How does Marian devotion save?

[PRmerger]

So then all your interpretations are PRIVATE.

I’m pretty sure your post above means you didn’t read the post the first time, nor did you read it the second time.

Remember what Scripture says, moon: Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.

If you’re not reading the material that’s presented to you then you ought not be posing questions.

But to answer your question: the CC has preserved the Teaching of the Apostles. When your private interpretation, and my private interpretation, diverges from that which has been revealed, then it departs from the Truth.

 

[moondweller]

No, it wasn’t ‘that lady’. ‘That lady’ has no such power.

“Tell them that in October I will give a sign so great that all will be forced to believe in me.”

If it happened (which we’re not required to believe) then God did it,

Not according to that lady.

and no-one who believes in the apparition believes otherwise. Really.

Then they don’t believe in the lady. The alleged miracle was to force everyone to believe in her.

The same GOD who caused the flood, raised Lazarus from the dead and indeed brought both sun and earth into existence. Are you doubting that HE could do so if He chose? Really?

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

He in fact did so in the past. Really. He made the sun go backwards in it course for Isaiah and king Hezekiah.

He also made it stand still. That’s how it looked to men but it was probably the earth’s rotation that was affected.

As you rightly point out, ONE record, if it’s from a truthful source, is enough. Do you think scripture is the ONLY record of truth?

Of course not. But let me ask you again. If the sun left the sky would not the whole world in 1917 know it? If it was shrunk down to the size of a golf ball and was made to move amongst 70,000 people wouldn’t the whole world know it? Would they at least not wonder why it’s so dark and why it’s so extremely COLD?

Do YOU have any records of anyone who was at Fatima on that day and saw and heard nothing? No? Then at least consider that it MIGHT be true. Which is all the Church asks us to do.

The phenomena that was suppose to have happened, Lily, would have effected THE WHOLE WORLD!!! In fact our whole solar system.

Didn’t stop the Sumerians - descended from those survivors, obviously - having a cultural memory of the flood and recording it in their stories of their hero Gilgamesh. Some other cultures have done so too - the myth of the drowned continent of Atlantis and the like.

Every culture has a story about a great flood. Even the native Americans. But attached to them are myths. The fact that they have retained such a story is considered evidence of the actual flood. But the only true account is preserved for us in theopneustos (God-breathed) Scripture.

So those Sumerian and other records AREN’T trustworthy?

Have you read them? Have you compared them to what is recorded in *God-breathed *Scripture?

Even though they too describe an event that actually happened?

They describe a similar event but not exactly how it’s recorded in SCRIPTURE. The ONLY true account of that Deluge is preserved in THEOPNEUSTOS Scripture.

 

[moondweller]

But to answer your question: the CC has preserved the Teaching of the Apostles. When your private interpretation, and my private interpretation, diverges from that which has been revealed, then it departs from the Truth.

Nonetheless, when you or any Catholic give me an interpretation of a Scripture passage it’s YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. Unless, of course, you’re quoting one of your Magisterium. I haven’t seen one of those quotes yet.

 

[PRmerger]

Nonetheless, when you or any Catholic give me an interpretation of a Scripture passage it’s YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. Unless, of course, you’re quoting one of your Magisterium. I haven’t seen one of those quotes yet.

Nope.

It’s not my private interpretation that Baptism saves. It’s Catholic doctrine.

It’s not my private interpretation that God created us in his image and therefore abortion is immoral.

As I cited in the article:* Instead, it defines doctrine, and that definition may eliminate some interpretations of particular verses.*

Where your private interpretations diverge from the Teachings of the Apostles is where your private interpretation should be eliminated.

 

[PRmerger]

“Tell them that in October I will give a sign so great that all will be forced to believe in me.”

Yes, just like Moses parted the Red Sea.

But only through the hand of God, yes?

The alleged miracle was to force everyone to believe in her.

When Israel saw the great power which the LORD had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD **and in His servant Moses. ** Exodus 14:31

So it’s not either/or. It’s both/and (like most Catholic things).

The miracle was to induce everyone to believe in the Lord and in His servant, Mary.

 

[LilyM]

"Tell them that in October I will give a sign so great that all will be forced to believe in me."Not according to that lady.Then they don’t believe in the lady. The alleged miracle was to force everyone to believe in her.

