How does Marian devotion save?

[Fair_Lady]

I don’t seek to know Christ through the eyes of any human being, but rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself to me through the reading of His Word.

More later…

I kind of let that hanging and should expand just a little for clarification. I do appreciate other Christians’ insights and knowledge of God, but ultimately there must be agreement with scripture in all things.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady,

It is heartening to see that you and Moondweller agree on something. But just because the two of you agree on something does that make the matter you agree on true? If you were to take a good, close, hard, objective look at the history of your spiritual forefathers, it would become obvious to you that unity in belief was certainly not one their strong points to put it mildly. And the strife continues to his very day. The battle cry of the Reformers, "the Bible and the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura), is not even contained in the Bible.

Sola Scriptura is the most vulnerable dogma of the Reformation. We Catholics can prove, without question, by patristic, theological, exegetical and epistemological evidence which will demonstrate that Sola Scriptura is abosolutely indefensible. Not only that, it is a grave theological error that has led countless souls to doctrinal ruin. It is purely a human construct that all Christians who love and obey God’s Word should reject as a tradition of men that nullifies and distorts that Word.

And that’s a whole other topic. I am going try my best to stick to the topic at hand.

 

[ddarko]

I understand this debate has deteriorated in the usual Protestant attitude vs. Catholic.

Somethings I would like to state here is that Mary is important in our salvation since she is the way to Christ. Mary guides us, her children to our brother, lord and savior Jesus. If we have a close relationship with her, needless to say that we are also closer to Jesus.

For all the protestants who seem to have a very hostile attitude to Mary, you should know that Luther himself had a devotion and veneration of Mary and held her in a special position. Calvin himself supported aspects of Mario-logy such as Perpetual virginity. Maybe it is about time you question yourself as to why you are so hostile to Mary.

I would like to recommend the book ‘‘Hail Holy Queen’’ by Scott Hahn for anyone here who has an open mind. I will bet you that it will change your mind

God Bless

 

[Fair_Lady]

I love Our Lady of Fatima, in fact I was born around her feast day. Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us

The message of fatima is not so different from the Gospels are, at least for those who decide they need not be obediant to the Word of God.

I say this only with deep concern for you: Any allegiance to an apparition such as the “Lady of Fatima” puts you into dangerous territory. Your focus on “her” takes you away from the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Look and see for yourself. Compare the message from the “Lady of Fatima” with what Jesus tells us in scripture. They are opposed to each other. If you haven’t read Moondweller’s posts on this very subject, it would be good to do that. I just can’t emphasize enough how serious this all is. I’ll be praying for you.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Somethings I would like to state here is that Mary is important in our salvation since she is the way to Christ. Mary guides us, her children to our brother, lord and savior Jesus. If we have a close relationship with her, needless to say that we are also closer to Jesus.

I will never identify myself as a child of Mary. I am a child of God and I hold to that dearly. Jesus is The Way to God and I went to Him directly for my salvation.

For all the protestants who seem to have a very hostile attitude to Mary, you should know that Luther himself had a devotion and veneration of Mary and held her in a special position. Calvin himself supported aspects of Mario-logy such as Perpetual virginity. Maybe it is about time you question yourself as to why you are so hostile to Mary.

I have never been hostile towards Mary, but I do have a huge concern and perhaps it comes out as hostility towards the “veneration” of Mary which smacks of worship. What Luther and Calvin believed in this regard have no bearing on what I believe. What I believe is what God has revealed to us in scripture.

I would like to recommend the book ‘‘Hail Holy Queen’’ by Scott Hahn for anyone here who has an open mind.

Being open minded in certain ways has its pitfalls.

EDIT:

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

When Jesus said that, did He forget to mention to come to Him through Mary? I don’t think so. He beckons us to go to Him and were it so that we need to go through Mary, He would have told us.

 

[ddarko]

I will never identify myself as a child of Mary. I am a child of God and I hold to that dearly. Jesus is The Way to God and I went to Him directly for my salvation.

That’s like saying I am my Fathers child You are of course right but your statent is incomplete. What did you think Christ told John while he was hanging on the cross ?

I have never been hostile towards Mary, but I do have a huge concern and perhaps it comes out as hostility towards the “veneration” of Mary which smacks of worship. What Luther and Calvin believed in this regard have no bearing on what I believe. What I believe is what God has revealed to us in scripture.

I commend the fact that you believe what the bible holds. There is tons of support for Mary in the Bible. This is why I encourage you to read Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn .

Secondly, I mentioned Luther and Calvin since they are the founders of the protestant church. You obviously do believe that they were right in breaking away through the reformation. You are following the church they established. You are following the bible they adopted from the Catholic church with modifications of their own. Why do you pick and choose what you want to believe from their position? What if they were wrong to do the reformation in the first place and Sola scriptura and Sola fide is FALSE? What if the bible they handed down was false? So I think you have to admit that you do have to give some consideration to the fact that your founding fathers of the church had different beliefs from what you do today

I am also curious, how do you hold that ‘‘I only believe in scripture’’ when that is something you have to hold outside of it? You can’t use scripture to justify it since then its circular logic. So what is the logical basis for holding that you only believe what is in scripture?

