How does Marian devotion save?

[PRmerger]

In one split second I can tell that is not a God inspired quotation and I didn’t need the help of the CC. Why? Because I know enough of the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ to know that that statement is false and therefore cannot be inspired by God.

Another great example is ‘Saul went into the cave to relieve himself’. (1 Sam 24:3) Now I defy ANYONE to find ANYTHING about such a sentence, that will leap out at ANYBODY as marking it as inspired scripture. If you are familiar with scriptures, the name ‘Saul’ might possibly give it away, but not otherwise.

But let’s really test this theory of yours, FL. If you’re up for the challenge. I’ll find ten textual passages for you - maybe all from scripture, maybe all non-scriptural sources, maybe a mix. If you get ten for ten right, without consulting any books or googling or asking anyone else, and only going from your own gut, then I’ll enteratain the possibility that you’re right. Are you up for the challenge?

I would indeed like to see the response from Fair Lady, or Moon, who’s been conspicuously silent on answering whether the verses below are God’s revelation or not.

I’ve already given my list earlier in this post, (but, alas, I’ve already given clues as to what’s inspired in later posts.)

• All generations shall call me blessed!
• O you who believe! Remember God’s favor to you when there came against you forces, so We sent against them a strong wind and forces which you did not see, and God is Ever- Seeing what you do.
• My breath is offensive to my wife.
• For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
• Moreover, what I have now said in regard to abstaining from wanton looks should be carefully observed, with due love for the persons and hatred of the sin, in observing, forbidding, reporting, reproving, and punishing of all other fault.
• Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror," declares the LORD.
• And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones

There are numerous ancient Christian texts (good source is here) that give lots of verses that *sound *very inspired but are not–yet how iwould one know?

There are also numerous Hindu, Jewish, Muslim texts which also sound quite Scriptural. How does one know just by reading a verse whether it’s from God?

(NB: I believe this question is very much on the topic “How does Marian devotion save?”. If the CC, which gave us the canon of Scripture through the inspiration of the HS is correct on this issue–and it clearly is else how can non-Catholics quote verses without the authority of the Church–then it follows that when the Church promotes Marian devotion she is also correct.)

 

[elts1956]

The faith, according to the Scriptures, is not about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth. The O.T. was the anticipation of Him. The Gospel accounts the revelation of Him. The Book of Acts the propagation of Him. The Epistles the explanation of Him. The Book of Revelation the consummation of Him. The Scriptures speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. Such a concept within the faith is foreign to the Scriptures.

Apparently you are sola scriptura. The Catholic Church teaches Mother Mary’s perpetual Virginity. If you read any of the reasoning on this, perhaps you would understand our perspective better. For instance, why would God the Father want His Son to be born of an ordinary woman? Those are a dime a dozen, with some differences among them.

We hold Mary to be a very special person indeed. Born without Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, and Assumed into Heaven. Not ordinary at all.

 

[Pitcharan]

The faith, according to the Scriptures, is not about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth. The O.T. was the anticipation of Him. The Gospel accounts the revelation of Him. The Book of Acts the propagation of Him. The Epistles the explanation of Him. The Book of Revelation the consummation of Him. The Scriptures speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. Such a concept within the faith is foreign to the Scriptures.

Dear Moondweller, who religiously follows the scriptures! do not forget the fact that there were many “scripture scholars” who read the scriptures day-in and day-out, but failed to recognize the promised Messiah prophesied in the scriptures.

Recall Jeremiah 8:8: How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD”, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

Precious things are seldom available in pure form: gold, silver, diamond. They are mined and separated from the muck that surrounds them. (Though you may find a least precious thing like sand abundantly without the need to clean it or separate it from other things.)

The Word of God is most precious; we have to ponder over scripture texts and receive the truth by the help of God’s Spirit.

Salvation is all about separating light from darkness and segregating the sheep and the goats.

The jews believed that divorce was fine with God and quoted Mosaic laws. Our Lord gently and most effectively established the truth by recalling the originally good creation of God and clearly pointing out the corruption brought about by hard hearted humans who forcibly obtained from Moses what they wanted.

