How does Marian devotion save?

[moondweller]

You didn’t answer my responses with anything, zero substance,

To the contrary. YOU have not yet provided proof for your assertions.

if you are are going to debate the issue, debate the “whole” thing, not just bits and pieces you think you have answers for. Take note, the “I’s” are in bold to prove my point here.

And how about the “log in your own eye:”

I have over two thousand years of understandings behind me, which is the result of relying upon the church

I would ask the same question of yourself:

Come on now, we are a bit inflated with ourselves aren’t we???

What I’ve been trying to get from you (and others) is some Divine proof (revelation) behind your many assertions regarding the alleged mediatorial and intercessory position of Mary in heaven and her supposed role in man’s salvation.

Many assertions, but nothing to actually substantiate them (said while foot is tapping with expectation).

 

[moondweller]

Hate to burst your bubble here, but how many women in the bible have this very thing written about them…well, one, Mary, don’t you think there is a reason it’s written in her case, and her case alone? Nothing written if frivolous, and you yourself, just went beyond what was written down in the first place with that statement, at least obey your own rules if you want to play this game…,

Well, it didn’t require several women to give birth to the Messiah…sheesh! Again, it is said that all generations will call her “blessed,” not “mother” or “queen.” That’s way beyond what is written or revealed.

 

[prodigalson12]

To the contrary. YOU have not yet provided proof for your assertions.And how about the "log in your own eye:"I would ask the same question of yourself:What I’ve been trying to get from you (and others) is some Divine proof (revelation) behind your many assertions regarding the alleged mediatorial and intercessory position of Mary in heaven and her supposed role in man’s salvation.

Many assertions, but nothing to actually substantiate them (said while foot is tapping with expectation).

There have been layers upon layers of scripture pointing out to you, yet you refuse to listen. This is the last thing I’m posting to you from it, if you can’t handle this, you are basically sticking your fingers in your ears and crying out in a childish manner, not at all desiring to hear the truth:

Revelation 12

1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

And to interpret this for you, just in case you have problems wrapping your brain around it. It specifically states “woman” not angel, it specifically states “came down from heaven”, where she resides obviously, not too many women born in heaven far as I know, so she must have been born on this earth first…, it specifically has a “crown on her head” doesn’t that denote royalty of some kind, or do you think they just give crowns to any ol person…

Google up references to Mary in the bible some time, then get back to us here, you are wasting my time., I can tell you the sky is blue all day long, yet you insist it’s green, not at all a reasonable debate, and you come back without addressing my points here because you have no answer for them.

 

[moondweller]

Your soul, it’s not saved forever, you may have entered into a state of salvation, as in, it’s an ongoing thing, at any point in time, you can easily lose this grace:

One is saved BY grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Grace (Divine favor) is the MEANS by which God Himself SAVES (saved is a permanent condition, else the word “saved” has no meaning) the one who has believed.

Galatians 5:4
Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from the Messiah. You have fallen away from grace.

Take note here, they have “fallen away from grace” as in the context, they had it at one point, they no longer have it any more…

Let’s read what it actually says:Gal 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."Who was “severed from Christ?” To whom is Christ no benefit? Answer: Those who are seeking to be justified by law!!! They were NEVER under grace. Justification before God as a Divine gift through faith in Jesus Christ was presented to them by Paul, but instead some were seeking to be justified by law (works). Hence, Christ was of no benefit to them. They were “severed from Christ.” They had fallen from grace in that they turned their backs to the message of Divine grace (favor), and sought instead to be “justified by law.” Here’s the Pauline teaching:Rom 3:20 "…because by the works of law (no definite article) no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sin (not justification - to the contrary: condemnation).

Gal 2:16 "…nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law [no definite article - principle of works) *but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."Those who were seeking to be justified by the principle of law (commandment keeping - works) separated themselves from Christ and fell from God’s exercise of grace toward them through faith in Jesus Christ. IOW, they were unbelievers. In them salvation had never occurred.

 

[poetryforjesus]

Not at all, I refuse to accept his interpretation. What you don’t understand is that I’m a student of the Bible.