What does this have to do, as you so eloquently put it, with the price of tea in China? Did Our Lord Himself not talk about ‘the sign of Jonah’ rather than specifying ‘the sign God did by and for Jonah, but that Jonah didn’t do himself’??? It’s shorthand. Just like talking about Peter and Paul’s miracles. Or, as PR put it, saying that people believed IN MOSES as well as in THE GOD OF Moses.

He also made it stand still. That’s how it looked to men but it was probably the earth’s rotation that was affected.Of course not. But let me ask you again. If the sun left the sky would not the whole world in 1917 know it? If it was shrunk down to the size of a golf ball and was made to move amongst 70,000 people wouldn’t the whole world know it? Would they at least not wonder why it’s so dark and why it’s so extremely COLD?The phenomena that was suppose to have happened, Lily, would have effected THE WHOLE WORLD!!! In fact our whole solar system

You’re saying that because people who were, say, on the other side of the world from Fatima didn’t record the fact that something happened on that day that it disproves a miraculous event. I say rubbish.

How many people who were thousands of miles from the Promised Land recorded the facts that the sun stood still on one occasion and went backwards in its course on another, at times corresponding with Scriptural accounts? None.

Mind you, if the earth stood still, in the natural course of things gravity would no longer operate, so everyone would float right off. Of COURSE you’d think they’d notice and record THAT - but even scripture doesn’t say so. Because THAT didn’t happen - God broke one of the laws of physics, but kept others (like the law of gravity) operational. He’s not bound to produce a sign in the fashion, and following the criteria, that YOU demand for it.

Does any of this mean these events didn’t happen? Absolutely not. As the saying goes, if a tree falls down in the forest it falls, even if NO-ONE sees it fall. If 70,000 people are there to see the fall, why do you care that people who WEREN’T present didn’t see or notice it? Is God bound to give signs that are noticed by the whole world? He’s never (apart perhaps from the flood) done so in the past, but instead given them in certain times and places only.

Some phenomena to do with the Sun and Moon are localised anyway. Eclipses aren’t seen in EVERY part of the world all at once, you’ve got to be in the right spot on the earth to see them. For starters, to see a solar eclipse you’ve got to be in a place where it’s actually daytime so the sun is visible, and a place where it’s nighttime and the moon is visible for a lunar eclipse.

Every culture has a story about a great flood. Even the native Americans.

Actually, no, not every culture, although plenty do. To my knowledge there’s no myth of a worldwide flood in Ancient Egyptian mythology, for example. Or in Japanese culture. Or Eskimo mythology.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

If the sun left the sky would not the whole world in 1917 know it? If it was shrunk down to the size of a golf ball and was made to move amongst 70,000 people wouldn’t the whole world know it? Would they at least not wonder why it’s so dark and why it’s so extremely COLD?

The answer to your questions is that the Miracle of the Sun was a localized vision. So was the stoppage of the sun seen by the Israelite army. I agree with you that if the sun really did approach the earth or if the earth stopped rotating some kind of global catastrophe would occur. Visions happen all the time in scripture but usually affect one person or a small number of people. What makes these two visions unusual is that they happened to large numbers of people simultaneously. Psychiatrists have described the Fatima event as a “mass hallucination”. It was in fact a “mass vision”. People can call it a hallucination if they want to, but unless they appeal to divine intervention they cannot explain how 70,000 Catholics, atheists, skeptics and others from all walks of life saw the sun move around in the sky.

 

[Pitcharan]

… People can call it a hallucination if they want to, but unless they appeal to divine intervention they cannot explain how 70,000 Catholics, atheists, skeptics and others from all walks of life saw the sun move around in the sky.

There are some who will not believe even if their own were to rise from the dead and testify.

Blessed are they who have not seen and yet believed.

 

[moondweller]

The answer to your questions is that the Miracle of the Sun was a localized vision.

The account doesn’t call it a “vision.” It’s called a “miracle” in the account. She said she would perform a “miracle.” Visions are not miracles.

So was the stoppage of the sun seen by the Israelite army. I agree with you that if the sun really did approach the earth or if the earth stopped rotating some kind of global catastrophe would occur.

If the sun left the sky it would affect the whole solar system and being that close to the earth the earth and all life on it would burn to a crisp in a instant. I don’t think the earth temporarily stopping on its axis would cause a global catastrophe. It would only effect time. I don’t believe gravity is based on the earth’s rotation.

It was in fact a “mass vision”.