Scripture is only an aid; it’s accuracy or shortcoming is not an issue for God’s people who depend on His Spirit.

The catholic church that promotes Marian devotion, is led by God’s Spirit.
Many Protestants, Lutherans, Muslims and Hindus have personally testified to me saying,
they experienced (actually felt) God’s presence only in a catholic church.

 

[moondweller]

Dear Moondweller, who religiously follows the scriptures! do not forget the fact that there were many “scripture scholars” who read the scriptures day-in and day-out, but failed to recognize the promised Messiah prophesied in the scriptures.

That’s true. But the fact still remains those same Scriptures that speak clearly of the Messiah, anticipated in the O.T. and revealed in the N.T., speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. That concept is foreign to the Scriptures.

Recall Jeremiah 8:8: How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD”, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

What about those who exalt a perpetual virgin and ascribe mediatorial powers to her?

Precious things are seldom available in pure form: gold, silver, diamond. They are mined and separated from the muck that surrounds them. (Though you may find a least precious thing like sand abundantly without the need to clean it or separate it from other things.)

Yeah, but the gold has to be there first. Also there is such a thing as fool’s gold.

The Word of God is most precious; we have to ponder over scripture texts and receive the truth by the help of God’s Spirit.

Absolutely. What makes true Christian faith different from all the rest of the religions on this earth (past and present) is it’s based entirely on Divine Revelation: God’s Word, not the word of men. And when we “ponder over Scriptures texts” we see that the faith, according to those Scriptures, is not at all about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth.

Salvation is all about separating light from darkness and segregating the sheep and the goats.

Salvation is about BELIEVING in the Son and His vicarious, propitiatory, expiatory, substitutionary, death on a cross on our behalf. Believing as the Scriptures say,“He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” And that “…there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Jesus said of the Spirit when He came at Pentecost that “He shall glorify Me.” Not once in the Scriptures does the Spirit glorify or exalt a perpetual virgin.

The jews believed that divorce was fine with God and quoted Mosaic laws. Our Lord gently and most effectively established the truth by recalling the originally good creation of God and clearly pointing out the corruption brought about by hard hearted humans who forcibly obtained from Moses what they wanted.

Divorce was allowed in the Law. But the Scriptures do not allow for an exalted perpetual virgin as a part of the faith.

Scripture is only an aid; it’s accuracy or shortcoming is not an issue for God’s people who depend on His Spirit.

The Scriptures are the Word of God and are therefore inerrant and have no shortcomings. And the Spirit, who breathed them, reveals nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin, requiring men to believe in her.

The catholic church that promotes Marian devotion, is led by God’s Spirit. Many Protestants, Lutherans, Muslims and Hindus have personally testified to me saying,they experienced (actually felt) God’s presence only in a catholic church.

Ah-huh. Well, there’s something drastically wrong when Muslims and Hindus “feel” comfortable in a catholic church. The true gospel of Christ when accurately preached divides men, it doesn’t unit them: Matt 10:35 “For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

 

[PRmerger]

What makes true Christian faith different from all the rest of the religions on this earth (past and present) is it’s based entirely on Divine Revelation: God’s Word, not the word of men.

You are in agreement with Muslims who talk about “People of the Book.” Your religion is a “religion of the book.”

However, Catholicism is a religion of the Word. The Word made Flesh.

 

[Tomster]

You are in agreement with Muslims who talk about “People of the Book.” Your religion is a “religion of the book.”

However, Catholicism is a religion of the Word. The Word made Flesh.

He still cannot see the forest from the trees.

 

[Tomster]

