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diggerdomer
Guest
That web site is interesting, but hardly Magisterial authority. I searched via Google but could not find anything official from the Catholic Church to support you claim. Thanks anyway.
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antonabe
Guest
True there are apporoval from the local Bishops and consequently by the Vatican in one Category.However these letters of approval from the Vatican are not shown but these should not be difficult to obtain.I will seach for it myself and send it to you,
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antonabe
Guest
Regarding approvals of Marian apparitions please check the Website www.vatican.va the offficial website of the Holy See.I read the report about Lourdes and I am sure you could obtain all the information you need.
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lottetj
Guest
It is very dangerous to say “No Mary, no Jesus,” “Know Mary, know Jesus.” Of course Mary was the mother of Jesus, actually, Marian was the mother of Jesus. She was not born without sin - the church gave her the position in heaven in 1952, but God never did.
No person has been received into heaven at this stage - the 1st/2nd resurrection, then, we will join with all those that have gone to the grave. The dead remain dead at this stage.
(John 3:13)
Catholic Church would be a great asset to the religious community - I have seen the most amazing Adoration and Praise for Our Lord JESUS. However, we must never supersede Mary over Jesus. And the Church needs to come back pre-Augustine to truly be following the Church of God.
I welcome any comments on that that I have written. I became a CHRISTIAN Catholic overa a year ago, but struggle with things that are contrary to the Word of God.
God bless You all
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clmowry
Guest
Define “contrary to the Word of God.”
Do you mean “something is explicitly contradicted by scripture.”
or
“If I can’t find something explicitly in scripture so it must not be true.”
Chuck
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lottetj
Guest
I think the question here is not whether it is explicity there in the bible but whether it has been added into the bible when it is clear that the Assumption could not have taken place. As in John’s gospel it does say that only Jesus has ascended into heaven, and we await the second resurrection… I do think that the Church’s traditions can be considered, but if they are contradict what has been written, then how do we measure the truth?
So my question is “Are Catholics expected to believe in something that the Church tells it to?”
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clmowry
Guest
Yes, we are.
If you disagree with Catholic teaching then you should be doing the necessary research to understand why your understanding on that belief is wrong and not the other way around.
On this particular issue: “Ascension” and “Assumption” are not the same thing.
Jesus’ Ascension was done of his own power, and it is therefore something only He could do.
Mary was brought bodily up into heaven by God. The same thing seems to be true of Enoch. In theory it could have happened to others of which we are unaware. (I would speculate perhaps Moses and Elijah?)
To what part of John’s Gospel are you referring when you say that he teaches that “only” Christ has entered bodily into heaven?
Chuck
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Tomster
Guest
In the honor we pay to Mary, and in the doctrine that theologians have built up about her person and her privileges, what is of first importance is not this child of the human race herself, but God.
Whenever anyone piously confesses - on the authority of Revelation - that Mary, daughter of David, was chosen by God to be God’s Mother, i.e., Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, he will be obliged to confess at the same time that God effected the ineffably lofty elevation of this Jewish maiden with all the precautions and in the manner required by the importance of the matter itself.
If this child of man was really raised to be the Mother of God’s Son, and so was united with him by the ties of blood, she was brought into the intimate life of the Blessed Trinity. Consequently, the importance of the matter requires that no spot, were it ever so slight, should ever stain the unspeakable radiance of divine glory.
With this the divine motherhood becomes Mary’s ultimate and highest end, towards which converge all the graces and privileges that God prepared for her in time and in eternity. Everything was to serve to effect this raising to the highest heavens in the worthiest way possible. This end becomes the measure of all that there is to say about Mary and in her honor. Again, the most important part is always the unblemished spotlessness of divine honor.
cont.
