How does Marian devotion save?

[PRmerger]

Keep in mind that St. Paul didn’t carry the scrolls because he was carrying around the 1611 King James Version.

-Prophecy

Yep, which just fell out of the sky, in hardcover, without any assistance from the CC.

All Christians just were able to read, “My breath is offensive to my wife” and “Saul went into a cave to relieve himself” and know, instinctively, that it was the Word of God.

Don’t need no stinkin’ Church to tell me what’s inspired. I just know!

And, similarly, I don’t need no stinkin’ Church to tell me that devotion to Mary is a good thing!

 

[PRmerger]

Of course not. But the content of my faith is what’s revealed concerning Him there

Amen. It’s just not the only place you get your Revelation. You get it from Sacred Tradition as well, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Each and every time you cite a Scripture verse it’s only because of Sacred Tradition telling you it’s inspired.

To the contrary. Christ Himself took His Apostles through the Scriptures in order that they might believe with confidence (Lk. 24:25-27).

What Scriptures were these, moon? The letter to the Hebrews? Did Jesus carry around the King James version of the Scriptures?

If you’re going to say Jesus Himself took His Apostles th rough the Scriptures–that is, through the OT writings, then you’re saying that we must do what Jesus did and only use the OT.

 

[PRmerger]

And the Apostle John wrote:1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Ok. If you’re going to take this as an indication that all God’s revelation is in what’s written, then, according to this verse, all God’s revelation is*** only in the things John has written.***


That’s what it says, eh?

 

[GaryTaylor]

There has never been, and there never will be, either in Gods creation or in his mind, a mere creature in who he is so honored as he is in the Blessed Virgin Mary. Not all the Saints together, nor all the cherubim and the highest seraphim in Heaven, can equal the Glory bestowed upon the Soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is because her Soul was singularly created to be the vessel of the Holy Spirit. Mary “is” Gods garden of Paradise. She is his unspeakable world, into which his Son entered to do wonderful things: to tend it, to perfect it, and to take his delight in it.

Mary is the mold of God. Through her, God fashioned by the Holy Spirit, the human nature of Jesus Christ, who is true God of the hypostatic union. Now, through her he also fashions through Grace, men who are the image’s of his Son. No godly feature is missing from this mystical mold. Everyone who cast’s himself into and allows himself to be molded will acquire every feature of Jesus Christ with very little pain or effort: as befits his weak human condition. He will take on a faithful likeness to Jesus Christ with no possibility of distortion, for the Devil has never had, and never will have any access to Mary, in whom there is not the least stain of Sin.

The difficulty, then, is how to arrive at the true knowledge of the most holy Virgin.and so to find Grace in abundance through her. It is very True that God who is absolute Master, can give the graces which he now oridinarily dispense’s through Mary, directly. It would be rash to deny that not only can he dispense his grace directly, but he always did so in the past, and he also does so sometimes now. God directly sanctifys all the Saints of the Old Testament, especially Mose’s, St John the Baptist and St. Joseph. However St. Thomas assures us that now, a new order of grace has been established by the divine wisdom of the church, which is the mystical body of Christ. No today God imparts his Grace to men through Mary.

God sent Christ to us through Mary. Wouldn’t it make perfect sense then to go to God and Jesus Christ though the Blessed Mother Mary?

Thats part of How the Marian Devotion Save’s. God chose Mary to become dependant on when his devine nature assumed a human nature. Only “after” Christ assumed dependance on Mary in his human nature, did he began to impart his Grace’s of Salvation to men. Now, our human natures should be re-assumed into his devine nature by the very same means he chose to unite himself to us; dependence upon Mary. Clearly the very first means that Jesus used to unite himself to us, was through a complete dependence upon his mother Mary Christ himself points us to how true devotion to Mary begins. This is not just a passing observation. This is a essential principle! Begining with absolute dependence on Mary, we begin to perfectly imitate Jesus Christ himself. What he did by his total dependence in body and soul within Mary, we must imitate in Spirit. We must permit ourselves to be formed to his likeness within her, by submitting ourselves interiorly to a total dependence upon her. This is how we begin to become perfect members of the mystical body of Christ.

