather the gospel of forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ was PROCLAIMED publicly by them:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

 

[Tanner9188]

I appreciate your zeal for God’s word and say here that we are not in disagreement brother. The 2nd Judgement is misinterpreted by some. I think it’s safe to say that it’s less a judgement than it is a revelation of “all things”. God told us He will bring all things good and evil to light. But that does mean everyone good and evil will know everyone’s sins and their good deeds. NOTHING will be left uncovered.

The 2nd judgement as we title it is a revelation of all the good and bad that has ever existed in the world and an exhibition on how each good deed ran its course through all time and how evil conspired against good. It will show the greater good and how it triumphed and how each person’s sins and good deeds effected every other creature on the planet for good or evil. It is to convey divine knowledge of deep mysteries which will bring great joy and higher glory to the saints/elect and deeper woes/envy/punishment to the damned who must suffer to bear the full knowledge of what they lost for all eternity and is forever irredeemable to them.

It is also God reflecting on His works and coming to the final word on everything He has done in manifesting Creation. I expect that the final word to mirror what happened in Genesis when God judged His own works. I expect to hear God say “…and it was Good” and for the new Creation to come out of that Final Word and the Divine Celebration is consummated as evil is forever banished to “its own place” never to be seen or heard from again.

James

Is this code for purgatory; because not much of what you just espoused can be found in Scripture, but is taught in Catholic theology. I hope for your sake and the others they don’t find themselves in a place called purgatory; you will eventually find out is not as you thought and were taught. By then, it will be too late.

Anyway; I just really wanted to stop in and see what moondweller was up to and noticed this 2nd judgment thing and couldn’t let it go, since it was not in a Biblical context.

God bless Central and hope you are doing well; hello moondweller and God bless you to.

Tanner

 

[QuickCat]

Seems to me that all of you ignore the fact that our Lord Jesus Christ came only to Israel during His earthly ministry. The Jews were still “under the Law” at this time - Note Galatians 4:4,5; Romans 15:8; Matthew 15:24. Biblical revelation is progressive. The 12 apostles did not know about our Lord’s death, burial and resurrection [see Luke 18:31-34; John 20:9] during the 4 gospel accounts of our Lord’s earthly ministry. We must come to Paul to understand the full meaning of the cross. The gospel of the grace of God was what Paul called “my gospel” three times. It was that Christ died to pay the sin debt, He was buried and rose again for our justification. The sin debt was paid in full. Every believer in this dispensation of the grace of God [Ephesians 3:3] has stamped on his soul, “PAID IN FULL.”
See Colossians 2:13 - “…having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.” God the Holy spirit seals every believer the moment he/she believes the gospel by which you are saved. Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. God said it, I believe it, that settles it! It is not an intellectual exercise. It is an exercise of faith - believe the gospel and rest in Him.

 

[CentralFLJames]

They’re not James, and you know it. Acts 19:18 is about new believers in the city of Ephesus publicly acknowledging the dark practices they’d been into, even those who had practiced magic burned their books publicly. It was an outward confession of their new belief in Christ and their deliverance from their dark practices through Him.
…

You call it it “giving glory to God” we call it repentance. I have no objection to this interpretation as long as that giving Glory also means “getting right with God” through sincere repentance, confession of sins and forgiveness of sins as essential to one being in a “right relationship” with God and therefor necessary for salvation.

Since there are no words here in scripture that explicitly say “you are absolved” nor are there words that say “you are not absolved” nor are there words that say “these confessed to give glory to God” then we are left with no literal accounts for “why” these confessed. For those outside of our apostolic Catholic faith one must make a conjecture.

We can’t resolve any of this here from scripture alone to your personal satisfaction. But we do know from handed down tradtion/ECF writings that baptism was the principal means of forgivness of sins. But a person falling into grave post-baptismal sin was usually given an opportunity for a “second” chance after public confession through apostolic absolution along with an accompanying strict penance (often 1 or many years of fasting, praying) before they would be received back into full communion with the Church to partake of the celebration of the Eucharist (the body & blood of Christ).

I give some patristics below. But I want to first communicate something else here. The apostolic authority of loosing and binding sins is contingent on the judgement and criteria of the individual apostle (a spiritual rank of bishop). Before The Catholic Church normalized the critera through cannon law bishops of the Early Church were free to use their own personal criteria/policy necessary for forgivness. In the early church criteria were very severe. Most early Christians might only get a single life opportunity to repent again and be forgiven of post-baptismal sins. Early Christians were EXTREMELY pious and devout and would rather die for their faith than sin in God’s sight. None wanted have to confess new sins and face the public shame of doing long penance before their brothers.

