How does Marian devotion save?

[moondweller]

All this breath of God being mentioned in the Bible is useless if you do not know the Bible is infallible or that it is the word of God in the first place.

So my question to you is what is the basis for you to claim that the Bible is the word of God? I believe its the word of God because I believe TRADITION and the Catholic Church made an infallible construction of the Bible. You don’t believe tradition or infallibility and have a weird concept that ‘‘Bible is the only thing I believe’’. So my dear friend, please care to explain what is your grounding for believing in the Bible as the word of God.

Listen, any doctrinal errors are called heresies. I don’t know what doctrinal history you studied. The difference with protestants is that Protestants have no basis to say one interpretation is wrong over the other. No one can claim what is the truth. All you have is a nice little consensus and break-away model going. Christ on the other hand has given the Church infallibility through the Pope and the magisterium to pronounce what is TRUTH.

TRUTH is not a democracy or up for discussion. What kind of truth do you believe in? Has the Protestant church decided that TRUTH IS SUBJECTIVE now? Truth absolute whether you have issues with it or not. We encourage freedom of dialogue BUT a heresy is a heresy. You seem to have a subjective view of TRUTH which is not compatible with Christianity or any of the Theistic religions I know.

So please, don’t even compare the failed state of the Protestant model to that of the Catholic church. Do keep in mind that Protestant doctrine is just another heresy/doctrinal error just like all the other ‘‘doctrinal conflicts’’ you referred to.

What on earth is that suppossed to mean? The RC has only one truth. There are no multiple versions. I think you are confusing it with the Protestant church here

What? No church hierarchy or POPE says he is not accountable to God. I will just take this as an emotionally charged argument by you.

Don’t even get me started on Faith You can’t even justify why you believe the bible yet you want claim justification from faith alone. I suggest you first start by justifying why you believe the Bible is the word of God. Then we can talk more about this Faith issue.

Its not what I was taught to believe. It is common sense. If Christ established a church where every Tom and Dick can make his own interpretation, then you are certainly mistaken. Christ established a church that followed ONE ABSOLUTE truth. Not some subjective relativism.

Secondly, if no one was infallible, we wouldn’t know what the word of God was to begin with. How can someone put together the Bible without error from all the books and forgeries available? If the Catholic Church was never infallible, the Protestant church would be in big big trouble because they go from SCRIPTURE ALONE while the SCRIPTURE could be a total ERROR!

So my friend, I don’t think you have a case here. If you do reply, please remember to answer my question clearly as to ‘‘What is the basis for you to believe that Bible is the word of God’’. If not, you are just avoiding the question and it would appear that you aren’t even sure as to why your main source of knowledge is correct

God Bless

Just because you dismiss the content of my posts doesn’t mean I didn’t answer your questions. Remember the Pharisees in John chapter nine who kept questioning the blind man on how he received his sight? It didn’t matter what he told them, or how often, they simply refused to believe it. Did their refusal to believe change anything?

 

[moondweller]

So on what grounds do you believe that what scripture claims for itself is true?

I already told you.

We’re not questioning that scripture is inspired by God or that God is always true,we’re questioning the grounds for your own belief in what scripture says.

Then you’re questioning the Scriptures.

Scripture needs trustworthy witnesses to its truth for it to be acceptable to human reason,

So the Scriptures are subordinate to human reason?

just as Jesus had a trustworthy witness in John the Baptist.

And still many refused to believe.

 

[ddarko]

Just because you dismiss the content of my posts doesn’t mean I didn’t answer your questions. Remember the Pharisees in John chapter nine who kept questioning the blind man on how he received his sight? It didn’t matter what he told them, or how often, they simply refused to believe it. Did their refusal to believe change anything?

Ok all I heard so far was that ‘‘Bible says it is the word of God’’ or some variation of it to justify your belief in the Bible. That is CIRCULAR logic. I am being reasonable here. You are not. So please, answer the question. At least refer me to the Post.

Otherwise with all due respect, I think you are just escaping the question.

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

Can you show me in the Koran where it states that it is theopneustos (God-breathed)?

1. The Cattle chapter( Surat Al-An’am) 19:" this Quran has been revealed to me"
2. The Cave chapter (Surat Al-Kahf):" It has been inspired to me"
3. The Star chapter (Surat An-Najm) “it is only an Inspiration that is inspired.”

But, sheesh, moon, even if it says it’s inspired, does that mean it’s inspired?

You simply cannot look at verses and decide what’s* theopneustos *and what’s not. You needed the CC to do that for you.

Thus, how would you know whether each of these verses are from God or from man? Can you tell, moon, which is from Scripture and which is not, just by reading them?