Good for you! But Good Fellow is, too!

It is impossible for Mary to share in what Christ suffered. But she did not “share” in His suffering (especially spiritual). That is impossible.

If you say it’s impossible for anyone to share in Christ’s suffering, then how you explain these verses?
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. Colossians 1:24
Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, **if indeed we share in his sufferings **in order that we may also share in his glory. Romans 8:16-17
How can Paul fill up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions if according to you, no one can ever share in Christ’s suffering?
How are Christians supposed to share in His sufferings (exact words in Bible) if you insist that no one can ever do so?

Motherhood is a job. Jesus said to John at the foot of the cross, “behold your mother,” Jesus was severing His earthly relationship with Mary. She was now in John’s care. John was assigned to care for her, she was not assigned to care for John. Women bear children.

You do not know how insulting your statements are to all mothers including your own mother. Do you believe in heaven your mother will no longer be your mother? Even if you might want it that way, prepare to be shocked when you see Jesus still honoring His Mother in heaven!

You said she was not assigned to care for John, but Jesus also said to her, “woman, behold your son!” What does that supposed to mean?

In addition, you insist that Mary just happens to be there at the Cana wedding, she just happens to be there at the foot of the cross, she just happens to be there at the pentacost. So everything about Mary just happens to be so. Do you believe a lot of details are just coincidence in the Bible, then? Catholics do not believe so.

You refuse to even accept the possibility that perhaps these are more than coincidence. If an interpretation is not to your own liking, then you reject it as mere coincidence. Did Christ give you authority to interpret scriptures in this way?

Perhaps the Angel Gabriel just happens to find this little Jewish girl.
Perhaps Mary just happens to say that all generations will call her blessed. Doesn’t really mean anything. What presumption and self-centeredness, Mary!
Perhaps Prophet Simeon just happens to say to Mary, your Son will suffer, and you, too, will suffer for your own sin (doesn’t even make sense if you want to put it that way, but that’s what you want)!
Perhaps Jesus just happens to perform His first miracle on the request of His Mother.
Perhaps Mary just happens to love His son enough to accompany Him on His way to death.
Perhaps Jesus just happens to remember His Mother before dying and entrust her to John.
Perhaps Jesus just happens to give Mary to be John’s mother. Doesn’t John already have his own mother? Why does he need a new one? Confused!
Perhaps Mary just happens to be praying with the disciples when they received the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps Jesus just happens to need a woman who can perform the job of carrying a child.
Perhaps Jesus just happens to have to get away from His Mother in order to grow up and be all He could be.
Perhaps in heaven we all just happen to be really aloof and really really really detached from our mother so we can be the cute little angels God wants us to be.

O well, if you are satisfied with these interpretations, go ahead and enjoy! We Catholics will enjoy what is handed to us by the Church. We will enjoy a heaven where mother is still mother, gratitude is still given where it is due, honor is still given to those who bore us and nourished us.

And when we look at the life of Jesus and Mary and hear the words Jesus says, we will never say, well, that’s just a coincidence!

 

[MariaG]

Well, it didn’t require several women to give birth to the Messiah…sheesh! Again, it is said that all generations will call her “blessed,” not “mother” or “queen.” That’s way beyond what is written or revealed.

If Mary is not Queen of heaven, Christ is not King. As a jew of the davidic line, the mother of the king has the title of queen. Read your old testament. Either Christ is king thereby meaning Mary is queen because she is the God bearer, or one denies the kingship of Christ or one is denying that Mary is the mother of the king.

 

[Kepharocks]

Hey GreatScot, devotion to the blessed virgin Mary is the best way to learn devotion to Christ Jesus. How could this be, you ask? First of all God did not need Mary to complete His eternal goal. The point is; He did in fact use her to do so. So if God chose Mary to bring Himself into the world, then we as believers, who know that God’s way is always perfect, pure, and just, must humble ourselves as Mary did. Who knows the son better than the mother? Especially a mother who spent 30 years with her son. What creature knows the will of God more? Mary’s will can never be anything other than God’s Will. Who is easier to approach, the King or His Queen? So to devote oneself to the creature (Mary) used to bring salvation into the world, is devoting oneself to the same creature God chose. I hope this helps.