The Church the apostles and their successors would permit public open confessions from the assembly at large and would forgive them by extending their hands over their heads and absolve them by prayer and evoking Jesus’ name. Laying on of hands was a sign of forgiveness - a sign the Catholic Church still does to this day (for those who confess face to face rather than behind the curtain (where the apostolic priest still raises his hands while invoking Christ’s name to grant absolution). My own read of scripture, admittedly speculative, suggests that for logistics and travels St. Paul may have granted absolution in absentia through trusted mediators he gave strict guidelines for absolution (I must assume ordained ones). He seems to have routinely prayed in abstenta for those entrusted to his flock (diocese) - possibly invoking the apostolic absolution at distance.
John 20:23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[ed: the apostles are given the divine authority to forgive sins in Jesus’ name and they are at liberty to judge and set their own standard for who is worthy of forgiveness. The Catholic Church in modern times imposes only one criteria - being baptised {normatively of the Catholic faith – unless by special exception/permission} and being repentant and being sincere in desire to fully return to God]

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[ed: adult baptism performed after repentance is efficacious in forgiving ALL sin - baptism is an extremely powerful sacrament!]

2 Cor 2:10 If you forgive anyone,** I also forgive him**. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

[ed: Paul is an apostolic authority and personally has the spiritual authority to loose sins in the name of Jesus and does so here by a forgiveness-convention he has has he authority to establish and has entrusted by pre-approval]

James 5:14-16 Is any one of you sick? He should **call the elders of the church **to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

[note: this is apostolic absolution that is tied to the anointing of the sick - aka Last Rites]
Patristics:*
Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience." Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life…On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

“Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.” Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to** forgive sins**…" Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).
More Patristics here: Scripture Catholic: ECF - Oral Confession

Bottom Line:
The early Church most definitely did not believe in a “by faith alone absolution” except in the sacrament of baptism. Apostolic absolution was available for those who fell from initial conversion grace - but it was rare for any one individual since these were held to high expectations of avoiding sin.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Is this code for purgatory; because not much of what you just espoused can be found in Scripture, but is taught in Catholic theology. I hope for your sake and the others they don’t find themselves in a place called purgatory; you will eventually find out is not as you thought and were taught. By then, it will be too late.

Anyway; I just really wanted to stop in and see what moondweller was up to and noticed this 2nd judgment thing and couldn’t let it go, since it was not in a Biblical context.

God bless Central and hope you are doing well; hello moondweller and God bless you to.

Tanner

No, this is the 2nd comming - when the 2nd judgement takes place. Those few still alive at this time (which are few due to the climax of the tribulation) are all instantly consumed by God and these remaining souls are given their personal judgement - the wicked to hell and the elect to heaven. Time ends and all are now in Eternity - in heaven or hell. The souls in purgatory are released to heaven and purgatory is abolished - closed forever. Creation is “over”. All souls in heaven and hell are given their resurrected bodies and are assembled before The Lord. A final judgement on “it all” is given and each soul will see how it effected every other soul ever created. All sins and good things are made known to all (through supernatural means since the human mind can not fathom it otherwise). Then “it is finished” and the wicked are sent to hell for all time and hell is closed. The elect are received into eternal glory. And God does something new - a new Creation and things too wonderful for us to yet know. There is no more evil and God’s Kingdom reigns forever.

The End and The Beginning.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Seems to me that all of you ignore the fact that our Lord Jesus Christ came only to Israel during His earthly ministry. The Jews were still “under the Law” at this time - Note Galatians 4:4,5; Romans 15:8; Matthew 15:24. Biblical revelation is progressive. The 12 apostles did not know about our Lord’s death, burial and resurrection [see Luke 18:31-34; John 20:9] during the 4 gospel accounts of our Lord’s earthly ministry. We must come to Paul to understand the full meaning of the cross. The gospel of the grace of God was what Paul called “my gospel” three times. It was that Christ died to pay the sin debt, He was buried and rose again for our justification. The sin debt was paid in full. Every believer in this dispensation of the grace of God [Ephesians 3:3] has stamped on his soul, “PAID IN FULL.”
See Colossians 2:13 - “…having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.” God the Holy spirit seals every believer the moment he/she believes the gospel by which you are saved. Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. God said it, I believe it, that settles it! It is not an intellectual exercise. It is an exercise of faith - believe the gospel and rest in Him.