Let’s see you do your best from your memory of Scripture–which ones are in the Bible and which ones aren’t–and is there anything in them that tells you, a Believer, what’s inspired and what’s not?

• All generations shall call me blessed!
• O you who believe! Remember God’s favor to you when there came against you forces, so We sent against them a strong wind and forces which you did not see, and God is Ever- Seeing what you do.
• My breath is offensive to my wife.
• For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
• Moreover, what I have now said in regard to abstaining from wanton looks should be carefully observed, with due love for the persons and hatred of the sin, in observing, forbidding, reporting, reproving, and punishing of all other fault.
• Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror," declares the LORD.
• And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones.

OR~

Do you have to rely on the CC to tell you which of those sayings are inspired and what’s not?

Because, clearly, there’s nothing in the essence of any of those texts which tell you something is inspired and what’s not!!

 

[moondweller]

1. The Cattle chapter( Surat Al-An’am) 19:" this Quran has been revealed to me"
2. The Cave chapter (Surat Al-Kahf):" It has been inspired to me"
3. The Star chapter (Surat An-Najm) “it is only an Inspiration that is inspired.”

But, sheesh, moon, even if it says it’s inspired, does that mean it’s inspired?

Where does the Koran say that all of the Koran is “theopneustos” (God-breathed)?

 

[moondweller]

Ok all I heard so far was that ‘‘Bible says it is the word of God’’ or some variation of it to justify your belief in the Bible. That is CIRCULAR logic. I am being reasonable here. You are not. So please, answer the question. At least refer me to the Post.

Otherwise with all due respect, I think you are just escaping the question.

God Bless

Or are you merely escaping the answer, like those in John chapter nine?

 

[PRmerger]

Where does the Koran say that all of the Koran is “theopneustos” (God-breathed)?

Again, moon, if it said it is, does that mean it is?

Yes, or no?

 

[PRmerger]

Again, moon, if it said it is, does that mean it is?

Yes, or no?

Ya know, moon, the way this discussion is heading I really can’t resist what I’m going to type right now:

I hearby declare that all of the Catholics’ writings on the CAFs to be thepneustos!

There!

 

[moondweller]

What? No church hierarchy or POPE says he is not accountable to God. I will just take this as an emotionally charged argument by you.

Why would that which is infallible need to be accountable to anyone? There is no need for accountability where there is infallibility. If one is accountable then by definition there is room for error. But in infallibility there’s no error, hence, no accountability required to (A)anyone.

 

[moondweller]

Again, moon, if it said it is, does that mean it is?

Yes, or no?

You’re questioning God’s Word regarding God’s Word?

 

[kepha1]

Paul is not a part of Scripture. But God used Paul to write God-breathed Scripture.

I don’t doubt Paul wrote God-breathed Scripture, but I am not sure about something…maybe you can help me out. Did Paul know his letters to Timothy were God-breathed Scripture, or was Paul refering to the Old Testament Scripture? Is Paul using the term “Scripture” to refer to the Bible that would not be compiled for another 350 years? If Paul is using the term “Scripture” to encompass the Old and New Testament whether all the books existed or not, then isn’t Paul being prophetic by refering to future books (as God-breathed Scripture?)? And If Paul is being prophetic in his usage of the term “Scripture”, is there any place in Scripture where Paul makes reference to future books? You see md, I’ve heard the argument that Paul was refering to Scriptures in the general sense that would include all Bible books not yet written, but it makes no sense to me. After all, Paul refered to the scriptures that Timothy learned as a child. Hmm… do you believe that Timothy had a copy of the New Testament when he was a child?

What was written is theopneustos, not the writer.I believe in the One who “breathed” it into existence. Maybe that’s where we differ?

I don’t know. Adam was God-breathed. So were the Apostles when Jesus gave them the authority to forgive sins. More than Scriptures are God-breathed. We don’t differ with that, do we?

 

[ddarko]

Or are you merely escaping the answer, like those in John chapter nine?

What exactly is your answer to my question? Please have the courtesy to refer me to a post or restate it. I hate to say this but you are acting like a child.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Why would that which is infallible need to be accountable to anyone? There is no need for accountability where there is infallibility. If one is accountable then by definition there is room for error. But in infallibility there’s no error, hence, no accountability required to (A)anyone.

There is obviously no room for error. But it is because it is from God. This only applies to teachings. If a teaching is from God via the Holy Spirit, there is no need to be held accountable. God does not need to hold himself accountable. What are you seriously talking about by saying the pope is not accountable?

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

You’re questioning God’s Word regarding God’s Word?

LOL!

Just answer, please!

Actually, I’m going to go ahead and answer for you, as your history tells us that you won’t answer questions which humble you.

