P
PRmerger
Guest
Why wouldn’t he be able to have marital relations with her while she was pregnant?
- Status
P
Pitcharan
Guest
There are three kinds of marital relations:
*]Born of human lust (sinful sexual urge)
*]Born of human desire to have a child
*]Born of God’s will
Now you may draw your own conclusion on what is communicated by the inspired writer.
L
LilyM
Guest
Exactly. By moondweller’s logic, it was only important that Mary be virgin when Christ was conceived, so why wait until He was born if it didn’t matter any more?Why wouldn’t he be able to have marital relations with her while she was pregnant?
F
Fair_Lady
Guest
Verses 22 & 23 of Matthew 1 (see below) hold the answer. If Joseph would have had marital relations with Mary while she was pregnant, prophecy would not have been fulfilled.Why wouldn’t he be able to have marital relations with her while she was pregnant?
Matthew 1:
"18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
**22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.**
24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."
P
PRmerger
Guest
I don’t see anything that those verses which explain why Mary and Joseph could not have relations while she was pregnant.
Why would God command this?
Now, of course the Catholic paradigm has an explanation…
But I’m confused as to what your explanation is.
M
moondweller
Guest
My goodness man, it’s right there:22 "*Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,I don’t see anything that those verses which explain why Mary and Joseph could not have relations while she was pregnant.
Why would God command this?
Now, of course the Catholic paradigm has an explanation…
But I’m confused as to what your explanation is.
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."*She was to be a virgin from the time of conception through the time of birth. There was nothing in the prophetic Scriptures that stated she would be a perpetual virgin. Men have made her so, but not the Word of God.
L
Lycorth
Guest
Like I said - sophistry.
A
antonabe
Guest
There is nothing in Scripture which says that Joseph had marrital relations with Our Lady.Sex is the be all and end all of modern society and the people cannot understand how she could remain a virgin till her death. A large of religous Nuns taking a vow of Chastity remain in this state all their life.Whatever the persons of assumed eminence so called intellectuals say in this thread in my view God Chose Our Lady to bring our Lord Jesus into this world and her body would have be sacrficed and consecrated to God and in my view she was a perpetual Virgin.She was born free of original Sin and she was special. as she forth the Son of God into this world.Josepth had a role to play which the people without faith will not undestand.I suppose that is the reason Jesus said if you want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven you have to be like little children.You cannot debate and dissect everthing in the Catholic and Christian beliefs.
M
moondweller
Guest
The faith, according to the Scriptures, is not about the virgin who brought forth a Son, but about the Son she brought forth. The O.T. was the anticipation of Him. The Gospel accounts the revelation of Him. The Book of Acts the propagation of Him. The Epistles the explanation of Him. The Book of Revelation the consummation of Him. The Scriptures speak nothing of an exalted, perpetual virgin. Such a concept within the faith is foreign to the Scriptures.
F
Fair_Lady
Guest
If they would have had relations, then Jesus would not have been born of a virgin as prophecied.
This way there is no doubt that God was the father of Jesus. There was no earthly biological father possible.
A
antonabe
Guest
According to scripture Luke the angel Gabriel said “Greetings favoured woman” and further "God has decided to Bless You"and Mary says "How can I have a baby I am a virgin"She has not been exalted by Man but by God accoding to scripture.If God says you are a favoured woman through the angel she is cetainly exalted.
P
PRmerger
Guest
[SIGN1]So why would God command that Joseph not have relations with Mary while she was pregnant?
[/SIGN1]I get that you believe it was to fulfill a prophecy.
But it seems strange that you think the prophecy means that she had to be a virgin to give birth. Why?
Isn’t it your position that it would be unnatural to be married and not have relations?***
Clearly Christianity understands that saying she was a virgin while she **conceived **is important. But why do you stress that she had to be a virgin until she gave birth? But not after?
What a very peculiar thing to believe!
P
PRmerger
Guest
Does the Scripture say “born of a virgin”? :dts:
Now, clearly, the CC states she was a virgin.
But in your paradigm, what tells you that Joseph and she did not have marital relations while pregnant–just like a normal couple would? (I think I’ve heard that objection to Catholic teaching before–that it wouldn’t have been a normal marriage if they didn’t have relations. So wouldn’t they have HAD to had relations while pregnant, like NORMAL couples do?)
Didn’t everyone already know Joseph wasn’t the father beforehand? Hence his desire to divorce her?
L
Lycorth
Guest
So is Sola Scriptura, but yet you fail to admit it.
L
LilyM
Guest
If I may jump in as somewhat of a Devil’s Advocate, Joseph’s desire to divorce Mary was because HE knew he wasn’t the father of her child. It has no bearing on anyone else’s knowledge or lack thereof.Didn’t everyone already know Joseph wasn’t the father beforehand? Hence his desire to divorce her?
Of course IF ‘everyone’ knew she was pregnant they likely would’ve assumed Joseph was the father as they were already betrothed, but that would be no consolation to Joseph, since he knew he wasn’t the father.
Scripture says she was ‘found to be with child’. But whether this meant ‘everyone’ knew she was pregnant, or she and Joseph alone, or perhaps only her parents as well, Scripture doesn’t reveal.
Although a ‘private’ or ‘quiet’ divorce such as Joseph was contemplating would, I think, have been impossible if all of Nazareth knew of Mary’s condition and that Joseph wasn’t the father.
M
moondweller
Guest
She was favored because among all Jewish women she was the one chosen to bear the Messiah. The very reason that from then on all generations counted her “blessed” (Lk. 1:48b). By such a blessing God didn’t “exalt” her (as men have), but rather Mary herself said:“My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Lk. 1:46-47).She would eventually learn that the One she bore would be the One through whom God would save her, “by grace through faith.”
P
PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
And Joseph not having relations with Mary UNTIL she bore Jesus would not have proved anything to the Jewish community. For how would he have demonstrated this?
Clearly the inspired writer’s point was to say that Mary conceived Jesus through the Holy Spirit, not with Joseph. Not that she remained a virgin through the birth–for what purpose would that achieve?
M
moondweller
Guest
Why is it strange?23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."Notice it’s a virgin that shall be with child and it’s a virgin that brings forth a son. She’s a virgin at conception and still a virgin at the time of birth.[SIGN1]So why would God command that Joseph not have relations with Mary while she was pregnant?
I get that you believe it was to fulfill a prophecy.
But it seems strange that you think the prophecy means that she had to be a virgin to give birth. Why?
I don’t stress it. The Scriptures do. And to confirm this we read that Joseph kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a son (Matt. 1:25).
But what’s strange is that men have made her a perpetual virgin - not the Scriptures. The Scriptures limit her virginity to the birth of the Christ Child. Then she and Joseph enter into a normal marital relationship and God blesses them with several other children - according to the Scriptures.
PR, what purpose would it serve for her to remain a virgin perpetually?
P
PRmerger
Guest
As with all Marian doctrines, they affirm and enlighten our understanding of Christ and his divinity.
P
PRmerger
Guest
You don’t think it’s strange for a married man not to have sex with his pregnant wife? What kind of marriage is this anyway, that you’re proposing?
Of course, if you’re a Catholic you don’t have to answer this question. Only those who believe that Joseph had relations with Mary would have to explain why it would be wrong to have sex with her while pregnant, but not afterwards.
- Status