All seems to be true as you have stated it QCat. But I suspect we differ in the details of how one “abides in Christ”. We are all under the new covenant of Jesus Christ - a covenant of Grace entered into by the seed of faith that sealed by baptism (which marks the soul as “Christian”, reconfigures it for the Holy Spirit and invited the HS into residence). But Catholics know that to abide in that covenant and to cooperate with our sanctification we have an obligation to avoid sin and to be receptive to grace’s supernatural works through our new creation in Christ. We do not have license to sin - in fact we are called to be holy as our heavenly father is holy. Thank God that He has given us The Church and her sacraments (in particular the sacraments of reconciliation and eucharist) to in the first case heal us when we fall into grave sin, repent/confess and get absolved and in the second case receive the joy and graces of God’s Eucharistic offering “so we may have life in us and not die”.

James

 

[moondweller]

Is this code for purgatory; because not much of what you just espoused can be found in Scripture, but is taught in Catholic theology. I hope for your sake and the others they don’t find themselves in a place called purgatory; you will eventually find out is not as you thought and were taught. By then, it will be too late.

Anyway; I just really wanted to stop in and see what moondweller was up to and noticed this 2nd judgment thing and couldn’t let it go, since it was not in a Biblical context.

God bless Central and hope you are doing well; hello moondweller and God bless you to.

Tanner

Thanks Tanner. Thought you’d appreciate this tid-bit of info.:

Catholicism teaches two future judgments:

(1) Particular Judgment: According to Catholicism this judgment is suppose to occur the moment of death. In this judgment each person must face God and if God determines that the individual before Him has died in the “state of grace,” first received (infused) at the time of baptism, that person obtains the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ:

“To those who work well right to the end and keep their trust in God, eternal life should be held out, both as a grace promised in his mercy through Jesus Christ to the children of God, and as a reward to be faithfully bestowed, on the promise of God himself, for their good works and merits” (Council of Trent, session 6, “Decree on Justification,” canon 32).

(2) Universal or General Judgment: Catholicism teaches that merited reward also results in an increase of the degree of glory that an individual who died in a “state of grace” will enjoy in heaven. This general judgment doesn’t take place until the end of the world, at the second advent of Christ (their “proof text” is Matt. 25:31ff). At that time ALL the dead rise with immortal bodies (although that’s not the scene described in Matt. 25:31ff). It’s a second (but very public) evaluation (proclamation) of the results of the “particular judgment” and determines the Catholic’s total, eternal reward. And because it occurs at the end of the world it is taught that this judgment will display the effects of each person’s life on society and history and which has a direct bearing on their final reward, or status in heaven or hell. If this resurrected one died in a “state of grace” his reward, the degree of his glory in heaven, will be in direct proportion to his good works and how they effected society during his lifetime. Similarly, if the resurrected individual died without sanctifying grace in his soul (never had it or lost it along the way), how his wickedness effected society will determine his degree of punishment in hell; and according to the “spiritual discernment” of one “mature” Catholic, how grotesque he’ll look.​

 

[moondweller]

Seems to me that all of you ignore the fact that our Lord Jesus Christ came only to Israel during His earthly ministry. The Jews were still “under the Law” at this time - Note Galatians 4:4,5; Romans 15:8; Matthew 15:24. Biblical revelation is progressive. The 12 apostles did not know about our Lord’s death, burial and resurrection [see Luke 18:31-34; John 20:9] during the 4 gospel accounts of our Lord’s earthly ministry. We must come to Paul to understand the full meaning of the cross. The gospel of the grace of God was what Paul called “my gospel” three times. It was that Christ died to pay the sin debt, He was buried and rose again for our justification. The sin debt was paid in full. Every believer in this dispensation of the grace of God [Ephesians 3:3] has stamped on his soul, “PAID IN FULL.”
See Colossians 2:13 - “…having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.” God the Holy spirit seals every believer the moment he/she believes the gospel by which you are saved. Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. God said it, I believe it, that settles it! It is not an intellectual exercise. It is an exercise of faith - believe the gospel and rest in Him.

I covered this here

 

[moondweller]

You call it it “giving glory to God” we call it repentance. I have no objection to this interpretation as long as that giving Glory also means “getting right with God” through sincere repentance, confession of sins and forgiveness of sins as essential to one being in a “right relationship” with God and therefor necessary for salvation.

Their right relationship with God occurred at the time of belief in Christ. It’s their belief in Christ through Paul’s preaching the gospel to them that caused their salvation. It was their regeneration (made spiritually alive) by the Spirit that caused those Ephesian believers to publicly denounce their old practices (Eph. 2:5; read 2:1-10; also Col. 2:13).