That’s true. But the fact still remains those same Scriptures that speak clearly of the Messiah, anticipated in the O.T. and revealed in the N.T., speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. That concept is foreign to the Scriptures.What about those who exalt a perpetual virgin and ascribe mediatorial powers to her?Yeah, but the gold has to be there first. Also there is such a thing as fool’s gold.Absolutely. What makes true Christian faith different from all the rest of the religions on this earth (past and present) is it’s based entirely on Divine Revelation: God’s Word, not the word of men. And when we “ponder over Scriptures texts” we see that the faith, according to those Scriptures, is not at all about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth.Salvation is about BELIEVING in the Son and His vicarious, propitiatory, expiatory, substitutionary, death on a cross on our behalf. Believing as the Scriptures say,“He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” And that “…there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Jesus said of the Spirit when He came at Pentecost that “He shall glorify Me.” Not once in the Scriptures does the Spirit glorify or exalt a perpetual virgin.Divorce was allowed in the Law. But the Scriptures do not allow for an exalted perpetual virgin as a part of the faith.The Scriptures are the Word of God and are therefore inerrant and have no shortcomings. And the Spirit, who breathed them, reveals nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin, requiring men to believe in her.Ah-huh. Well, there’s something drastically wrong when Muslims and Hindus “feel” comfortable in a catholic church. The true gospel of Christ when accurately preached divides men, it doesn’t unit them: Matt 10:35 “For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4748938&page=2

Post #18

 

[Tomster]

That’s true. But the fact still remains those same Scriptures that speak clearly of the Messiah, anticipated in the O.T. and revealed in the N.T., speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. That concept is foreign to the Scriptures.What about those who exalt a perpetual virgin and ascribe mediatorial powers to her?Yeah, but the gold has to be there first. Also there is such a thing as fool’s gold.Absolutely. What makes true Christian faith different from all the rest of the religions on this earth (past and present) is it’s based entirely on Divine Revelation: God’s Word, not the word of men. And when we “ponder over Scriptures texts” we see that the faith, according to those Scriptures, is not at all about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth.Salvation is about BELIEVING in the Son and His vicarious, propitiatory, expiatory, substitutionary, death on a cross on our behalf. Believing as the Scriptures say,“He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” And that “…there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Jesus said of the Spirit when He came at Pentecost that “He shall glorify Me.” Not once in the Scriptures does the Spirit glorify or exalt a perpetual virgin.Divorce was allowed in the Law. But the Scriptures do not allow for an exalted perpetual virgin as a part of the faith.The Scriptures are the Word of God and are therefore inerrant and have no shortcomings. And the Spirit, who breathed them, reveals nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin, requiring men to believe in her.Ah-huh. Well, there’s something drastically wrong when Muslims and Hindus “feel” comfortable in a catholic church. The true gospel of Christ when accurately preached divides men, it doesn’t unit them: Matt 10:35 “For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4748939&page=2

post #18

 

[Tomster]

That’s true. But the fact still remains those same Scriptures that speak clearly of the Messiah, anticipated in the O.T. and revealed in the N.T., speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. That concept is foreign to the Scriptures.What about those who exalt a perpetual virgin and ascribe mediatorial powers to her?Yeah, but the gold has to be there first. Also there is such a thing as fool’s gold.Absolutely. What makes true Christian faith different from all the rest of the religions on this earth (past and present) is it’s based entirely on Divine Revelation: God’s Word, not the word of men. And when we “ponder over Scriptures texts” we see that the faith, according to those Scriptures, is not at all about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth.Salvation is about BELIEVING in the Son and His vicarious, propitiatory, expiatory, substitutionary, death on a cross on our behalf. Believing as the Scriptures say,“He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” And that “…there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Jesus said of the Spirit when He came at Pentecost that “He shall glorify Me.” Not once in the Scriptures does the Spirit glorify or exalt a perpetual virgin.Divorce was allowed in the Law. But the Scriptures do not allow for an exalted perpetual virgin as a part of the faith.The Scriptures are the Word of God and are therefore inerrant and have no shortcomings. And the Spirit, who breathed them, reveals nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin, requiring men to believe in her.Ah-huh. Well, there’s something drastically wrong when Muslims and Hindus “feel” comfortable in a catholic church. The true gospel of Christ when accurately preached divides men, it doesn’t unit them: Matt 10:35 “For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

Moon,

Have you ever asked yourself the question, “What are the Catholics on this thread trying to say to me?”

 

[Tomster]

Bingo

Thank you very much PR!