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Tomster
Guest
Thus, the first thing that can be reasonbly demanded is that this maiden, who is to be raised to be Mother of God, should possess the highest possible human integrity and perfection. There is a perfection destined for man by God’s autonomous goodness which man cannot attain, starting from his natural position and with the powers naturally at his disposal. It is a perfection that can be achieved only by the perfecting of man’s highest spiritual faculties, reason and will, in the contemplation and enjoyment of the divine Being itself. As God has provided this for human beings, the splendor of the divine motherhood - precisely because God’s honor is at stake - demands that God’s Mother must possess this supernatural human integrity and perfection, by acquiring the highest attainable degree of heavenly completeness.
But the economy of salvation with which we are dealing is: that ALL our salvation is through Christ our Lord. And this means, not only that Jesus merited this salvation for us by his suffering and death, but also that this salvationis apportioned to each of us personally, according to the measure of Christ. For God has predestined us ’ to be moulded into the image of his Son, who is thus to become the eldest-born among many brothers’ (Romans 8:29). And this also means that the more we resemble Christ the greater the grace of salvation given to us will be. Consequently, she who has been called to reach the highest measure of heavenly perfection must also acquire the greatest possible conformity to Jesus. And, as he could enter into his glory by suffering only (Luke 24:26), and by it saving his people from their sins (Matthew 1:2), and as he unmasked and openly exposed the dominations and powers, and conquered them by the Cross (Col. 2:15), therefore she too, who was to be in the highest degree conformed to him so as to benefit in the highest degree by the salvation he acquired, also ‘united with him by an indissoluble and extremely close bond, was, with him and through him, to practise eternal hostility to the poisonous serpent and to triumph fully over it’. (Ineffabilis Deus).
cont.
But the economy of salvation with which we are dealing is: that ALL our salvation is through Christ our Lord. And this means, not only that Jesus merited this salvation for us by his suffering and death, but also that this salvationis apportioned to each of us personally, according to the measure of Christ. For God has predestined us ’ to be moulded into the image of his Son, who is thus to become the eldest-born among many brothers’ (Romans 8:29). And this also means that the more we resemble Christ the greater the grace of salvation given to us will be. Consequently, she who has been called to reach the highest measure of heavenly perfection must also acquire the greatest possible conformity to Jesus. And, as he could enter into his glory by suffering only (Luke 24:26), and by it saving his people from their sins (Matthew 1:2), and as he unmasked and openly exposed the dominations and powers, and conquered them by the Cross (Col. 2:15), therefore she too, who was to be in the highest degree conformed to him so as to benefit in the highest degree by the salvation he acquired, also ‘united with him by an indissoluble and extremely close bond, was, with him and through him, to practise eternal hostility to the poisonous serpent and to triumph fully over it’. (Ineffabilis Deus).
cont.
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Dorothy
Guest
Do you mean when Mary said “How can this be since I do not know man?”
That was not an objection. Mary, had a right to ask that question, as she was betrothed to Joseph, and knew she was to remain a virgin even after their marriage. Even though the Scripture is not explicit, it is implicit that she is perpetual virgin. , It is a dogma of the Church that she is ever-virgin. It is in the Creed that we say at Mass. In fact, why should she even ask “How can this be since I do not know man”, if she intended to live a married life as others do.
Many will disagree who do not accept the Teaching Authority of the Church. Catholics believe the Church cannot err on matters of faith and doctrine. So, there we are.
I believe Jesus’ promise and in the teachings and Traditions (capital “T”) of the Church.
Excellent Bible exegetes have searched Scripture and can refute the argument that Jesus had brothers and sisters. There is much more, more, and more about Our Blessed Mother, a creature like us, but highly privileged.
That can be read about in Catholic Answers, just do a search for “perpetual virginity of Mary.”
Peace and blessings to all…
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Tomster
Guest
Thus in the economy of salvation, the divine motherhood itself to which Mary, daughter of David, was called, requires her to be associated with her Son in his full triumph over the devil. Her predestination to heavenly blessedness and her perfect resemblance to Jesus are prerequisites for her selection as the Mother of God’s Son.
But this full triumph over Satan - for it is not just an eventual one! - demands two things: first, that no single victory for Satan’s side can be shown; and secondly, that Satan is totally defeated.
And so, from the deepest well of gifts of God’s grace, which consists in the choice of Mary as Mother of God, there flow for her all the privileges she ever received, via her triumph over Satan.
It must be impossible to point to anything in her that could in any way be interpreted as a victory for Satan. For that would certainly spoil her complete triumph over him and water it down to an eventual victory, such as ours will be. Therefore there are neither sins nor penalties for sins to be found in her, for, as the Book of Wisdom testifies, not only sin itself, but even punishment for sin, is a victory for (Wisdom 2:24).
cont.
But this full triumph over Satan - for it is not just an eventual one! - demands two things: first, that no single victory for Satan’s side can be shown; and secondly, that Satan is totally defeated.
And so, from the deepest well of gifts of God’s grace, which consists in the choice of Mary as Mother of God, there flow for her all the privileges she ever received, via her triumph over Satan.
It must be impossible to point to anything in her that could in any way be interpreted as a victory for Satan. For that would certainly spoil her complete triumph over him and water it down to an eventual victory, such as ours will be. Therefore there are neither sins nor penalties for sins to be found in her, for, as the Book of Wisdom testifies, not only sin itself, but even punishment for sin, is a victory for (Wisdom 2:24).
cont.
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Tomster
Guest
In Mary, therefore, no original sin, but immaculate conception; no personal sin, not even one venial sin, but inestimable holiness of life and aspirations. In her, therefore, no evil concupiscence rooted in sin and leading to sin; no pains at childbirth, no mastery of man over her with all it entails, but virginity before, during and after parturition; therefore also a virgin spouse, to watch over her and her Child; no corruption after death, but a jubilant ascension to God, of both body and soul.
But she, the handmaid of the Lord, was also obliged to share with Jesus, the Servant of God, in Satan’s defeat. In unspeakable grief and indescribable suffering, she had with Jesus to tear her people from the grasp of Satan and lead them back to the liberty of the children of God. Our Lady of Sorrows had to bear in closest union with the Man of Sorrows the redemptive suffering by which we are freed from our sins and have our debt of punishment remitted, and are reconciled with God, to be agained favored with his gifts.
Holy Scripture says so clearly of the Lord our God: he orders everything graciously (Wisdom 8:1). There are no fits and starts, and therefore in Mary’s case no sudden overwhelming with all sorts of gifts, but these countless divine gifts, that have made her what she is, form a beautiful and perfectly harmonious whole.
But she, the handmaid of the Lord, was also obliged to share with Jesus, the Servant of God, in Satan’s defeat. In unspeakable grief and indescribable suffering, she had with Jesus to tear her people from the grasp of Satan and lead them back to the liberty of the children of God. Our Lady of Sorrows had to bear in closest union with the Man of Sorrows the redemptive suffering by which we are freed from our sins and have our debt of punishment remitted, and are reconciled with God, to be agained favored with his gifts.
Holy Scripture says so clearly of the Lord our God: he orders everything graciously (Wisdom 8:1). There are no fits and starts, and therefore in Mary’s case no sudden overwhelming with all sorts of gifts, but these countless divine gifts, that have made her what she is, form a beautiful and perfectly harmonious whole.
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Prometheum_x
Guest
God can do whatever he wants. Mary was necessary for salvation only because God chose to use her. Jesus could have simply appeared on the earth. He could have been born of a sinful woman.
Mary can assist in the ongoing process of our salvation only to the extent that she is a cooperator with the saving work of Jesus. She cannot know our prayers by her own power – rather, as part of the communion of saints, the Body of Christ, she shares in the fellowship of that same Holy Spirit who dwells in the heart of each Christian, praying with and for them. It is he who enables this communication between the saints on earth and the saints in heaven. Can we go straight to Jesus? Certainly. But it is in God’s plan to involve all of us as much as possible in the work of salvation, because we are one body in Christ, and it is fitting for us to help each other.