Happy is the Soul in which Mary the Tree of Life is planted. Happier still is the Soul in which she has been able to Blossem and Grow. Happier again is the Souls which she brings forth her fruit, But happiest is the Soul which savors the sweetness of Mary’s fruit and preserves it up till death and then beyond to all eternity. Amen.

“Secret of Mary” St. Louis de Montfort

You know its just a reality that not every one gets this. And I get that! Yet if you do, that is a Grace of God. And should never be looked at any other way but cherished.

 

[LilyM]

Ok. If you’re going to take this as an indication that all God’s revelation is in what’s written, then, according to this verse, all God’s revelation is*** only in the things John has written.***


That’s what it says, eh?

Which begs the question, since God’s revelation must have been complete at the point John wrote those words, why John went on to write the rest of that particular Epistle, two more Epistles, and Revelation. For someone whose revelation was allegedly complete, God certainly had a lot more to say.

 

[anthony022071]

It’s a moot point. The prophets in the O.T. spoke to Israel and also recorded their prophecies in theopneustos Scriptures. And when the time came that Christ fulfilled those prophecies, He didn’t resurrect those prophets, but He personally took His Apostles through those divinely written records (Scriptures) which predicted His sufferings and His subsequent glory to follow:

Luke 24:25-27 "And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! “Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.”

The Hebrew scriptures were only credible to the Jewish people because the Jewish priesthood upheld them as inspired by God. Moses,who wrote the Torah,was a priest.

God ordained that the faith be rooted in theopneustos Scriptures. It’s the way He’s preserved His word in this world since Moses. It’s why we have the N.T. Scriptures. They reveal the content of a true Christian faith. They reveal Christ and explain what He accomplished for us through His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection. As well as the true church Christ is building and its eternal relationship to Him, through faith. The Scriptures and the faith are inseparable. They’re the content of faith. Faith isn’t a “quality” cleaving to the heart apart from what’s revealed in the Scriptures concerning Christ and one’s salvation. It’s a trust in God’s Word, the promise of God, preserved in Holy Writ.

God did not ordain that all doctrine must be rooted in scripture,and the early Church did not believe that they were. The only people who believed in sola scriptura were heretics.
God preserves His Word in the teaching authority of the Church itself,just as the Jewish priesthood preserved the scriptures.

 

[Fair_Lady]

The Word of God is most precious; we have to ponder over scripture texts and receive the truth by the help of God’s Spirit.

Yes, I agree with that whole heartedly.

Scripture is only an aid; it’s accuracy or shortcoming is not an issue for God’s people who depend on His Spirit.

Shortcomings? What would you consider the shortcomings of scripture?

The catholic church that promotes Marian devotion, is led by God’s Spirit. Many Protestants, Lutherans, Muslims and Hindus have personally testified to me saying, they experienced (actually felt) God’s presence only in a catholic church.

Feelings can be wonderful, but our testing of the spirits should not be based on feelings because our feelings are fickle.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Another great example is ‘Saul went into the cave to relieve himself’. (1 Sam 24:3) Now I defy ANYONE to find ANYTHING about such a sentence, that will leap out at ANYBODY as marking it as inspired scripture. If you are familiar with scriptures, the name ‘Saul’ might possibly give it away, but not otherwise.

But let’s really test this theory of yours, FL. If you’re up for the challenge. I’ll find ten textual passages for you - maybe all from scripture, maybe all non-scriptural sources, maybe a mix. If you get ten for ten right, without consulting any books or googling or asking anyone else, and only going from your own gut, then I’ll enteratain the possibility that you’re right. Are you up for the challenge?

I think I am possibly beginning to understand where the stumbling block is here for those of you who are grappling with the concept of all scripture being inspired by God. Maybe it would help if we can think of it this way. Here’s an analogy. Have you every testified in court as a witness? I have several times and know that absolute importance of telling the truth. Now, let’s say that I were to tell the judge the details of a lie that someone told me. In the end, even though I told the complete truth, my truth contained a lie because I related someone else’s lie.

Now, as for scripture having been inspired by God, He inspired men to record accounts of true stories which were to be preserved for all time, according to His will. Some of scripture includes words directly from God to man. But much of these accounts contain everyday run of the mill things, details of sin, etc., etc. and if taken by themselves, certainly wouldn’t be considered as inspired by God. But God in His wisdom is using those accounts which now are in the Bible to as it says in Timothy 3:16:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I hope this helps…Moondweller, what do you have to add?