Being open minded in certain ways has its pitfalls.

EDIT:

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

When Jesus said that, did He forget to mention to come to Him through Mary? I don’t think so. He beckons us to go to Him and were it so that we need to go through Mary, He would have told us.

Oh he said on the cross, John here is your mother did he not?

Plus Jesus in Matthew 11:28 was talking about coming to him. That no one denies is the final destination. But we arguing about how to come to him. That is a different matter from what your passage discusses.Therefore the passage you cited has no bearing on the matter of Mary.

Also the miracle in Cana, is a good example of the crowd approaching Jesus through Mary which is also in scriptures. From your logic, why didn’t they just go talk to Jesus? Why didn’t Jesus just say ‘‘If they want my help, tell them to come and ask me directly?’’

Plus, the church fathers believed the status of Mary as we do today. Are you saying they were wrong? If you do say they are wrong, what makes you think the Bible which was passed down and written by them is True?

Let me simply ask you, both Jesus and God commanded us to honor our parents. If even us creatures honor our mother and father, what makes you so sure that Mary is not honored by Christ in a special way? Are you saying we are better in that department than Christ himself?

And being open minded does not have pitfalls. It helps you correct mistakes. If the apostles were close minded, they would have rejected Christ just like the pharisees and we wouldn’t have Christianity today.

I once again challenge you to read the book ***Hail Holy Queen *** by Scott Hahn which contains a discussion from scripture. Read it, try to disprove it, challenge your beliefs and see if it really holds up

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

I say this only with deep concern for you: Any allegiance to an apparition such as the “Lady of Fatima” puts you into dangerous territory. Your focus on “her” takes you away from the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Look and see for yourself. Compare the message from the “Lady of Fatima” with what Jesus tells us in scripture. They are opposed to each other. If you haven’t read Moondweller’s posts on this very subject, it would be good to do that. I just can’t emphasize enough how serious this all is. ** I’ll be praying for you**.

Wouldn’t it be ironic to note that Our Lady of Fatima is praying for you right now? :heaven:

 

[PRmerger]

I will never identify myself as a child of Mary. I am a child of God and I hold to that dearly. Jesus is The Way to God and I went to Him directly for my salvation.

Like most Catholic things, we don’t put an either/or but a both/and. You are a child of God. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be a child of the Blessed Mother as well.

And of course you went to Him directly for your salvation, but the fact is, He came to you through “that woman”, the one whom all generations ought to call “blessed”.

 

[antonabe]

The Anti Mary sentiments expresed in this Thread is no surprise as Satan’s biggest enemy is the Virgin Mary.When all other arguements fail the agents and those inspired by Satan will cling the subject that is closer to the hearts of most people Sex.Mary is the most favored woman in Gods eyes and brought forth Jesus Christ the Son of God and she is therefore consecrated by him and her body is sacred and we Catholics believe that she was a Virgin at the birth of Jesus and also after his birth.Mud slinging by persons who do not profess our faith and beliefs inspired by Satan in the guise of dialogue will not change our stand and beliefs.I call upon the monitoring panel to close this thread as the motives of some persons participating are not for dialogue and learning but for tarnishing a persons image we honour.

 

[PRmerger]

The Anti Mary sentiments expresed in this Thread is no surprise as Satan’s biggest enemy is the Virgin Mary.When all other arguements fail the agents and those inspired by Satan will cling the subject that is closer to the hearts of most people Sex.Mary is the most favored woman in Gods eyes and brought forth Jesus Christ the Son of God and she is therefore consecrated by him and her body is sacred and we Catholics believe that she was a Virgin at the birth of Jesus and also after his birth.Mud slinging by persons who do not profess our faith and beliefs inspired by Satan in the guise of dialogue will not change our stand and beliefs.I call upon the monitoring panel to close this thread as the motives of some persons participating are not for dialogue and learning but for tarnishing a persons image we honour.

While it is clear that some on this thread are not here to examine everything and hold fast to the truth, there is benefit, IMHO, to continuing this dialogue.

There are multiple lurkers–many of them non-Catholics–who are reading the posts and examining the truth and perhaps will be convinced by the words of Catholics who have provided wonderful apologia for our veneration of the Woman whom all generations will call Blessed! In fact, if you look at the stats for this thread there are over 10,000 views. I think we ought to keep up the good work and continue to shoot down each and every refutation that’s proferred to give ammunition for future converts who may have never heard the faith explained in this way before.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Wouldn’t it be ironic to note that Our Lady of Fatima is praying for you right now? :heaven:

Are you familiar with this scripture? What do you think of it?

" Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us** with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
Romans 8:26 - 27**

 

[PRmerger]

Are you familiar with this scripture? What do you think of it?

" Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us** with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
Romans 8:26 - 27**

I am indeed familiar with this scripture.

As for what I think of it? I give a hearty “Amen!” to the words of the inspired writer.

Are you familiar with this scripture? What do you think of it?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:1-4 [/BIBLEDRB]

Doesn’t it sound like St. Paul is saying that intercessory prayer is required of us, and that it’s associated with our salvation?

 

[ddarko]

Are you familiar with this scripture? What do you think of it?

" Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us** with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
Romans 8:26 - 27**

No ones disagreeing with the passage.

Once again you are not understanding the distinction between what happens and how it happens. The spirit moves through people, humans and all of God’s creation. In the spirit we live move and have our being.

So it is the spirit that gives the grace to Mary to pray for us and intercede for us and lead us to Jesus as well.

From your view of interpretation of the passage, I can ask as to why we need Jesus because we can just use the holy spirit to go straight to God. And I hope you’d agree that its absurd and Scripture-wise contradictory. Therefore it should be clear that one cannot use the passage you cited in the context you want us to use it here

I am also awaiting a reply to my post (#704) which was in reply to your last post(#703).

God Bless

 

[crazzeto]

Are you familiar with this scripture? What do you think of it?

" Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us** with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
Romans 8:26 - 27**

Jesus him self made you a child of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

(Joh 19:25) Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

(Joh 19:26) When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

(Joh 19:27) Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

He did this for a purpose, and that purpose is because he knew his mother would be a powerful instrament leading many to him.

 

[LilyM]

The Anti Mary sentiments expresed in this Thread is no surprise as*** Satan’s biggest enemy is the Virgin Mary.***

No, Satan’s biggest enemy is Jesus Christ.

Certainly Mary, as ‘the woman’ prophesied in Genesis 3:15, shares fully in Jesus’ enmity with the evil one, though.

And few if any other humans than Mary can really have that deep-seated level of hatred for Satan that constitutes enmity - the rest of us certainly, if our manifold sins and backsliding are any evidence, far from being at enmity with Satan

 

[JustaServant]

The Anti Mary sentiments expresed in this Thread is no surprise as Satan’s biggest enemy is the Virgin Mary.

It’s almost an obsession with anti-Catholics. It’s a shame because they in misunderstanding the Dogma. they miss out on one of the most compelling aspects of being Catholic.

 

[Tomster]

And yet, curiously, Fair Lady has not displayed wisdom based on her Scriptural knowledge with her denial of OSAS dogma?

Is that your position, moon, that she is incorrect when she denies OSAS, based on her wisdom and Scriptural knowledge?

I appears that there are two different spirits informing Fair Lady and Moondweller on this all important topic. All of which just proves, again, the futility of their position.

 

[Tomster]

Moondweller,

Now that you have gone through this little exercise, would you please answer this question.

When was the last time your sect; pastors, elders, etc., met in Council to infallibly decide on ANYTHING regarding faith and morals, and have the decision placed in the New Testament?

AN ANSWER PLEASE!

Moon,

It seems you have neglected to answer this question.

Care to give it a try?

 

[Gerry_Zipf]

When we accept Mary “full of grace” we recognize her “immaculate” nature, which was lost to humanity at the fall. This condition of Mary, like the “virgin birth”, is MIRACULOUS. It is not subject to rational interpretation…though, like LIFE ITSELF we can accept it with reason.

Mother Mary is not an abstract idea or a construct of the Church. She is not simply some woman in history who had this wonderful child, Jesus. She, the mother of Jesus who is fully God and fully man, is unique, MIRACULOUS, unlike and not to be compared to any other woman in all time.

The mystery of Christ’s humanity and the meaning of that humanity seems to be the devil’s argument in this day and age…if not eternally! This is what stands out in all the arguments about the Eucharist and what it is or is not…and the same argument goes for Mary…Satan just will not go along with all this…SPECIAL STATUS for those of us who will be ROYAL children! We will be his children and life is nothing special really anyway.

When I was young and thought myself smart, I had my doubts about Catholicism. A friend said to me that I could know I was a Protestant because I could decide for myself! I thought, what kind of loving God would leave it up to me to figure it out and I have been a staunch Catholic since that beautiful day.

I know I am not like the Virgin Mary, but she is my mother…I trust her and the Church with my life.

 

[moondweller]

Moon,

It seems you have neglected to answer this question.

Care to give it a try?

I think I already answered this. NO MAN (save the Son of Man), hence, no council (being made up of men) is infallible. Men and councils can be accurate in their doctrinal assessment, based on what’s revealed in the written Word of God, but infallibility is reserved for God alone. :flowers: