How does Marian devotion save?

[Odell]

One of the greatest semantic misunderstandings is the way Catholics and protestants use the terms salvation, atonement and redemption. Catholics use these words in a larger sense than protestants.
I refuse to use the narrow protestant definition and will spend alittle extra time on semantics. waht we realy mean when we say Mary saves.

What would you think if you encoutered a catholic book that says “one may atone for ones iniquity by faithfulness and love”? I’m sure an avid anti catholic would jump on this and say only christ can atone for our sins!
But what people don’t realize this statement is the language of the bible and if you read it in the bible, I’m sure you would believe it you would except its terminology.

So why the double standard when reading Catholic material?
Two kinds of atonement.
Only Christ can make atonement for us in the sense of eternal consequences.

But this is not the only sense

Prov 16:6: “by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the lord a man avoids evil.” Prov is talking about atonement in a different sense temporal rather than eternal

If the bible talks in a different sense whay can’t Catholics? Is it because Protestants have such a narrow understanding of salvation the bible?
Temporal and eternal salvation

Ex.14:13- and moses said to the people fear not stand firm, and see the salvation of the lord, which he will work for you today; for the Egyptions whom you see today,you shall never see again, the lord will fight for you and you have only to be still.

Luke.1:68-71, Blessed be the lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemd his people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from old, that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us.

Temporal and eternal Saviors

Obad20-21 the exiles Halah who are of the people of Israel shall posses Phoenicia as far as Zarephath; and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in shepharad shall possess the cities of Negeb, saviors shall go up to mount zion to rule mount esau and the kingdom shall be the lords

Rom 11:13-14 Now I (Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the gentiles I magnify my ministry in order to save some of my fellow Jews.

1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself ant to your teaching hold to that for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers

Of course this does not mean that humans bestow salvation the same way christ does by earning it for them. But it does mean we serve as agents.

So yes Mary saves in a different sense I’ve expalined it for you don’t expect every Catholic document to do it for you!

 

[Odell]

I have a question to all. If Paul can save and I can save myself and others according to the bible, then why can’t Mary save?

 

[Ignatius]

I have a question to all. If Paul can save and I can save myself and others according to the bible, then why can’t Mary save?

Paul can’t save you, you can’t save yourself, and devotion to Mary can’t save you. Only God’s grace can save you.

 

[Lycorth]

Anyways, I actually asked an Orthodox priest I met the other day, and I think I’ve had a minor epiphany on the issue.
Mary is the ultimate roll model for Christians, because she lived a pure and sinless life, and was totally obediant to God. Therefore, if you dedicate yourself to her, and act as she did, you will obviously be saved because you’ll be in perfect obedience to God.

Amen - a fine understanding of it. It is how I have always understood the concept of Marian devotion, as being akin to emulation of a hero (or heroine, in this case); she has a number of traits we find deeply desirable and therefore, we seek to emulate those traits, particularly because of what those traits point to.

It is practically first-grade catechism, here; Marian devotion is justifiable, and desirable, because she is indeed the penultimate role model for Christians in terms of the one human being who obeyed God’s will the best. Out of all humans who ever existed, Mary alone obeyed God perfectly, without the slightest selfishness or the slightest restraint. Even the best of the other saints did not manage this, many not even living a Christian life until something or another happened that broke them out of their worldly ways. Mary, however, defied this and defied the Devil in every possible way - God gave her the graces and she acted upon them.

Ave Maria

 

[Odell]

Paul can’t save you, you can’t save yourself, and devotion to Mary can’t save you. Only God’s grace can save you.

Care to address
Rom 11:13-14 Now I (Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the gentiles I magnify my ministry in order to save some of my fellow Jews.

1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself and to your teaching hold to that for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers

 

[clmowry]

Care to address
Rom 11:13-14 Now I (Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the gentiles I magnify my ministry in order to save some of my fellow Jews.

1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself and to your teaching hold to that for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers

Lets see if I can sum up the debate:

“Sometimes words have two meanings.” – Robert Plant, Stairway to Heaven.

Or

“That word, you keep using it. I do not think you know what it means.” - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

Chuck

 

[Odell]

Lets see if I can sum up the debate:

“Sometimes words have two meanings.” – Robert Plant, Stairway to Heaven.

Or

“That word, you keep using it. I do not think you know what it means.” - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

Chuck

Well said!

 

[moondweller]

Good Fella:

Scripture must be read in a spiritual and allegorical sense in order for one to grasp the fullness of divine truth. And it must be interpreted in light of the sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The early Church Fathers will tell you that.

No, the so-called ECFs don’t “tell” us that. There was that school that practiced that hermenutics, like Origen. But the problem with interpreting the Scriptures allegorically (as found out through Oregin) is that the Scriptures must submit to the fertile imaginations of men (as demonstrated by your posts), rather than men submit to the Scriptures - the written Word of God. With the allegorical method there can be as many interpretations of Scripture as there are men, all having a different fantasy of what it means. Like even the modern day Gnostics.

However, we see within Scripture itself that they’re to be understood literally, grammatically & historically (it’s how even Christ interpreted the O.T.). The text/context itself lets the reader know if it is to be understood allegorically; the reader himself has no authority to allegorize (spiritualize) the Scriptures, at whim. By doing so he robs the Scriptures of their Divine authority. You take a contrary stand because the ONLY way you can appeal at all to the Scripture to try to support your Marian doctrines is to allegorize them. Literally those doctrines are not supported anywhere by Scripture.

 

[moondweller]

Kepharocks:

Who knows the son better than the mother? Especially a mother who spent 30 years with her son.

Mary didn’t know Jesus all that well. In Mark’s account we read:Mark 3:21 “*When His own people heard {of} {this,} they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.”*Further on down a little we learn who “His own people” were:”*Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent {word} to Him and called Him. A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."But by Christ’s answer we see that He had rightly begun to distance Himself from physical family ties and began to emphasize the greater value of the spiritual:Mark 3:33-35 "*Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! “For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”*So, no, Mary had much to learn about the Son she bore. This was also demonstrated with the episode in the Temple when He was twelve (Lk. 2:41ff).Luke 2:48-50 "When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You.” And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s {house?}” But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them."And as for the doctrines of salvation, pertaining to the cross, Scripture reveals that these were revealed to His Apostles - not to Mary. Mary no doubt was taught by the Apostles. Scripture does not reveal the supernatural Mary portrayed by Catholicism: The one who assumed bodily into heaven, sits on a heavenly throne and hears the prayers and thoughts of millions at one time and intercedes for them. No such Mary is revealed in the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

prodigalson12:

moondweller where are you??? this is so typical, we get these high and mighty people, they come on strong, even hold their ground on a few threads and posts, then when the tough get going, so do they.

You went AWOL rather then continue the debate…so, very much typical and I always think in these cases, you either are thinking about what was said, or you simply go away with your tail between your legs,

I do have other obligations, Prod. But you’re not at all describing me in the above quote, my friend. If you’ll investigate the history of my posting on this forum you’ll see I’m not the person you delineate. I’ve always presented my arguments, even carrying the thread far out beyond the 1000 limit. And keep in mind, I’m on a Catholic forum which makes it one against many.

You like to taunt, Prod., but what you don’t do is present any objective evidence. You agree with the Catholic teachings concerning the mediatorial/intercessory work of Mary in heaven, but where’s the evidence? You’ve not yet provided me with even the name of one person who testified to have seen Mary bodily assumed into heaven. Nor have you presented even one N.T. Apostolic teaching that supports Mary’s alleged heavenly position. Or any Scriptures that support the idea of Christians devoting themselves to her. You want to continue the debate with me, well, then you need to present some hard evidence (foot still tapping).

 

[moondweller]

ncgolf:

It’s not that it is not there only that you cannot see it.

You forget the “saving” actions of both Abraham in the OT and Mary in the New. It is by their absolute faith that salvation was brought to all of mankind.

I read of the faith response of both Abraham and Mary, but no “saving actions” by them. It is not by either of them that salvation was brought to mankind, but by God Himself through the Person of the Son and His selfless, sacrificial work on the cross, on our behalf, when He bore in His body the sins of the world. What you present is corrupt, if not heretical.

The Jews revered Abraham in much the same way Catholics revere Mary. Both assented to God’s will thus affecting the course of salvation history.

This can be equally said of all who took a personal part in salvation history (Noah, Jacob, David, the prophets, Apostles, etc.). But, no, the Jews never elevated Abraham into heaven and set him there on his own throne, ascribing to him Divine attributes and intercessory powers. Orthodox Jews don’t pray to Abraham.

Abraham’s blessedness is the progeny that will come from his faith … in a sense all of us

No. ONLY those who are “of the faith of Abraham.” Those, who like him, are reckoned righteousness by God, based on faith, apart from works (see Rom. 3:4-5; Gal. 3:7)

Mary’s is the motherhood of all mankind … the new Eve.

Proof?

It is actually unscriptual to deny the devotion due Mary

There’s absolutely no Scriptural support for man’s devotion to Mary. Show me a REAL, literal example of where such devotion is taught or even demonstrated in the Scriptures.

 

[Odell]

they *said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You

."[/indent]But by Christ’s answer we see that He had rightly begun to distance Himself from physical family ties and began to emphasize the greater value of the spiritual:Mark 3:33-35 "*Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! “For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”*s.