 

[LilyM]

I think I am possibly beginning to understand where the stumbling block is here for those of you who are grappling with the concept of all scripture being inspired by God. Maybe it would help if we can think of it this way. Here’s an analogy. Have you every testified in court as a witness? I have several times and know that absolute importance of telling the truth. Now, let’s say that I were to tell the judge the details of a lie that someone told me. In the end, even though I told the complete truth, my truth contained a lie because I related someone else’s lie.

Now, as for scripture having been inspired by God, He inspired men to record accounts of true stories which were to be preserved for all time, according to His will. Some of scripture includes words directly from God to man. But much of these accounts contain everyday run of the mill things, details of sin, etc., etc. and ***if taken by themselves, certainly wouldn’t be considered as inspired by God. *** But God in His wisdom is using those accounts which now are in the Bible to as it says in Timothy 3:16:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I hope this helps…Moondweller, what do you have to add?

Really? Some parts of inspired scripture aren’t inspired after all? :whacky:

Pray tell, how do you know these portions of scripture aren’t inspired? How do you know which ones ARE inspired?

Seems to me the Holy Spirit is awfully sloppy by your reckoning if He can’t keep mere ordinary run of the mill uninspired accounts of events out of His inspired word.

Please, please, enlighten us all. Tell us exactly which verses of scripture aren’t inspired so that we can excise them out of our Bibles straight away. I for one don’t want to have mere historical chaff mixed in with the grain of God’s inspired word - if I want historical addenda I can get them from other textbooks, after all.

By the way - you should still be able, using nothing but your own gut guided by the Holy Spirit, to tell the difference between a bit of scriptural text and something that’s not from scripture. If the Holy Spirit put/allowed a particular sentence to stand in scripture then He did so for a reason, after all. So for the same reason, He should still be able to tell you the difference between what is scripture and what isn’t.

So my challenge still stands, and nothing you’ve said should prevent you from being able to succeed in it.

 

[PRmerger]

Which begs the question, since God’s revelation must have been complete at the point John wrote those words, why John went on to write the rest of that particular Epistle, two more Epistles, and Revelation. For someone whose revelation was allegedly complete, God certainly had a lot more to say.

Yes, it certainly does prompt that question as to why John would write more!

If you take moondweller’s argument to its logical conclusion he has to agree that only the 1st Epistle of John is inspired.

 

[PRmerger]

Shortcomings? What would you consider the shortcomings of scripture?

Well, one shortcoming is that it did not come with a Table of Contents. You needed the CC to determine that.

 

[PRmerger]

I think I am possibly beginning to understand where the stumbling block is here for those of you who are grappling with the concept of all scripture being inspired by God.

FL, there is no Catholic here so far who has been grappling with the concept of all Scripture being inspired by God. We give a hearty Amen to that! Our Catechism affirms and upholds this!

The question is: who told you what belongs in Scripture? i.e. who told you that the Gospel of Matthew is God’s word?

The CC did!

We’re just pointing that out to you. And if the CC told you that the Gospel of Matthew is God’s word and you believe that, then why don’t you believe the CC when she expresses the importance of Marian devotion?

 

[PRmerger]

By the way - you should still be able,** using nothing but your own gut** guided by the Holy Spirit, to tell the difference between a bit of scriptural text and something that’s not from scripture. If the Holy Spirit put/allowed a particular sentence to stand in scripture then He did so for a reason, after all. So for the same reason, He should still be able to tell you the difference between what is scripture and what isn’t.

So my challenge still stands, and nothing you’ve said should prevent you from being able to succeed in it.

Here’s a few to start (in addition to the other ones already posted)

• and he proclaims that he is the Son of God, and a king; moreover, he profanes the Sabbath, and desires to abolish the law of our fathers.
• So I bought her for fifteen pieces of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley.
• And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said, ‘I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.’ And the king said to her, ‘Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.
• As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit

Originally Posted by Fair Lady
In one split second I can tell that is not a God inspired quotation and I didn’t need the help of the CC. Why? Because I know enough of the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ to know that that statement is false and therefore cannot be inspired by God.