It is the same as with the work of evangelization – Jesus could speak directly to each person, or he could send an angel, but most of the time, he asks us to be his witnesses. Why? I don’t really know. I think it is related to the communion of saints/one body idea I referred to above, but nevertheless, that’s the way it is. I don’t see the scandal in saying that my salvation is in some part dependent on Mary when the salvation of my neighbor may be in some part dependent on me.
Mary can assist in the ongoing process of our salvation only to the extent that she is a cooperator with the saving work of Jesus. She cannot know our prayers by her own power – rather, as part of the communion of saints, the Body of Christ, she shares in the fellowship of that same Holy Spirit who dwells in the heart of each Christian, praying with and for them. It is he who enables this communication between the saints on earth and the saints in heaven. Can we go straight to Jesus? Certainly. But it is in God’s plan to involve all of us as much as possible in the work of salvation, because we are one body in Christ, and it is fitting for us to help each other.
It is the same as with the work of evangelization – Jesus could speak directly to each person, or he could send an angel, but most of the time, he asks us to be his witnesses. Why? I don’t really know. I think it is related to the communion of saints/one body idea I referred to above, but nevertheless, that’s the way it is. I don’t see the scandal in saying that my salvation is in some part dependent on Mary when the salvation of my neighbor may be in some part dependent on me.
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PJM
Guest
***Without exception ALL SALVATION is through Jesus Christ. The fact that He permits us to PRAY THROUGH HER to Him, is evidence of christ love for is Blessed Mother.
With God it’s not about ego; not about protected turff; it’s about saving souls. Mary can and does play an active role, due to merits of Her Son, in this efort***.
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nuntym
Guest
***Without exception ALL SALVATION is through Jesus Christ. The fact that He permits us to PRAY THROUGH HER to Him, is evidence of christ love for is Blessed Mother.
With God it’s not about ego; not about protected turff; it’s about saving souls. Mary can and does play an active role, due to merits of Her Son, in this efort***.
:clapping:
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Lycorth
Guest
It’s not erroneous but rather common sense.
Thankfully, God doesn’t have the ego problem Protestants ascribe to Him.
Agreed.
Of course if Christ returned to Heaven without dying then no one would be saved. No one is that stupid to believe that just by being born Christ’s salvific work was finished.
The teaching of the Church. As Christ said, He who hears you hears Me who sent you - we assent to infallible Church doctrine and thus assent to Christ’s teaching on the matter.
False assumption. I am very accustomed to non-Catholics challenging Catholic teaching and have spent a considerable amount of my life studying rebuttals to anti-Catholic polemics.
Yes you have.
I have not slandered you, merely rebuked your false doctrines. Cease your slander against the Church and the Blessed Mother and give up this argument which you clearly will not win.
Yes, much like Sola Scriptura does. It’s been around for quite some time, which is why you cannot understand us.
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moondweller
Guest
This was said to the Apostles, not your church.
I have not.
I am not trying to win. I have not slandered your church or Mary. You said I said things which I did not. That, my friend is bearing false witness. In fact, it’s a 10 Commandment violation, and in Catholicism this registers as a “mortal” sin. It’s time you headed for the booth. You don’t want to die with that on our soul.
P.S. It is wrong to say things about Mary (or anyone) that are not true, even if they’re considered “good” things.
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PJM
Guest
Friend, in a real sense the Apostles were “the Church” when the statement was made
**Eph. 2:19 **So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, SINGULAR] ]built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
Love and prayers,
M
moondweller
Guest
, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”Friend, in a real sense the Apostles were “the Church” when the statement was made
**Eph. 2:19 **So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, SINGULAR] ]built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone
Love and prayers,Then based on this logic whatever ANY believer says is to be considered Christ’s words and must be rendered Divine truth.
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nuntym
Guest
+AJPM+
Not ANY believer, but those whose authority of the Apostles were given, since, as you noted, those words of Jesus were addressed to the Apostles.Then based on this logic whatever ANY believer says is to be considered Christ’s words and must be rendered Divine truth.
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