How does Marian devotion save?

[Tomster]

Really Moon,

I think we all deserve a reply from you to the above question.

If you overheard a Protestant preacher say that he “has to save someone”, what would be your first thought? How would you interpret would he said?

Would you interpret him literally, figuratively or in some other sense?

How about it Moon? Literally or figuratively or some other sense?

 

[Tomster]

You seem to be going around and around in circles again Moon. You state that you have no authority. That is true. (Thank God). But then you say that there will be false teachers. If you have no authority how can you authoritatively determine who the false teachers are and who are the authoritative teachers?

Puhleeesse!

Do you want to take a stab at this one?

 

[crazzeto]

You’ve got your answer in 2 Tim. 3:16, Tom, by the use of the word “ALL.” The Greek word “pas,” meaning the WHOLE of Scripture. That would include BOTH Old and New Testaments. You have a right to disbelieve the testimony of Scripture, my friend, but that’s your problem, not mine. The Pharisees also refused to believe the blind man’s testimony concerning Jesus. But that didn’t change anything, did it?

No one is arguing that the whole of scripture is inspired of God, where we’re confused is when you change that verse to mean ONLY scripture is inspired of God… That is, that it comprises ALL of our knowlege of the Christ, Jesus. Again, which of these two verses is correct Moon:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

2Ti 3:16 -]All/-] cripture [alone] is given by inspiration of God, and [alone] is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Is verse one correct, or is verse two correct?

 

[Tomster]

C’mon Moon,

Answers, answers, answers! Let’s go man. We don’t have all day. :hey_bud:

 

[TobyLue]

Moon

You’ve got your answer in 2 Tim. 3:16, Tom, by the use of the word “ALL.” The Greek word “pas,” meaning the WHOLE of Scripture. That would include BOTH Old and New Testaments. You have a right to disbelieve the testimony of Scripture, my friend, but that’s your problem, not mine. The Pharisees also refused to believe the blind man’s testimony concerning Jesus. But that didn’t change anything, did it?

When St. Paul wrote this letter to Timothy, was he referring to the KJV? Was it out already in print at the time? Did he already know ahead of time that John would be writing the Book of Revelation?
Was St Paul alluding to this letter that he definitely was writing part of the Bible? Where in St. Pauls writings does he make that claim that what he is writing is Sacred Scripture? Where in the Old Testament is there anything that there will be a New Testament? In 2 Tim where does it state that what St. Paul is writing is to be included in the New Testament? Where in the NT is there anything where Jesus commands his apostles to go out and write anything?
Oh, and who determined the Canon of the Bible? If you say the Holy Spirit, show us when and where the Holy Spirit gave somebody an index to the Bible.

 

[moondweller]

No one is arguing that the whole of scripture is inspired of God, where we’re confused is when you change that verse to mean ONLY scripture is inspired of God… That is, that it comprises ALL of our knowlege of the Christ, Jesus. Again, which of these two verses is correct Moon:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

2Ti 3:16 -]All/-] cripture [alone] is given by inspiration of God, and [alone] is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Is verse one correct, or is verse two correct?

What else does Scripture say is theopneustos (God-breathed)? I fully understand that you have a problem with this. But your problem with this revealed truth doesn’t change anything. Many had a problem with Christ claiming equality with God, but did that change anything?

 

[Tomster]

MoonWhen St. Paul wrote this letter to Timothy, was he referring to the KJV? Was it out already in print at the time? Did he already know ahead of time that John would be writing the Book of Revelation?
Was St Paul alluding to this letter that he definitely was writing part of the Bible? Where in St. Pauls writings does he make that claim that what he is writing is Sacred Scripture? Where in the Old Testament is there anything that there will be a New Testament? In 2 Tim where does it state that what St. Paul is writing is to be included in the New Testament? Where in the NT is there anything where Jesus commands his apostles to go out and write anything?
Oh, and who determined the Canon of the Bible? If you say the Holy Spirit, show us when and where the Holy Spirit gave somebody an index to the Bible.

Stay tuned TobyLue. I think Moon’s plate is kinda full right now.

 

[Tomster]

What else does Scripture say is theopneustos (God-breathed)? I fully understand that you have a problem with this. But your problem with this revealed truth doesn’t change anything. Many had a problem with Christ claiming equality with God, but did that change anything?

What in the world are you trying to say?

 

[TobyLue]

Tomster

What in the world are you trying to say?

I think he answered you with a non-answer.

 

[Tomster]

No one is arguing that the whole of scripture is inspired of God, where we’re confused is when you change that verse to mean ONLY scripture is inspired of God… That is, that it comprises ALL of our knowlege of the Christ, Jesus. Again, which of these two verses is correct Moon:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

2Ti 3:16 -]All/-] cripture [alone] is given by inspiration of God, and [alone] is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Is verse one correct, or is verse two correct?

Craz,

I think the man is on overload. And I am trying to be charitable. Your questions (above) are valid. They deserve a direct response just as all of the questions the Catholics on this thread have posed. The man is chasing his tail. Maybe a time out is in order?

 

[Tomster]

TomsterI think he answered you with a non-answer.

Nothin’ new.

 

[crazzeto]

What else does Scripture say is theopneustos (God-breathed)? I fully understand that you have a problem with this. But your problem with this revealed truth doesn’t change anything. Many had a problem with Christ claiming equality with God, but did that change anything?

Lets see if indeed, scripture has anything to say about this subject

[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

So keep our oral teaching as well as this (these) epistle(s) as the word of God… Keep them equally as the word of God.

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

What is identified as being that which upholds and grounds, or strengthens or defends the truth? The Church, not written Epistles. Oh and at thsi point there were only Epistles, no Gosples yet.

1Th 2:13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.