Again, it wasn’t a “vision.” She said she would perform a miracle so that all would be forced to believe in her. She didn’t say so that all would believe in Jesus, she said believe in HER.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t think the earth temporarily stopping on its axis would cause a global catastrophe. It would only effect time. I don’t believe gravity is based on the earth’s rotation.

OK, it wouldn’t affect gravity. But it would certainly have tremendous impact:

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080820201359AAV3jrZ

“If it stopped quickly enough the Earth would be torn completely apart by the tremendous deceleration forces.”

And that’s just the stopping. The effects of it going BACKWARD would be even worse.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

The account doesn’t call it a “vision.” It’s called a “miracle” in the account. She said she would perform a “miracle.” Visions are not miracles.If the sun left the sky it would affect the whole solar system and being that close to the earth the earth and all life on it would burn to a crisp in a instant. I don’t think the earth temporarily stopping on its axis would cause a global catastrophe./QUOTE]

A miracle is something inexplicable according the laws of nature that is therefore attributed to God. I’m pretty sure a divine vision is outside the laws of nature and therefore counts as a miracle. I agree with you about the crispy earth part, it is the basis of my vision theory. The earth stoppage is a very interesting question. The earth rotates at about 1000 mph. If God stopped the earth suddenly, it would be like hitting a wall in a car going 1000 mph. Not good. If He did it slowly, like say over one hour, everything would be OK unless something unforeseen happened like huge changes to weather patterns or some kind of weird core instability. The real problem would involve halting the earth’s rotation around the sun. This would be necessary to stabilize the sun’s position relative to the earth. The earth’s velocity is 67,0000 mph. There is no way we could survive such deceleration in one day (this is the duration implied in the Book of Joshua). I really think it has to be a vision.

 

[moondweller]

Yes, just like Moses parted the Red Sea.

Moses never attributed a miracle to himself as she did.

When Israel saw the great power which the LORD had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD **and in His servant Moses. ** Exodus 14:31

That lady said nothing about believing in the Lord. She said she would perform the miracle to force people to believe in HER.

The miracle was to induce everyone to believe in the Lord and in His servant, Mary.

That’s not what she said. Nor does she ever actually identify herself as Mary.

 

[LilyM]

Moses never attributed a miracle to himself as she did.That lady said nothing about believing in the Lord. She said she would perform the miracle to force people to believe in HER.That’s not what she said. Nor does she ever actually identify herself as Mary.

Ai yi yi.

Paul several times in scripture spoke of HIS, Paul’s, saving people, or HIS, Paul’s, doing this or that or the other work. At none of those times does he go on to add ‘but when I say I save/lead/teach/whatever, I really mean God saves/leads/teaches/does whatever through me’.

It’s enough that he says even once that everything he does is actually done by Christ through him. Intelligent people get the point without it being spelled out each and every time Paul uses the word ‘I’.

Same with Mary - it’s enough that in the Gospels she speaks of herself as God’s handmaid, and of God working marvels for her and praising Him for doing so. Those who read this do, or should, KNOW by this what Mary’s attitude is, without her having to spell it out each and every time she talks to someone.

Wouldn’t you find it tiresome to have to correct yourself each and every time you use the word ‘I’, and if someone demanded that WHENEVER you spoke of yourself you must specify each and every single time that nothing you have or do is your own, but happens through or belongs to God? But isn’t it the truth nonetheless? Don’t you expect people who know you to understand that you DO attribute all your deeds to God and give Him the glory for everything you have, without you saying so EVERY … SINGLE … TIME!!!

 

[moondweller]

A miracle is something inexplicable according the laws of nature that is therefore attributed to God. I’m pretty sure a divine vision is outside the laws of nature and therefore counts as a miracle.

(1) She does not say she will provide a “vision.” She says she will perform a “miracle.” (2) Visions do not affect the laws of nature. (3) She does not attribute the supposed miracle to God but to herself.

Your insistence that it was a vision is a revision of the account. It’s not right that you change it to suit your belief comfort.

The earth stoppage is a very interesting question. The earth rotates at about 1000 mph. If God stopped the earth suddenly, it would be like hitting a wall in a car going 1000 mph. Not good. If He did it slowly, like say over one hour, everything would be OK unless something unforeseen happened like huge changes to weather patterns or some kind of weird core instability. The real problem would involve halting the earth’s rotation around the sun. This would be necessary to stabilize the sun’s position relative to the earth. The earth’s velocity is 67,0000 mph. There is no way we could survive such deceleration in one day (this is the duration implied in the Book of Joshua). I really think it has to be a vision.

