How does Marian devotion save?

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PRmerger said:
Originally Posted by Fair Lady Are you familiar with this scripture? What do you think of it?" Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us** with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26 - 27**
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Fair_Lady said:
Then it is clear that we can count on the intercession of the Holy Spirit who searches our hearts and makes intercession according to the will of God. That begs the question: Why is there the emphasis of going to Mary, even though scripture does not include her as one who knows our hearts and minds?

Intercessory prayer is a wonderful thing for us as Christians to be involved in. Because we pray for each other in accordance with God’s will, He moves on our behalf and things are accomplished that we know are only because God’s hand was in it. Our faith in Him then becomes stronger and His peace which passes all understanding becomes our peace.

Having said that, where you and I differ is that I will only intercede for those who are still alive and are able to communicate with me. I will only call on the One Who is in heaven and Who is omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (He is everywhere).

Does Mary have those attributes that make it possible for us to communiciate with her? We don’t have anything in scripture that speaks to that and indicates that she does. So why not go to God alone whom we know hears us, knows us inside out and has the sovereign power to work on our behalf.
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Fairlady, I’m curious what you would think about Acts 9… This is something that St. Paul would spend a lot of time thinking about:
Act 9:3 And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew nigh to Damascus. And suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him.
Act 9:4 And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.
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Of course Paul wasn’t persecuting Christ was he? He was persecuting Christ’s followers, but Jesus didn’t say “why are you persecuting my followers”, he said why are you persecuting me.

Paul would later writing about this in hebrews
Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
Heb 12:2 Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who, having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.
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That is, all the Saints and Martyrs. Indeed, like I can pray for you, or you for me the Saints and Martyrs who have gone before us can pray for us, most effectatiously and constantly. Mary of course, is the highest of all the Saints, the one whom was always most perfectly conformed to Jesus Christ. This makes her intercession most particularly powerful.

Blessed Virgin Mary, pray for us.
 
Fair_Lady said:
Does Mary have those attributes that make it possible for us to communiciate with her? We don’t have anything in scripture that speaks to that and indicates that she does. So why not go to God alone whom we know hears us, knows us inside out and has the sovereign power to work on our behalf.
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Hi Fair Lady, that’s a very valid question. For us Catholics, we accept church tradition that is handed down to us throughout the ages. It’s kind of like our family traditions. Not only do we have early church Fathers who had strong devotion to Mary, we also have Saints who have written about Mary through private revelation which has been investigated and approved by the Church; we also have Marian apparitions that have been approved by the Church. If we look at all these things, it’s clear to us Catholics that God is pleased to make Mary known to Christians and to use Mary as a special channel of grace to Christians. It’s God’s will that the Church learns about Mary, develops a devotion to her, and teaches children of the Church about her. So yes for us Catholics, it’s not contriving to get to know Mary and live in communion with her, because God is the one that initiates this process throughout the age by different means.

For a non-Catholic, though, it’d be difficult in the beginning to see how one can appropriately grow a devotion to Mary, because God has not revealed Mary to them on a person-to-person basis. But God has chosen to reveal Mary to the Catholic Church. So it’s fitting, appropriate, and good for a Catholic to heed church recommendations and love Mary, because we have been given more infromation about Mary.
 
moondweller said:
I think I already answered this. NO MAN (save the Son of Man), hence, no council (being made up of men) is infallible. Men and councils can be accurate in their doctrinal assessment, based on what’s revealed in the written Word of God, but infallibility is reserved for God alone. :flowers:
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Well thanks again for agreeing with us then. “NO MAN” would, then, include YOU. How “accurate” are you? How “accurate” is Fair Lady when you both disagree on the very important question of salvation? Your “accuracy” and her “accuracy” are totally different.

Please explain.
 
moondweller said:
I think I already answered this. NO MAN (save the Son of Man), hence, no council (being made up of men) is infallible. Men and councils can be accurate in their doctrinal assessment, based on what’s revealed in the written Word of God, but infallibility is reserved for God alone. :flowers:
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Since God’s Word is infallible, wouldn’t it take an infallible interpeter to understand it?
 
PRmerger said:
While it is clear that some on this thread are not here to examine everything and hold fast to the truth, there is benefit, IMHO, to continuing this dialogue.

There are multiple lurkers–many of them non-Catholics–who are reading the posts and examining the truth and perhaps will be convinced by the words of Catholics who have provided wonderful apologia for our veneration of the Woman whom all generations will call Blessed! In fact, if you look at the stats for this thread there are over 10,000 views. I think we ought to keep up the good work and continue to shoot down each and every refutation that’s proferred to give ammunition for future converts who may have never heard the faith explained in this way before. 👍
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:hammering:
 
ddarko said:
You my friend are certainly confused.