 

[anthony022071]

Yes of course. But Jesus didn’t choose Mary. He wasn’t born yet.

Jesus is the Word of God incarnate,and the Word always existed with God.

 

[anthony022071]

As I’ve pointed out in several of my posts, there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of Mary’s mediatorial position in heaven (only Christ’s), not even her bodily assumption into heaven (only Christ’s).

The Church has never gotten its doctrines from scripture alone. It was members of the Church that wrote the books of the New Testament,and it was the Church that determined which writings were to be accepted by the Church. So the authority of the Church is prior to that of scrpture itself.

I test all other teachings about God by the Scriptures. I test the spirits by the Scriptures.I am instructed to be led by the Holy Spirit who indwells me. I trust no other lead. We don’t reject your Marian doctrines simply because they’re “tied in” with you. There’s simply no Scriptural support for them.

More accurately,you test all other teachings about God according to Protestant principles such as sola scriptura,which cannot be justified by the teachings of the Early Church Fathers or by scripture itself. There is no scriptural support for the idea that there must be scriptural support for all doctrines.

No need. I have direct access by prayer to my heavenly Father in the name of the Son. One cannot do better than that!

You can do better than that. You can have the prayers of the one who God chose to be his mother – the mother of grace – and the mother of those who are faithful to the Son.
Her prayers are more powerful than yours.

 

[anthony022071]

One is saved BY grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Grace (Divine favor) is the MEANS by which God Himself SAVES (saved is a permanent condition, else the word “saved” has no meaning) the one who has believed.

Grace is not just divine favor,it is divine assistance for persevering in holiness – that is,in following the commandments,which are works. Grace is not a judicial decision or a mechanism that guarantees that we are saved for eternity. It is the Spirit of Christ in person that leads us to obedience,which merits eternal salvation. The word “saved” does not always mean a permanent condition,because we still have free will to chose to sin or and thus reject God’s grace. Saint Paul warned the gentile Christians in Rome that unless they remained in God’s grace,they would be cut off from salvation like the Jews who rejected Christ.

 

[anthony022071]

Let’s read what it actually says:
Gal 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
Who was “severed from Christ?” To whom is Christ no benefit? Answer: Those who are seeking to be justified by law!!! They were NEVER under grace. Justification before God as a Divine gift through faith in Jesus Christ was presented to them by Paul, but instead some were seeking to be justified by law (works). Hence, Christ was of no benefit to them. They were “severed from Christ.” They had fallen from grace in that they turned their backs to the message of Divine grace (favor), and sought instead to be “justified by law.” Here’s the Pauline teaching:
Rom 3:20 "…because by the works of law (no definite article) no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sin (not justification - to the contrary: condemnation).

Gal 2:16 “…nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law [no definite article - principle of works) but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”
Those who were seeking to be justified by the principle of law (commandment keeping - works) separated themselves from Christ and fell from God’s exercise of grace toward them through faith in Jesus Christ. IOW, they were unbelievers. In them salvation had never occurred.

The question that Paul was addressing was the question of circumcision and the other ritual works of the law,not the moral works. There was no question as to whether it was necessary to obey the moral commandments to be saved. The moral commandments were given for our eternal salvation as well as for our proper behavior. To chose to obey the moral commandments is to chose life. When Jesus was asked by someone what he must do to attain eternal life,he referred him to the moral commandments.
[/quote]

 

[panevino]

Oh, I think you’re very concerned in “winning” your arguments. As for “proving” your arguments, I’ve pointed out many times that objectively none of you have presented any “proof” concerning Mary’s alleged mediatorial and intercessory position in heaven (no Apostolic teaching). It’s simply asserted. You have no “proof” of her bodily assumption into heaven (no eye witnesses). It’s simply asserted.

again, if angels and elders, and souls of martyred saints can discuss lives of those on earth with Jesus, then why can’t his mother.