It was not recorded as a vision but an actual, physical event. Your insistence that it was a vision is a revision of the account.

 

[moondweller]

Ai yi yi.

Paul several times in scripture spoke of HIS, Paul’s, saving people, or HIS, Paul’s, doing this or that or the other work. At none of those times does he go on to add ‘but when I say I save/lead/teach/whatever, I really mean God saves/leads/teaches/does whatever through me’.

It’s enough that he says even once that everything he does is actually done by Christ through him. Intelligent people get the point without it being spelled out each and every time Paul uses the word ‘I’.

Same with Mary - it’s enough that in the Gospels she speaks of herself as God’s handmaid, and of God working marvels for her and praising Him for doing so. Those who read this do, or should, KNOW by this what Mary’s attitude is, without her having to spell it out each and every time she talks to someone.

Wouldn’t you find it tiresome to have to correct yourself each and every time you use the word ‘I’, and if someone demanded that WHENEVER you spoke of yourself you must specify each and every single time that nothing you have or do is your own, but happens through or belongs to God? But isn’t it the truth nonetheless? Don’t you expect people who know you to understand that you DO attribute all your deeds to God and give Him the glory for everything you have, without you saying so EVERY … SINGLE … TIME!!!

You’re rationalizing and you’re putting words in that lady’s mouth. She said “I will perform a miracle.” And the purpose of the miracle was to force everyone to believe in her. Show me where Paul ever made an equivalent statement. Where did Paul ever state that the miracles performed through him were for the purpose that all would be forced to believe in him?

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

(1) She does not say she will provide a “vision.” She says she will perform a “miracle.” (2) Visions do not effect the laws of nature. (3) She does not attribute the supposed miracle to God but to herself.

Your insistence that it was a vision is a revision of the account. It’s not right that you change it to suit your belief comfort.It was not recorded as a vision but an actual, physical event. Your insistence that it was a vision is a revision of the account.

1. If a vision is a miracle, as I demonstrated previously, Mary is truthful in saying there will be a miracle.
2. If it is impossible to stop the earth without killing all life, there are only two possible interpretations (a) God caused the combatants to see a vision of the sun stopping that was so realistic it looked like a physical event (b) the story is allegorical rather than historical.
3. I don’t see how you can attack Fatima for being physically impossible yet defend the physical impossibility of an earth stoppage.

 

[panevino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller
The Scriptures themselves testify to His divinity. To brand Mary a perpetual virgin states nothing concerning the divinity of Christ. Can you think of any practical purpose for keeping her a virgin perpetually?

Honour to God the Father

Her remaining a virgin magnifies his divinity
By the /honour to the true Father of Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Show me where Paul ever made an equivalent statement. Where did Paul ever state that the miracles performed through him were for the purpose that all would be forced to believe in him?

I’ll do one better.

I’ll show where YOU give credit to MOSES, and not God.

Heck, even you understand that when someone, who’s a true servant of God, does His Will, what’s attributed to this person is really only a shorthand way of saying, “Because God gave him/her the authority/power/means to do this”

Again, even you get this.

 

[crazzeto]

Can we be sure she meant by her appearance dressed as Our Lady of Carmel and holding the Scapular, that she wanted the Scapular as part of the Message?" Lucia answered: “Yes.” And she added, “Now the Holy Father has already told this to the whole world, saying that the Brown Scapular is a sign of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart. Nobody can disagree now.” To make the point even clearer, I asked: “In giving the conditions of the Fatima Message, is it correct to say that the Brown Scapular is one of the conditions?” Lucia answered: “Yes, certainly.” Then I asked: “Is the wearing of the Scapular as important as the saying of the daily Rosary?” Lucia answered: “Yes, the Rosary and the Scapular are inseparable!”:tiphat:

Your comment seemed to be made in the spirit of, wearing a scapular is a requriement of being Catholic… If this is the spirit of your comment, you have yet to prove that sir.

 

[PRmerger]

Moses never attributed a miracle to himself as she did.That lady said nothing about believing in the Lord. She said she would perform the miracle to force people to believe in HER.That’s not what she said. Nor does she ever actually identify herself as Mary.

“Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these.”