According to your logic, why do you believe in Scripture? How do you know it is the word of God? It was constructed by the Catholic church. Maybe its not the word of God? If no council, man is infallible, then you have NO grounds to even make your claim in the first place. You are surely not claiming you are God? 🙂

Looks like you are being very illogical here 🙂

God Bless 🙂
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Logic is not one of Moondweller’s strongpoints.
 
Tomster said:
Logic is not one of Moondweller’s strongpoints.
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In the spirit of PR’s posting, I think some charity should be afforded. It’s clear that moondweller is fully indoctrinated into his faith tradition. It’s a hard thing to get over.
 
Fair_Lady said:
Then it is clear that we can count on the intercession of the Holy Spirit who searches our hearts and makes intercession according to the will of God. That begs the question: Why is there the emphasis of going to Mary, even though scripture does not include her as one who knows our hearts and minds?

Intercessory prayer is a wonderful thing for us as Christians to be involved in. Because we pray for each other in accordance with God’s will, He moves on our behalf and things are accomplished that we know are only because God’s hand was in it. Our faith in Him then becomes stronger and His peace which passes all understanding becomes our peace.

Having said that, where you and I differ is that I will only intercede for those who are still alive and are able to communicate with me. I will only call on the One Who is in heaven and Who is omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (He is everywhere).

Does Mary have those attributes that make it possible for us to communiciate with her? We don’t have anything in scripture that speaks to that and indicates that she does. So why not go to God alone whom we know hears us, knows us inside out and has the sovereign power to work on our behalf.
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Hey no offence,

But I would appreciate it if you had the courtesy to reply to my posts I made in reply to you. You still have not replied to POST #704. and posts I made addressing your passage about the holy spirit’s intercession.

If the holy spirit intercedes in the way you say, we have no need for Jesus even. We can just go straight to God through the spirit.

We do know that Mary can speak for us. Take the wedding at Cana (I mentioned this point to you in my Post #704 which you just simply avoid). Jesus didn’t say to his mother, ‘‘tell them to talk to me directly if they need anything’’. He listened to her. That is an example of Mary’s intercession.

Now with all due respect to you, please reply to my questions made to you in the prior posts 🙂

God Bless 🙂
 
ddarko said:
Hey no offence,

But I would appreciate it if you had the courtesy to reply to my posts I made in reply to you. You still have not replied to POST #704. and posts I made addressing your passage about the holy spirit’s intercession.

If the holy spirit intercedes in the way you say, we have no need for Jesus even. We can just go straight to God through the spirit.

We do know that Mary can speak for us. Take the wedding at Cana (I mentioned this point to you in my Post #704 which you just simply avoid). Jesus didn’t say to his mother, ‘‘tell them to talk to me directly if they need anything’’. He listened to her. That is an example of Mary’s intercession.

Now with all due respect to you, please reply to my questions made to you in the prior posts 🙂

God Bless 🙂
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If you are waiting for an answer. Do not hold your breath.
 
crazzeto said:
In the spirit of PR’s posting, I think some charity should be afforded. It’s clear that moondweller is fully indoctrinated into his faith tradition. It’s a hard thing to get over.
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"FAITH TRADITION ? ! ? " :eek:

Don’t tell that to him. :rotfl:
 
Tomster said:
Well thanks again for agreeing with us then. “NO MAN” would, then, include YOU. How “accurate” are you? How “accurate” is Fair Lady when you both disagree on the very important question of salvation? Your “accuracy” and her “accuracy” are totally different.

Please explain.
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Answers please!

(I am not holding my breath. :rotfl:)
 
moondweller said:
Proof?
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A ton has been provided moondweller, we have proofs ranging from the wedding feast, to Christ givig us Mary on the Cross, to the Communion of Saints and their important intercessory role. There is a whole lot of material for you to read through… Additionally there are several posts I made days (perhaps weeks now) ago directly to you which you never answered, or at the very least I missed the answers (if you have, I appologize and humbly ask for the post #'s) regarding a variety of topics. Including the wedding feast, and more
 
moondweller said:
Proof?
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Honestly Moon. Quit trying to lead us around by the nose. You have been given the Church’s teaching regarding the Communion of Saints time and time again. The proof has been given to you. Its time for YOU, the church of Moondweller, to start giving all of us answers to our questions. (Maybe you had better check with Fair Lady first to see if your answers coincide with hers.)
 
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