That is, we preached the oral tradition to you and you accepted the oral word as the word of God. Paul blesses the thessalonians for this

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

That is, there’s a lot more to the story but they’re not going to be recorded by pen and paper. Do you think we just forgot it all though?

 

[crazzeto]

Craz,

I think the man is on overload. And I am trying to be charitable. Your questions (above) are valid. They deserve a direct response just as all of the questions the Catholics on this thread have posed. The man is chasing his tail. Maybe a time out is in order?

Oh, I’m neither upset nor supprised at the answer… It makes sense, everything he’s ever been told about Christianity is that all knowlege of the faith is contained with in the bible and only the bible. To moondweller, this is the most fundamental doctrine of his faith, and here we are attacking that doctrine.

I’ve seen this argument before, unfortunetly though the problem for him is that the bible does identify other God breathed sources of teaching.

 

[moondweller]

You seem to be going around and around in circles again Moon. You state that you have no authority. That is true. (Thank God). But then you say that there will be false teachers. If you have no authority how can you authoritatively determine who the false teachers are and who are the authoritative teachers?

Puhleeesse!

(1) I told you I don’t claim any authority therefore I don’t claim to “authoritatively” determine anything.

(2) Simply assigning “infallibility” to men doesn’t actually make it so, Tom. Nor does one claiming “infallibility” make it so. Nor will such a defense bear up for you at whichever judgment you stand. YOU will stand alone and give your own account. Adam’s answer to God that the fruit he ate was given to him by the woman He (God) gave to him didn’t work to his defense either (Gen. 3:12). He still violated God’s Word - and died.

 

[Tomster]

Moon,

Being a Sola Scripturist, could you please give us explicit proofs from the Old Testament where it speaks of its own “theopneustos”.

Please avoid using any indirect verses in your presentation. Just give us the verses from the Old Testament which state explicitly that it is the inspired Word of God.

Moon,

In the spirit of charity, I will let you off the hook on this one. The Old Testament does NOT give any EXPLICIT proofs of its own inspiration.

It gives many, many indirect arguments which are strengthened by cumulative force but as far as explicit proofs go, no way Jose.

There are two passages in the New Testament which explicitly refer to the Old Testament as inspired, namely, 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20 ff. And, if you happened to miss it, it was in the second passage that I just gave you that the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter himself, the first Pope, refers to the nature of inspiration and specifically to the prophecies of the Old Testament.

 

[moondweller]

What in the world are you trying to say?

I’m saying your answer is provided in 2 Tim. 3:16 with the word ALL (Gr. "pas). The WHOLE of Scripture is theopneustos. This is the testimony of Scripture concerning Scripture. God’s written Word concerning God’s written Word. You put God’s Word to the test.Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’"Same thing applies to His Word. What applies to God applies to His Word.

 

[Tomster]

(1) I told you I don’t claim any authority therefore I don’t claim to “authoritatively” determine anything.

(2) Simply assigning “infallibility” to men doesn’t actually make it so, Tom. Nor does one claiming “infallibility” make it so. Nor will such a defense bear up for you at whichever judgment you stand. YOU will stand alone and give your own account. Adam’s answer to God that the fruit he ate was given to him by the woman He (God) gave to him didn’t work to his defense either (Gen. 3:12). He still violated God’s Word - and died.

I guess I have been infallibly determined to be doomed. Thanks Moon!

Wait a minute, I was baptised, you know, born again with water and the Spirit. My salvation, according to your doctrine Moon, is that once I have been saved I will always be saved and nothing can change that. Am I right Moon? Oh, well maybe I wasn’t saved in the first place? But the Bible told me I was. How do I know for sure? Is it the Bible or you, Moon, that I should trust?

 

[Tomster]

i’m saying your answer is provided in 2 tim. 3:16 with the word all (gr. "pas). The whole of scripture is theopneustos. This is the testimony of scripture concerning scripture. God’s written word concerning god’s written word. You put god’s word to the test.matt 4:7 jesus said to him, "on the other hand, it is written, ‘you shall not put the lord your god to the test.’"same thing applies to his word. What applies to god applies to his word.

read my question again moon. Please.

I repeat, i did not ask you for a source from the new testament.

I asked you for a source from the old, that’s the o-l-d, testament.

Got it?

 

[moondweller]

Moon,

In the spirit of charity, I will let you off the hook on this one. The Old Testament does NOT give any EXPLICIT proofs of its own inspiration.

It gives many, many indirect arguments which are strengthened by cumulative force but as far as explicit proofs go, no way Jose.

There are two passages in the New Testament which explicitly refer to the Old Testament as inspired, namely, 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20 ff. And, if you happened to miss it, it was in the second passage that I just gave you that the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter himself, the first Pope, refers to the nature of inspiration and specifically to the prophecies of the Old Testament.

There’s only one place in ALL of Scripture that states that the WHOLE of Scripture is theopneustos (God-breathed), and that’s 2 Tim. 3:16. 2 Pet. 1:20-21 does not use the word theopneustos." Theopneustos only refers to the written Word of God - Scripture. And that would includes both O.T. and N.T. My answer to you has not changed, hence I am not in need of your “charity.”

 

[moondweller]

I guess I have been infallibly determined to be doomed. Thanks Moon!

Wait a minute, I was baptised, you know, born again with water and the Spirit. My salvation, according to your doctrine Moon, is that once I have been saved I will always be saved and nothing can change that. Am I right Moon?

No. There’s no such thing as baptismal regeneration/salvation.

Oh, well maybe I wasn’t saved in the first place?

If all you were was baptized with water, then it’s a possibility.

But the Bible told me I was.

The Bible states that salvation is “by grace through faith.”

How do I know for sure? Is it the Bible or you, Moon, that I should trust?

Stick with the Bible. But really, stick with the Bible.