Angles r able to interceede for harm to children
angels offer prayers of saints befor throne
some of elders sit on seats around the throne judging tribes of israel
and also hold prayers of saints.
Martyred souls seek judgement of those on earth

there is bit going on up there.

now Mary Jesus mother the one who we have an example of seeking something from Jesus for others at Cana, is some how cut out of this ability in heaven.
I don’t agree with your scepticism

 

[Good_Fella]

Turning water into wine really has nothing to do with “the order of divine redemption.” Those are empty words. Divine redemption has to do only with sacrificial blood - the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

Christ’s first miracle is a sign that points toward the shedding of his blood for the remission of sins. It was at the Last Supper our Lord consecrated the wine of the paschal meal and substantially transformed it into his sacred blood, or at least, according to Protestant belief, symbolically associated the wine with his blood (cf. Mt 26:27-29). Jesus received his blood through his mother Mary. So by virtue of her intimate association with him in the economy of salvation, as a secondary cause of the redemption, our Lord granted his mother the prerogative of soliciting him on behalf of the wedding guests, who foreshadow those who worthily attend the wedding feast of the lamb in heaven, because of their righteous acts, having been ransomed by the blood of the lamb (cf. Rev 19: 17-19). It is significant that John does not record Jesus going directly to the chief steward. Being a divine Person and thereby omniscient, our Lord must have known that the wine was gone and had to be replenished. And he certainly did not perform his first miracle out of compassion for the needy as he did in his subsequent miracles without his mother’s intercession. Scripture must be read in a spiritual and allegorical sense in order for one to grasp the fullness of divine truth. And it must be interpreted in light of the sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The early Church Fathers will tell you that.

I told you what that passage (1 Cor. 3:9) actually says. That the Apostles are God’s “fellow workers” and we who believe their message concerning salvation, justification and eternal life are “God’s field, God’s building.” Read it for yourself.I don’t know from where you get this, but it’s blasphemous and heretical. That’s why you’ll never find such teaching in the Scriptures.

St. Paul is admonishing the Christian community in Corinth for it’s jealousy and petty quarrelling among its members. They should not compete with each other in the work of salvation, since it is God who is working through them all as they collaborate with his grace as stewards. They should be careful in how they construct the edifice and cultivate the field, that is the Church which belongs by right to God. The Corinthians must be careful in how they construct this temple (cf.3:17) and build on the foundation of Christ. They will lay a foundation on one other than Christ if they promote a Gospel of bitter quarrelling rather than love (cf. 3:10-11). Jesus said to his disciples: “By this they will know you are my disciples, if you love one another” (Jn 13:35). The apostle Paul believed that faith is active - working through love (Gal 5:6). Charity and self-sacrifice must be added to faith in order for it to be able to justify us.

What’s taught in Scripture is that Jesus’ sacrificial death alone is the “propitiation” (complete satisfaction) for our sins.The work of salvation was Christ’s and Christ’s alone. It began on the cross and He “finished” it there on the cross.

“If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”
Luke 9, 23

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
Galatians 2, 20

Our justification can never be completed unless we are willing to deny ourselves, crucify the flesh, and share in the suffering of our Lord. By imitating the Saviour, we make satisfaction for our sins and the sins of others by right of friendship (de congruo proprie), now that Christ has made satisfaction in strict justice (de condigno proprie). As members of the common royal priesthood we are called to help channel or mediate divine grace for the salvation of others by offering up our self-sacrifices and suffering to God as a sweet oblation in and through Christ. Mary made universal satisfaction by right of her Divine Maternity (the hypostatic order) and intimate association with her Son in the redemption as she stood at the foot of the cross. In this way we make up for what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions (Col 1:24).

To be cont…

 

[prodigalson12]

moondweller where are you??? this is so typical, we get these high and mighty people, they come on strong, even hold their ground on a few threads and posts, then when the tough get going, so do they.