Again this is on topic as it shows that if the CC is right about the canon of Scripture, then it ought to be heeded when it speaks of Marian devotion. (Not to mention that one of the above quotes in question is most definitely INSPIRED and speaks to a king’s devotion and veneration of His Mother.

 

[Pitcharan]

… The true gospel of Christ when accurately preached divides men, it doesn’t unite them: Matt 10:35 “For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

Your rabid opposition to the veneration of Blessed Virgin Mary is only increasing your blindness and you are plunging yourself into darkness,

I pray to Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede for you that the Holy Spirit may enlighten you. May God grant you light!

Pitcharan

"He / She who doesn’t gather with His Vicar on Earth, scatters"

 

[crazzeto]

Your rabid opposition to the veneration of Blessed Virgin Mary is only increasing your blindness and you are plunging yourself into darkness,

I pray to Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede for you that the Holy Spirit may enlighten you. May God grant you light!

Pitcharan

"He / She who doesn’t gather with His Vicar on Earth, scatters"

Whoa, I didn’t see that posting previously!!! Moondweller seriously seriously misuderstood what Christ was saying! He wasn’t saying that the Gosple accuratly preached is supposed to divide people, he was merely letting the deciples know that it would divide people.

The Gosple message isn’t one of division, mistrust and misgivings. It should unite us, but because of our tendancy to sin the gosple would sadly divide us.

 

[Doxiemom]

It doesn’t. period.

Only God deserves devotion.

 

[LilyM]

It doesn’t. period.

Only God deserves devotion.

Only God deserves worship, truly, and we give it to no other. However, the Blessed Mother can, as can each of us, be His instruments in helping lead others to salvation. She more so in proportion to her closeness to Him.

 

[FNDRB58]

It doesn’t. period.

Only God deserves devotion.

Only God deserves worship.

With one foot still out please keep an open mind for a moment as I explain. I hope I can help you drag that other foot in:

I don’t think you have a proper understanding of what we Catholics mean by devotion. One may be devoted to one’s wife or husband, correct? One’s father or mother, yes? Well, we are even more devoted to the mother of our Savior! Why wouldn’t one be devoted to their mother in heaven? God is our father. Jesus is our brother. Mary is our mother. She is sinless, said yes to an angel sent by God, she gave birth to our Lord and Savior! Why wouldn’t one devote themselves to a wonderful Mother like that?

So by devotion, we don’t mean worship, after all, if I say I am devoted to my wife or my mother, you don’t think I worship either of them like a God do you?

When we pray to Mary we mean we ask her to pray for us or to hear our prayers and ask Jesus to help us just as I would ask you to pray and ask God to help my dying relative. Would you say no to my request of you? I hope you wouldn’t. I know Protestants pray for each other.

If you have issues with us kneeling when we pray to her then you misunderstand the posture of kneeling. People kneel for many reasons…to kings and queens for example. Just because I bend my joints and lower the height of my torso doesn’t mean I am now in worship mode. We kneel to Mary out of reverence and humility to a heavenly creature who is close to our Lord.

If you die and are in heaven I would kneel and pray to you to ask God to help me. I assure you, I would not be worshiping you.

 

[PRmerger]

It doesn’t. period.

Only God deserves devotion.

Of course we can be devoted to others!

Haven’t you ever said, “My husband is totally devoted to our kids?” or “I’m hopelessly devoted to you, my dear honey!”?

 

[Dorothy]

Today is the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel!

I would like to share some gleanings from a booklet written by a Carmelite hermit that I purchased at the National Shrine of St. Therese of Lisieux recently:

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"In Hebrew Carmel means a garden place or fertile land. Mount Carmel is described as having meadows, wild flowers, and mountain streams. Carmel is a place of fertility, great beauty, and majesty. Fertility is a symbol of grace; Carmel is a symbol of God’s grace.

The temple in Jerusalem prefigures Christ Our Lord, and the Mountain of Carmel prefigures the Virgin Mary, his mother.

She is the new Eden,
the new Garden of God!

That is why Carmelites call her the Beauty of Carmel.

God created the garden of Eden for the first Adam…
He created the Virgin Mary for the second Adam, Christ Our Lord!

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Let those who hear and understand REJOICE!