How does Marian devotion save?

[moondweller]

Indeed. He has recognized and acquiesced to Catholic Sacred Tradition.

(In fact, as we all know, each and every time he quotes Scripture he is affirming his obedience to the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition. )

Scripture reveals that she was a virgin at the time of conception until the time of brith. Catholic Tradition, however, asserts that her virginity is perpetual. In belief I submit to the Scriptures, but not to the assertion of your Tradition. :tiphat:

As Jesus asked the Pharisees in Matt. 15:23:"Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"Well, for me, I cannot forsake the Scriptures for the sake of man’s Tradition when the Tradition held to is at odds with the Scriptures.

 

[crazzeto]

Scripture reveals that she was a virgin at the time of conception until the time of brith. Catholic Tradition, however, asserts that her virginity is perpetual. In belief I submit to the Scriptures, but not to the assertion of your Tradition. :tiphat:

As Jesus asked the Pharisees in Matt. 15:23:"Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"Well, for me, I cannot forsake the Scriptures for the sake of man’s Tradition when the Tradition held to is at odds with the Scriptures.

And your interpretation of say, John 5 which I cited for Fairlady. It should be on this page of the thread.

Edit
Of course it’s not:
John 5:31-47

 

[moondweller]

Indeed, there is something which MUST be defended, if you’re going to claim that betrothal was already a commitment to marry (which it was!).

The angel said Mary is GOING TO conceive. Any betrothed young lady at the time, planning to have NORMAL marital relations would not question how this is going to occur.

How is it you know what Mary understood? Please cite the chapter and verse that states that Mary understood that conception would take place very shortly.

Doesn’t the Scripture say exactly contrary to what you’re claiming?

No, not at all. The fact that she asked the question reveals she understood the conception was to occur shortly. AND IT DID. Prior to her actual wedding to Joseph. It’s all quite simple and straightforward, my friend.

 

[moondweller]

And your interpretation of say, John 5 which I cited for Fairlady. It should be on this page of the thread.

Edit
Of course it’s not:
John 5:31-47

What’s your point? I have believed Christ’s testimony concerning Himself and the testimony God bears of Him, as revealed in the Scriptures. Unlike those He was addressing, in belief I was willing to come to Him (Jn. 5:40).

 

[crazzeto]

What’s your point? I have believed Christ’s testimony concerning Himself and the testimony God bears of Him, as revealed in the Scriptures. Unlike those He was addressing, in belief I was willing to come to Him (Jn. 5:40).

You can negate the clear instructions of Christ with the scriptures them selves, exactly as the pharasies were doing.

Joh 5:38 And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him you believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.
Joh 5:40 And you will not come to me that you may have life.

Exactly as I’ve been stating all along, as was pointed out by Our Lady of Fatima and various other approved apperitions… Forget God’s justice at your own paril, always remain obediant to the Gospel message of Christ. Pray constantly for strength to remain faithful to Christ.

It is all these things, that the Ever Virgin Mary assits you with. Any idea that Salvation is a past event, that Christ has freed you from all personal obligations… This is a tradition of man, which negates the Word of God.

 

[moondweller]

The message of fatima is not so different from the Gospels are, at least for those who decide they need not be obediant to the Word of God.

The message of Fatima is VERY different from the Gospel accounts which are strictly about belief in Christ unto eternal life. The overall message of Fatima is:"On the 13th of July, the children saw Our Lady again. This time, after repeating the message of prayer and sacrifice, she suddenly opened her hands, and great shafts of light seemed to pour out of them and pierce the earth. The earth opened, revealing to the eyes of these innocent children, the terrible pit of Hell. There, Lucia tells us later, they could see the souls of the damned, cast about like sparks in a great fire, could hear the cries of pain and eternal remorse, could distinguish the devils by the nauseous forms they had taken of unknown animals. “You have seen Hell,” Our Lady explained, “where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wants to establish throughout the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.”…Then the Lady added: "In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph."IOW, the overall message of Fatima is devotion to that "Lady.’ She does not identify herself as Mary, the mother of Jesus. Also, it is told that your devotion to her and wearing the scapular are inseparable. Are you wearing one, “crazzeto?”

 

[mtoddm]

I did not fully “convert” to understanding Mary’s role in salvation history until a few years after entering the Church from my Evangelical Protestant background. What made it all click for me was reading, and rereading several times, St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion to Mary”, which someone else very aptly mentioned. This one small book very clearly lays out Mary’s role, and addresses the very issue most people have, that devotion to her somehow takes something away from Jesus.

Quite the contrary, lifting up Mary only lifts Jesus higher, as He is the Head, and she is the neck, so to speak. He sits upon her as on a throne. We the members of the Body receive all the graces of the Head through the neck, which is Mary. She connects us to the Saving Fountain of all Salvation. She saves us by distributing the graces Jesus won by His Death and Resurrection to us. Her mission and His are the same: The Salvation of the World.

Todd
catholicsojourner.blogspot.com/

 

[moondweller]

I did not fully “convert” to understanding Mary’s role in salvation history until a few years after entering the Church from my Evangelical Protestant background. What made it all click for me was reading, and rereading several times, St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion to Mary”, which someone else very aptly mentioned. This one small book very clearly lays out Mary’s role, and addresses the very issue most people have, that devotion to her somehow takes something away from Jesus.