You went AWOL rather then continue the debate…so, very much typical and I always think in these cases, you either are thinking about what was said, or you simply go away with your tail between your legs, I’d rather you stay on board and hash it all out instead. I had a great weekend, spending fellowship with Catholics and Protestants alike, know that I have no agenda in this regard, we worshiped our Lord Jesus both sides of the fence in full, so it’s not like I’m going to just mass and mass alone in an elitist manner, you are more then welcome to attend it any time you want if you are game.

I again go back to prayer over you, it’s not in vain, and it’s simply wanting you on board in the bigger picture with us, as believers and followers of Christ our Lord, the Lord our God, and to keep you with us rather then against us brother.

 

[Good_Fella]

Can you show me where this is taught in the CCC? I want to make note of it.

Please see # 964, 967-970 for a more implicit rendering.

It means “ONE.” ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Are you going to tell me next that “one God” doesn’t mean that God is the “only” God? …

What I’m telling you is that St. Paul intends to say that there is one and the same God for all men, both Jew and Gentile. Certainly we must assume that the apostle believed there is only one true God. But he isn’t emphasizing this revealed truth. And why should he, since he is addressing Timothy? He has another subject in mind. Again, if he had intended to say that there is only one mediator, that being the one who intercedes directly between God and man, and there are no other mediators subordinate to him, but not co-ordinated with him, he would have used the Greek word monos instead of heis. However, the apostle believed and implicitly wrote in his letter to Timothy, without contradicting himself, that there are in fact secondary mediators - we the faithful who offer up prayers, petitions, intercession, thanksgiving, and great personal sacrifices to God for the salvation of souls. We mustn’t isolate and separate v.5 from the whole package: 1 Timothy 2:1-7. Cherry picking single verses and divorcing them from a whole passage is a tragic fallacy of Protestant hermeneutics. :sad_yes:

No we’re not. It’s God who saves upon faith in Christ, men do not save themselves:Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”

It pleased God in his mercy to offer the grace of salvation to all men by no merit of theirs, which we initially receive upon our baptism, by which we are born anew as adoptive children of God. But we can merit for ourselves an eternal reward in heaven by cooperating with divine grace in our lives as long as we persevere to the end in living a life of the Spirit. The apostle is alluding to the regenerative power of the sacrament of baptism by which we are initially sanctified and justified. But justification and sanctification constitute an on-going process which entails an active and continual response on our part until we are finally justified once and for all at the hour of our death.

“All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 10:22

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation – but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die.
Romans 8, 12-13

You yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your* brothers*. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 6, 8-9

Do not be deceived. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Galatians 6, 7-9

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your mind because of your evil behaviour. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
Colossians 1, 21-23

Follow the apostle Paul’s example by listening to what Jesus has to say.

According to the Scriptures, men are saved “by grace through faith.” That’s faith in another Man’s work - the Man Christ Jesus. That’s a passive faith.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord.’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
Matthew 7, 21

The work was DONE by Another - according to the Scriptures…It’s the saved who work, they don’t work to be saved.

A rich young man had faith in Jesus or else he wouldn’t have called our Lord “good teacher”. He believed that Jesus had the words of eternal life, just as our Lord’s apostles did, or else he wouldn’t have asked: “What must I do to obtain eternal life?” But alas, there was something very difficult and unnatural - at the expense of a tremendous personal sacrifice - that Jesus desired he should do to complete his justification, but he couldn’t do in order to merit eternal life. He had faith, but there was something else he lacked and couldn’t put into action: a work of sincere charity that had to be added to his faith for complete justification.

“One thing you lack,” he said. “Go sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad because he had great wealth.
Mark 10, 21-22

PAX :heaven:

 

[ncgolf]

Again, lots and lots and lots of assertions in your post, but no Apostolic or Scriptural teachings to back them up. No Divine revelation. Why is that?

It’s not that it is not there only that you cannot see it.