As we attempt, ever so slowly, to get this thread back on track, let’s review:

1. We have discredited Moondwellers belief, with the help of his Protestant counterpart Fair Lady, on the topic of OSAS.
2. We have shown that Moondweller, with the help of his own admission, is not the infallible interpreter of Scripture.
3. We have shown Moondweller, the true meaning of Theopneustos

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=473208&page=3 post #45

1. We have demonstrated to Moondweller the true meaning of Sacred Tradition compared to the false man made traditions of his sect.
2. We proven, beyond a doubt, that Moondweller’s skills regarding logic 101 are deficient.
3. We have shown Moondweller that we wouldn’t have a Bible as we know it today were it not for the Catholic Church.
4. We have shown Moondweller that his conception of some nebulous “invisible” Church is totally unbiblical.
5. We have shown Moondweller that his Incarnational theology and his conception of the Communion of Saints is a figment of the imagination of some preacher who sold Moondweller a bill of goods and that by swallowing this bill of goods proves that Moondweller depends on an erroneous, extra-biblical tradition of man which trashes his firmly held belief of Sola Scriptura.

Did I miss anything guys?

Feel free to add to this list.

 

[Tomster]

That’s true. But the fact still remains those same Scriptures that speak clearly of the Messiah, anticipated in the O.T. and revealed in the N.T., speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. That concept is foreign to the Scriptures.What about those who exalt a perpetual virgin and ascribe mediatorial powers to her?Yeah, but the gold has to be there first. Also there is such a thing as fool’s gold.Absolutely. What makes true Christian faith different from all the rest of the religions on this earth (past and present) is it’s based entirely on Divine Revelation: God’s Word, not the word of men. And when we “ponder over Scriptures texts” we see that the faith, according to those Scriptures, is not at all about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth.Salvation is about BELIEVING in the Son and His vicarious, propitiatory, expiatory, substitutionary, death on a cross on our behalf. Believing as the Scriptures say,“He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” And that “…there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Jesus said of the Spirit when He came at Pentecost that “He shall glorify Me.” Not once in the Scriptures does the Spirit glorify or exalt a perpetual virgin.Divorce was allowed in the Law. But the Scriptures do not allow for an exalted perpetual virgin as a part of the faith.The Scriptures are the Word of God and are therefore inerrant and have no shortcomings. And the Spirit, who breathed them, reveals nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin, requiring men to believe in her.Ah-huh. Well, there’s something drastically wrong when Muslims and Hindus “feel” comfortable in a catholic church. The true gospel of Christ when accurately preached divides men, it doesn’t unit them: Matt 10:35 “For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

More of your own made made oral traditions I see.

 

[moondweller]

You are in agreement with Muslims who talk about “People of the Book.” Your religion is a “religion of the book.”

The content of my FAITH is what’s revealed in the Book concerning the Man Christ Jesus.

However, Catholicism is a religion of the Word. The Word made Flesh.

And an exalted, perpetual virgin. What you say of the Word made flesh you also say of the exalted, perpetual virgin (short of deity).

 

[moondweller]

Moon,

Have you ever asked yourself the question, “What are the Catholics on this thread trying to say to me?”

I hear all of you, loud and clear, “over.” Do your read me?, “over.”

 

[moondweller]

More of your own made made oral traditions I see.

No, an observation and comparison based on what is NOT revealed in Scripture.

 

[crazzeto]

Can no one offer a dispute to my claims that St. Paul was decidedly not lugging around a library of scrolls with him everywhere he went saying “read this.”?

 

[PRmerger]

The content of my FAITH is what’s revealed in the Book concerning the Man Christ Jesus

Yet, curiously, this Book does not say that the content of your faith is what’s revealed in the Book concerning the Man Jesus Christ.

[SIGN1]
That is an extra-biblical, man-made tradition not supported by Scripture.[/SIGN1]

In fact, your man-made belief is CONTRARY to Scripture.
There are many things which Jesus did which are not recorded in the Scriptures. Scripture says so!

 

[Prophesy]

Can no one offer a dispute to my claims that St. Paul was decidedly not lugging around a library of scrolls with him everywhere he went saying “read this.”?

Keep in mind that St. Paul didn’t carry the scrolls because he was carrying around the 1611 King James Version.

-Prophecy

 

[moondweller]

Can no one offer a dispute to my claims that St. Paul was decidedly not lugging around a library of scrolls with him everywhere he went saying “read this.”?