You are correct, PR, just because something says it’s theopneustos does not make it theopneustos. There truly is no way for me to look at a text and tell if it’s inspired. I must look to the Catholic Church to see what’s inspired.

 

[moondweller]

I don’t doubt Paul wrote God-breathed Scripture, but I am not sure about something…maybe you can help me out. Did Paul know his letters to Timothy were God-breathed Scripture, or was Paul refering to the Old Testament Scripture? Is Paul using the term “Scripture” to refer to the Bible that would not be compiled for another 350 years? If Paul is using the term “Scripture” to encompass the Old and New Testament whether all the books existed or not, then isn’t Paul being prophetic by refering to future books (as God-breathed Scripture?)?I can’t speak for Paul, but Peter certainly recognized Paul’s writing as Scripture (and long before any Council convened, 2 Pet. 3:14-16). Paul is not being prophetic. He simply states the fact, via the Holy Spirit, that ALL Scripture is theopneustos. Would not God Himself who breathed that Scripture know what Scriptures He would breathe?

I don’t know. Adam was God-breathed. So were the Apostles when Jesus gave them the authority to forgive sins. More than Scriptures are God-breathed. We don’t differ with that, do we?

 

[moondweller]

LOL!

Just answer, please!

Actually, I’m going to go ahead and answer for you, as your history tells us that you won’t answer questions which humble you.

You are correct, PR, just because something says it’s theopneustos does not make it theopneustos. There truly is no way for me to look at a text and tell if it’s inspired. I must look to the Catholic Church to see what’s inspired.

IOW, God’s Word is subordinate to your church. It’s not theopneustos until your church says it is. And you call that “humble?”

 

[moondweller]

There is obviously no room for error. But it is because it is from God. This only applies to teachings. If a teaching is from God via the Holy Spirit, there is no need to be held accountable.

I’m not talking about the teaching, I’m talking about the teaches.

God does not need to hold himself accountable.

And why is that?

What are you seriously talking about by saying the pope is not accountable?

Infallibility does not refer to teachings. Teachings are either true or false. Fallibility or infallibility resides with the teacher. If your Magisterium (which are men) are infallible when they teach, then they are accountable to no one. What they teach can never be questioned since infallibility cannot err. One does not question the teachings of the infallible. Infallibility requires no accountability.

 

[ddarko]

I’m not talking about the teaching, I’m talking about the teaches.And why is that?Infallibility does not refer to teachings. Teachings are either true or false. Fallibility or infallibility resides with the teacher. If your Magisterium (which are men) are infallible when they teach, then they are accountable to no one. What they teach can never be questioned since infallibility cannot err. One does not question the teachings of the infallible. Infallibility requires no accountability.

Ok once again, if something is from God, there is no need for accountability. That is the absolute truth. When the gospel writers wrote the gospel, they did not need to be held accountable about their writings to humans. They were infallible in that sense. Popes also do not contradict teachings by infallible declarations. What does it even mean to say the Pope is infallible apart from his teachings? That is not even a Catholic position. You need to get your little facts straight. Also, people who declared what the Bible was, must have been infallible in the teaching. Otherwise you have no BIBLE to do your little Sola Scriptura stunts.

Secondly, I ask you with great respect, answer my question as to why you believe the bible is the word of God. Otherwise refer me to a post that you did answer it in. There are many more others in this thread who are asking you the same question and you keep avoiding it. I would assume you will have the courtesy to reply to at least one of us.

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

IOW, God’s Word is subordinate to your church.

Well, you can’t argue with history, moon. There was no Bible for 300 years.

That’s equivalent to the time that the Pilgrims arrived on Plymouth Rock until present day–no Bible. 300 years with no Bible!

The Church came first.

Absolutely, truthfully, undeniably a fact.

Then they told you that

“All generations shall call me blessed!” is indeed theopneustos.

and

“My breath is offensivet to my wife” is indeed theopneustos.

But that “Moreover, what I have now said in regard to abstaining from wanton looks should be carefully observed, with due love for the persons and hatred of the sin, in observing, forbidding, reporting, reproving, and punishing of all other fault” is not.

[SIGN]You only know this because the CC decided it for you[/SIGN]. Of course, all under the guidance of the HS.

 

[Fair_Lady]

See this: biblestudy.org/question/why-did-jesus-from-cross-say-woman-behold-thy-son.html

I am a Bible believing Christian and all matters pertaining to denominations and what the early church fathers established are secondary to me, next to scripture. That doesn’t mean that I don’t value what they did. It’s a huge other topic and I really want to stay with the topic at hand. Please see my post 790.

Yes. More later. Sorry I haven’t been able to get to this post earlier. It was loaded!

ddarko, could you provide me with the number of your post that I started on here so I can continue witho the rest of it? Sorry, but for the the life of me, I can’t find it.