You forget the “saving” actions of both Abraham in the OT and Mary in the New. It is by their absolute faith that salvation was brought to all of mankind. The Jews revered Abraham in much the same way Catholics revere Mary. Both assented to God’s will thus affecting the course of salvation history. Abraham’s blessedness is the progeny that will come from his faith … in a sense all of us. Mary’s is the motherhood of all mankind … the new Eve.

The parallels between Mary and Abraham are unmistakable … both given tremendous gifts for their acts of faith. It is actually unscriptual to deny the devotion due Mary … why someone would give Mary less honor than God himself gives her is beyond me.

It says all generations will call her “blessed” (by virtue of being chosen to give birth to the Messiah - it’s a Jewish thing.

Not so much God’s choosing but Mary’s assent. You never see the other side of the coin. God freely chooses whom He chooses and those chosen freely choose to participate.

You go beyond what is written.

Conversely you do not see what is written.

 

[diggerdomer]

Originally Posted by moondweller
We are passive recipients of salvation upon faith in Christ…

I thought this was relevant
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Didn’t Jesus ask for the cup to pass from him By gods will - mat 26:39.
Dosent this show that we as saints must struggle to live our faith even at tough times,
while all done under and only available by gods grace, we can fail to do things and know we should of.
So surely this Ongoing faith is not passive, obvioualy the only way we can 1st have faith is by being drawn, but beyond that, holding onto it and remaining obedient is not entirely passivE don’t u agree. Everything we actually do that is gods will is a only by grace, but the things we MIss , and the bad things we do , to me is where faith is illustrated to not be passive.

Yes, Christians are not called to be passive.

 

[GreatScott7]

WOW that’s a lot of posts!! I didn’t know so many people were interested in this sort of thing, and really informed people too- I admit a lot of these posts are going right over my head…

OK, so I admit that I’ve only “read” up to page 8 then skipped to the end, so maybe this has already been covered, but I figured out where the original quote that got me thinking about this was from…
“One day, by the Rosary and Scapular, I will save the world.” Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Dominic
It’s on a couple different sites- here’s the first one that came up in Google…

Anyways, I actually asked an Orthodox priest I met the other day, and I think I’ve had a minor epiphany on the issue.
Mary is the ultimate roll model for Christians, because she lived a pure and sinless life, and was totally obediant to God. Therefore, if you dedicate yourself to her, and act as she did, you will obviously be saved because you’ll be in perfect obedience to God.

That doesn’t totally answers everything, like how specifically the Rosary and Scapular would effect this salvation (the Orthodox priest was having none of it, obvi) but it at least made sense to me as to how devotion to Mary could have a salvatory effect on a person.

But I just want to throw one more thing into the pot regarding the Rosary- specifically the whole Matt 6:7, where Jesus tells folks “do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words.” Some other translations I’ve seen replace ‘babble’ with ‘repetitions’. There’s also Ecclesiastes 5:2-3, which says basically the same thing. When did the tradition of liturgy and of doing sequence prayers get started? I feel as though this was probably a good way to do the whole “pray without ceasing” thing, and I remember the Rosary was symbolic of the 150 Psalms. I don’t know, I’m just curious, and most sites I’ve been looking at take these sorts of things as assumed knowledge.

PS Dear Thing, thanks for the Our-Father only Rosary tip! That sounds supes interesting! However, I’ve run into a tiny glitch- right now I’m googling some variations on the term “our father only rosary” and only pulling up Rosary information. Did you find this prayer on a site? Where? Thanks a lot!

 

[prodigalson12]

WOW that’s a lot of posts!! I didn’t know so many people were interested in this sort of thing, and really informed people too- I admit a lot of these posts are going right over my head…

OK, so I admit that I’ve only “read” up to page 8 then skipped to the end, so maybe this has already been covered, but I figured out where the original quote that got me thinking about this was from…
“One day, by the Rosary and Scapular, I will save the world.” Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Dominic
It’s on a couple different sites- here’s the first one that came up in Google…

Anyways, I actually asked an Orthodox priest I met the other day, and I think I’ve had a minor epiphany on the issue.
Mary is the ultimate roll model for Christians, because she lived a pure and sinless life, and was totally obediant to God. Therefore, if you dedicate yourself to her, and act as she did, you will obviously be saved because you’ll be in perfect obedience to God.