Quite the contrary, lifting up Mary only lifts Jesus higher, as He is the Head, and she is the neck, so to speak. He sits upon her as on a throne. We the members of the Body receive all the graces of the Head through the neck, which is Mary. She connects us to the Saving Fountain of all Salvation. She saves us by distributing the graces Jesus won by His Death and Resurrection to us. Her mission and His are the same: The Salvation of the World.

The function of a “neck” is to support the head, and a “throne” is the symbol of power. So what you’re depicting here is that apart from Mary Jesus has no strength or power. In this depiction Mary is actually elevated above Jesus in strength and power. She being the source of them.

 

[quasimodo]

The function of a “neck” is to support the head, and a “throne” is the symbol of power. So what you’re depicting here is that apart from Mary Jesus has no strength or power. In this depiction Mary is actually elevated above Jesus in strength and power. She being the source of them.

Somewhere, some poor farmer just lost several bales of straw so that moondweller could create this strawman response. And notice how well moondweller’s strawman burns … convenient that.

 

[crazzeto]

The message of Fatima is VERY different from the Gospel accounts which are strictly about belief in Christ unto eternal life. The overall message of Fatima is:"On the 13th of July, the children saw Our Lady again. This time, after repeating the message of prayer and sacrifice, she suddenly opened her hands, and great shafts of light seemed to pour out of them and pierce the earth. The earth opened, revealing to the eyes of these innocent children, the terrible pit of Hell. There, Lucia tells us later, they could see the souls of the damned, cast about like sparks in a great fire, could hear the cries of pain and eternal remorse, could distinguish the devils by the nauseous forms they had taken of unknown animals. “You have seen Hell,” Our Lady explained, “where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wants to establish throughout the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.”…Then the Lady added: "In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph."IOW, the overall message of Fatima is devotion to that "Lady.’ She does not identify herself as Mary, the mother of Jesus. Also, it is told that your devotion to her and wearing the scapular are inseparable. Are you wearing one, “crazzeto?”

Not so different:
KJV

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rev 12

17: Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Romans 16

19: For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil;
20: then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
21: Timothy, my fellow worker, greets you; so do Lucius and Jason and Sosip’ater, my kinsmen.

 

[moondweller]

“*Then was seen the great miracle of the sun, during which the sun turned blood red and began to dance in the heavens; it even began to leave the sky and throw itself into the crowd of over seventy thousand people who watched in terrified wonder. All thought that the end of the world had come.” *

Mind you it says “a miracle,” not a “vision.” So, it was an actual, physical occurrence. I cannot find a documented account, newspaper clipping, etc., reporting the sun dancing and leaving the sky and throwing itself into a crowd and not burning up those people or, moreover, the destruction of the entire earth.

 

[quasimodo]

Mary is one who faithfully administers God’s grace in its various forms … one could say she is a steward of God’s grace.

 

[moondweller]

Not so different:
KJV

Rev 12

Romans 16

Yet not one of these passages mentions devotion to that lady and her “Immaculate Heart.” So, yes, VERY DIFFERENT, indeed.

 

[RBK]

quasimodo,

Your signature gave me a much needed laugh. Thank you.

 

[moondweller]

Not so different:
KJV

Rev 12

Romans 16

Oh, btw, crazzeto, are you wearing the required scapular? This garment isn’t mentioned in those passages either.

 

[crazzeto]

Oh, btw, crazzeto, are you wearing the required scapular? This garment isn’t mentioned in those passages either.

Since when is a scapular required? Please tell me the date and time at which this happend. Thanks

 

[crazzeto]

Yet not one of these passages mentions devotion to that lady and her “Immaculate Heart.” So, yes, VERY DIFFERENT, indeed.

You need to take off those evangelical glasses, and see the scriptures for what they’re saying. Passage 1, genisis God will put Emnity between the woman and the snake, Revelation 12, the dragon will make war on the woman, and her off spring, Romans 16, Paul tells Timothy he shall crush the head of the serpant.

None of these passages are in conflict with the fact that Christ was victorious on the cross. Want to guess how this is true?

 

[PRmerger]

No, not at all. The fact that she asked the question reveals she understood the conception was to occur shortly. AND IT DID. Prior to her actual wedding to Joseph. It’s all quite simple and straightforward, my friend.

Again, you are acquiescing to an extra-biblical tradition, for you have cited no verse which reveals what Mary understood.

But, hey, you’ve already acknowledged that you have many extra-biblical (and some in affirmation of Sacred Tradition) doctrines, so what’s one more?

 

[PRmerger]

]Well, for me, I cannot forsake the Scriptures for the sake of man’s Tradition when the Tradition held to is at odds with the Scriptures.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that, Moon!

 

[Tomster]

Scripture reveals that she was a virgin at the time of conception until the time of brith. Catholic Tradition, however, asserts that her virginity is perpetual. In belief I submit to the Scriptures, but not to the assertion of your Tradition. :tiphat:

As Jesus asked the Pharisees in Matt. 15:23:"Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"Well, for me, I cannot forsake the Scriptures for the sake of man’s Tradition when the Tradition held to is at odds with the Scriptures.

Moondweller,

You can run that last paragraph on your Fundamentalist friends but, please, do not try and get it past us. You have already fallen into the man made traditions of your Fundamentalist sect by your own admission.

By denying the infallible teaching of the true Church, you are trying to impose your own suppositions and guesses about what the Bible really says on anyone who will listen to your tripe. Quit playing Pope!