Since there are no words here in scripture that explicitly say “you are absolved” nor are there words that say “you are not absolved” nor are there words that say “these confessed to give glory to God” then we are left with no literal accounts for “why” these confessed. For those outside of our apostolic Catholic faith one must make a conjecture.

No, no conjecture is needed. It’s easy to see that their publicly acknowledging old practices is in conjunction with their being born again by the Holy Spirit at the time of their belief in Christ. Just as Paul writes:2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."They acted according to their new identity in Christ.

Patristics:*
Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience." Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).

“In church confess your sins,* and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life…On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

“Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.” Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).None of these actually speak of confessing sins for divine absolution in regards to one’s salvation (soteriological absolution).

Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant

whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to** forgive sins**…" Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).The further away you get from the Apostolic age you see gradual theological changes. That’s why one must always go back to the theopneustos Scriptures for the ORIGINAL Apostolic teachings on sin, faith, salvation and eternal life.

And what I often see is Catholics reading their time developed doctrines into the the very early Patristic writings. Nevertheless, those writing are not theopneustos and hold no authority. We can learn something about what they may or may not have believed, but doctrine is to be developed from divine revelation only. It’s what separates and distinguishes true Christianity from all other religions on earth with their man-made doctrines.

 

[Tanner9188]

Thanks Tanner. Thought you’d appreciate this tid-bit of info.:

Catholicism teaches two future judgments:

(1) Particular Judgment: According to Catholicism this judgment is suppose to occur the moment of death. In this judgment each person must face God and if God determines that the individual before Him has died in the “state of grace,” first received (infused) at the time of baptism, that person obtains the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ:

“To those who work well right to the end and keep their trust in God, eternal life should be held out, both as a grace promised in his mercy through Jesus Christ to the children of God, and as a reward to be faithfully bestowed, on the promise of God himself, for their good works and merits” (Council of Trent, session 6, “Decree on Justification,” canon 32).

(2) Universal or General Judgment: Catholicism teaches that merited reward also results in an increase of the degree of glory that an individual who died in a “state of grace” will enjoy in heaven. This general judgment doesn’t take place until the end of the world, at the second advent of Christ (their “proof text” is Matt. 25:31ff). At that time ALL the dead rise with immortal bodies (although that’s not the scene described in Matt. 25:31ff). It’s a second (but very public) evaluation (proclamation) of the results of the “particular judgment” and determines the Catholic’s total, eternal reward. And because it occurs at the end of the world it is taught that this judgment will display the effects of each person’s life on society and history and which has a direct bearing on their final reward, or status in heaven or hell. If this resurrected one died in a “state of grace” his reward, the degree of his glory in heaven, will be in direct proportion to his good works and how they effected society during his lifetime. Similarly, if the resurrected individual died without sanctifying grace in his soul (never had it or lost it along the way), how his wickedness effected society will determine his degree of punishment in hell; and according to the “spiritual discernment” of one “mature” Catholic, how grotesque he’ll look.
​

Send me a PM with the link to this; I would like to look more into that for future reference…thanks.

I actually like the part where we get to see how our sin affected or influenced each individual on down the line or vice verse how our good deeds influenced. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t recall any Scripture to support that.​

 

[brb2]

I’ve read many times the Gospel of John and have memorized large portions of it. I’ve yet to find the idea there of anything being “infused” into the soul.

.

Tanner …

You came back just in time. Md needs your help on understanding the Gospel of John. Seems he’s never read in scipture about the ‘Indwelling of Holy Spirit’ … yet he claims to be bac [born again christian].

Can you help him with Gospel of John … on infusion / indwelling of H.S. ?

 

[SteveGC]

moondweller:

Their right relationship with God occurred at the time of belief in Christ

Curious, md…

under this theology of “just believe”, when you catechize a seeking soul toward what you would call “true belief”…what sort of guidance do you offer a person in terms of moving from unbelief and being eternally lost…to the moment of belief and assured eternal life in heaven?

IOW, say I am a seeker. I trust in md’s teaching of Christianity. You preach to me that I can gain (through my true belief in Christ) eternal life in heaven, and that that eternal destiny for me happens instantaneously upon the moment of my belief.

I say “wow…ok…I want that”. So now what? What’s your practical application of that theology for the unbeliever who now desires what you preach? When would I go from unbelief into belief…and how would I know how much belief is sufficient for God to declare me righteous, a new creation, and assuredly bound for heaven?

thanks…