That doesn’t totally answers everything, like how specifically the Rosary and Scapular would effect this salvation (the Orthodox priest was having none of it, obvi) but it at least made sense to me as to how devotion to Mary could have a salvatory effect on a person.

But I just want to throw one more thing into the pot regarding the Rosary- specifically the whole Matt 6:7, where Jesus tells folks “do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words.” Some other translations I’ve seen replace ‘babble’ with ‘repetitions’. There’s also Ecclesiastes 5:2-3, which says basically the same thing. When did the tradition of liturgy and of doing sequence prayers get started? I feel as though this was probably a good way to do the whole “pray without ceasing” thing, and I remember the Rosary was symbolic of the 150 Psalms. I don’t know, I’m just curious, and most sites I’ve been looking at take these sorts of things as assumed knowledge.

PS Dear Thing, thanks for the Our-Father only Rosary tip! That sounds supes interesting! However, I’ve run into a tiny glitch- right now I’m googling some variations on the term “our father only rosary” and only pulling up Rosary information. Did you find this prayer on a site? Where? Thanks a lot!

Umm…don’t get too lost with what we are discussing, Mary is super easy to deal with, she spoon feeds us what we can handle and is super patient with us in the process, before you know it, you have all of these revelations and details that tend to go as you say, over ones head, naturally to you on your own, and it simply gets better and better as time goes on. Not at all expecting someone just getting on board with us to understand at all, so simply accept keeping it simple, study, but know you don’t have to know it all to get her, she’s just awesome in this way. Just think of her as a caring mother and someone to turn to with your questions, problems and in my case, I really needed a Mother now as well as a child, for my own simply was not ever there and one of the reasons I’m so very much endeared to her specifically. Also, she’s the absolute most gently approach to a deeper understanding of our faith, and this is why she’s revered, she also keeps showing up in our lives, and even makes appearances in huge ways for the whole world to see regularly, not at all one to simply overlook or with that Other poster was trying to do, shove her back in the corner., She snagged me back into the faith in a big way, I tend not to remain quiet and conservative about anything, and she knew that, so I very much will continue to speak up on her behalf in any and all places I can, she needs our voices in places she doesn’t have one herself, and this is something all of us that follow our dear spiritual mother should embrace.

Moon, he’s awol guys, so no need to keep responding to his statements, if he’s backing out, one way or the other, doesn’t matter, shouldn’t beat a dead horse, and at best, we should simply post our prayer requests for him if we reference the person. I really wished this would have culminated into at least the person to admit we are making sense, but since he’s not willing to do that, will leave this as simply we have planted seeds for him, or for other readers and leave it at that.

 

[poetryforjesus]

Mary is super easy to deal with, she spoon feeds us what we can handle and is super patient with us in the process, before you know it, you have all of these revelations and details that tend to go as you say, over ones head, naturally to you on your own, and it simply gets better and better as time goes on. Not at all expecting someone just getting on board with us to understand at all, so simply accept keeping it simple, study, but know you don’t have to know it all to get her, she’s just awesome in this way. Just think of her as a caring mother and someone to turn to with your questions, problems and in my case, I really needed a Mother now as well as a child, for my own simply was not ever there and one of the reasons I’m so very much endeared to her specifically. Also, she’s the absolute most gently approach to a deeper understanding of our faith, and this is why she’s revered, she also keeps showing up in our lives, and even makes appearances in huge ways for the whole world to see regularly, not at all one to simply overlook or with that Other poster was trying to do, shove her back in the corner., She snagged me back into the faith in a big way, I tend not to remain quiet and conservative about anything, and she knew that, so I very much will continue to speak up on her behalf in any and all places I can, she needs our voices in places she doesn’t have one herself, and this is something all of us that follow our dear spiritual mother should embrace.

Love, love, love this! ProdigalSon, you put it into words so well. This is something only experience can teach, but available to all who is willing to give Mary a try.