It’s a moot point. The prophets in the O.T. spoke to Israel and also recorded their prophecies in theopneustos Scriptures. And when the time came that Christ fulfilled those prophecies, He didn’t resurrect those prophets, but He personally took His Apostles through those divinely written records (Scriptures) which predicted His sufferings and His subsequent glory to follow:Luke 24:25-27 "And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! “Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."God ordained that the faith be rooted in theopneustos Scriptures. It’s the way He’s preserved His word in this world since Moses. It’s why we have the N.T. Scriptures. They reveal the content of a true Christian faith. They reveal Christ and explain what He accomplished for us through His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection. As well as the true church Christ is building and its eternal relationship to Him, through faith. The Scriptures and the faith are inseparable. They’re the content of faith. Faith isn’t a “quality” cleaving to the heart apart from what’s revealed in the Scriptures concerning Christ and one’s salvation. It’s a trust in God’s Word, the promise of God, preserved in Holy Writ.

 

[moondweller]

Yet, curiously, this Book does not say that the content of your faith is what’s revealed in the Book concerning the Man Jesus Christ.

Of course not. But the content of my faith is what’s revealed concerning Him there.

In fact, your man-made belief is CONTRARY to Scripture.

To the contrary. Christ Himself took His Apostles through the Scriptures in order that they might believe with confidence (Lk. 24:25-27). And the Apostle John wrote:1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

There are many things which Jesus did which are not recorded in the Scriptures. Scripture says so!

And we’ll never know what those things are in this life. My faith does not abide in what is not revealed, but what IS revealed. Nor does it go beyond what is written - or add to it.

 

[crazzeto]

It’s a moot point. The prophets in the O.T. spoke to Israel and also recorded their prophecies in theopneustos Scriptures. And when the time came that Christ fulfilled those prophecies, He didn’t resurrect those prophets, but He personally took His Apostles through those divinely written records (Scriptures) which predicted His sufferings and His subsequent glory to follow:Luke 24:25-27 "And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! “Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."God ordained that the faith be rooted in theopneustos Scriptures. It’s the way He’s preserved His word in this world since Moses. It’s why we have the N.T. Scriptures. They reveal the content of a true Christian faith. They reveal Christ and explain what He accomplished for us through His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection. As well as the true church Christ is building and its eternal relationship to Him, through faith. The Scriptures and the faith are inseparable. They’re the content of faith. Faith isn’t a “quality” cleaving to the heart apart from what’s revealed in the Scriptures concerning Christ and one’s salvation. It’s a trust in God’s Word, the promise of God, preserved in Holy Writ.

So you admit, that there is aboslutly no historical (or scriptual) basis for a bible only theology. Thanks,

Now your argument here, in no way addresses the role of the blessed virgin Mary who in fact appeared frequently in OT prophasy:

Gen 3:14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
Gen 3:15 ** I will put enmities between thee and the woman**, and thy seed and her seed: she shall cursh thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign.** Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel**.
Isa 7:15 He shall eat butter and honey, that he may know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good.

Mic 5:2 And thou Bethlehem Ephrata, art a little one among the thousands of Juda, out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity.
Mic 5:3 Therefore will he give them up even till the time wherein** she that travaileth shall bring forth: and the remnant of his brethren shall be converted to the children of Israel.**

Jer 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

Let us not forget that several old testament types refer to the virgin mary… For instance, what did the Ark of the Covenant contain? The 10 commandments (word of God), Aarons rod (sign of high priest hood), mana from heaven.

What did Mary contain in her belly? Jesus Christ, who is:
The true Mana from Heaven (John 6)
The Word of God (John 1)
The High Priest (Hebrews)

How did man become stained by sin? Why through Adams sin (Romans, more)… How did Adam come to the occation of sin? By Eve, who through an angel commited an act of total disobediance

How did man come into the grace of God? Why by the Act of one man (Jesus Christ), and who brought forth the Christ? Why a woman, who through an Angel, commited an act of total obediance.

What does that make Mary? The Second Eve!

That’s just two old testament types fulfilled in Mary. And you claim that she’s no where to be found in the Old Testament…