To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

 

[diggerdomer]

I have a question to all. If Paul can save and I can save myself and others according to the bible, then why can’t Mary save?

The Catholic Church does not teach that Paul can save, nor that one can save oneself.

 

[diggerdomer]

Care to address
Rom 11:13-14 Now I (Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the gentiles I magnify my ministry in order to save some of my fellow Jews.

1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself and to your teaching hold to that for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers

Paul clearly, always, sees himself as a servant (slave) of Christ. To read those passages as his claiming that HE saves people on his own is really …well…a number of things. Inconsistent with Catholic tradition, limited, biased, selective, irresponsible, etc. I don’t know what else to say.

 

[panevino]

posted by moondweller
…But by Christ’s answer we see that He had rightly begun to distance Himself from physical family ties and began to emphasize the greater value of the spiritual:
Mark 3:33-35 "Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! “For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”…

amazing how people can read the same verse and get something completely different out of it.

when I read above what hits home is
For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother

which highlights the close relationship one arrives into when they believe jesus and follow him.

however you see an illustration of him trying to distance himself from his mother?
…some of his last words while dying on the cross were about her.

i think your interpretation of this verse is clouded.

 

[Odell]

Paul clearly, always, sees himself as a servant (slave) of Christ. To read those passages as his claiming that HE saves people on his own is really …well…a number of things. Inconsistent with Catholic tradition, limited, biased, selective, irresponsible, etc. I don’t know what else to say.

Right and to say Mary saves on her own… Is well… Not Catholic teaching! Mary saves Paul saves I save. Strait out of the bible. Of course this does not mean that humans bestow salvation the same way christ does by earning it for them. But it does mean we serve as agents.

So yes Mary saves in a different sense. Read my first post. This is the context of the bible in which you reconize so why a double standard when reading Catholic teaching? Or my post for that matter?

 

[moondweller]

amazing how people can read the same verse and get something completely different out of it.

when I read above what hits home is
For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother

which highlights the close relationship one arrives into when they believe jesus and follow him.

Yes, when one believes in Christ unto salvation (which is the desire of God for all men), he/she enters into an eternal relationship with Christ which transcends earthly, family ties. The saved (by grace through faith) enter into the eternal household of God (Jn. 1:12). We see the eternal relationship of spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ, but Scripture gives us no “mother” in the eternal state. Motherhood is an earthly function for an earthly purpose (Gen. 1:27-28). In the eternal state we have one Father (God), but no mother.

however you see an illustration of him trying to distance himself from his mother?
…some of his last words while dying on the cross were about her.

Yes, and the last words recorded (and there are very few words, indeed, recorded of Jesus with Mary) were He giving her over to John’s care. At the cross Jesus severed the mother/son relationship completely. With the cross His redemptive work was “finished” and His prayer to the Father would be answered:John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

i think your interpretation of this verse is clouded.

I don’t think it’s clouded at all. Scripture, whether O.T. prophecy or the N.T., nowhere teaches us that the Son came into this world to acquire a mother to take back with Him and assign to her a heavenly throne, exalt her to “Queen of heaven,” and afford to her Divine attributes for the work of heavenly intercession. Such teachings by men aren’t Scripturally “cloudy,” they just plain don’t exist in the Scriptures.

 

[Lycorth]

I don’t think it’s clouded at all. Scripture, whether O.T. prophecy or the N.T., nowhere teaches us that the Son came into this world to acquire a mother to take back with Him and assign to her a heavenly throne, exalt her to “Queen of heaven,” and afford to her Divine attributes for the work of heavenly intercession. Such teachings by men aren’t Scripturally “cloudy,” they just plain don’t exist in the Scriptures.

The Scriptures do not teach that everything we believe in must have a Scriptural basis.

It all comes back to Sola Scriptura.

 

[moondweller]

The Scriptures do not teach that everything we believe in must have a Scriptural basis.

It all comes back to Sola Scriptura.

Luke 24:25-27 “And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.”

Luke 24:32 “They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

Luke 24:44-45 “Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,”"I think Jesus Himself would disagree with you.

 

[Tomster]

The Scriptures do not teach that everything we believe in must have a Scriptural basis.

It all comes back to Sola Scriptura.

It certainly does come back to Sola Scriptura. Unfortunately, for Moondweller, all he has is a book, the Bible, and his own interpretation of it as has been stated to him over and over and over again.

Another point that I have made to him on a number of occassions, a point that he refuses to address by the way, is his total lack of understanding of Incarnational Theology. He has his personal template over certain bible verses to the exclusion of the rest in typical Protestant fashion.