J
JJ59
Guest
I must ask:
Why did she have to be a perfect fit for the “type”?
Why do only explicit descriptions of “types” in scripture count?
God Bless.
How does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ?
- Status
Why did she have to be a perfect fit for the “type”?
Why do only explicit descriptions of “types” in scripture count?
God Bless.
O
Ohwesty
Guest
The above quote is worth repeating.
A denial of the Church’s Marian dogmas affects one’s relationship with Christ’s CHURCH - of which He is the Head and which He filled with the Holy Spirit to lead all men to the truth until He comes again. It’s in the book of Acts… beginning with Pentecost in the upper room… where Mary was also, supporting the infant Church with her presence and her prayer.
- Lisa
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Cachonga
Guest
catharina – Thanks for stopping by. I can assure you I did not leave the Roman Catholic Church without a very serious examination of conscience. I would point out that the topic is “How does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ?
Randy Carson:
Randy Carson:
Randy Carson:
Randy Carson:
Randy Carson:
Randy Carson:
maryrev12 – I realize I may be accused of being evasive, but since the topic concerns the Marian dogmas rather than sola scriptura or church authority, I would suggest that you have moved off topic.
jj59:
jj59:
Ohwesty – This is more along the line of what I expect from the Roman Catholic position. Thanks for stopping by!
Randy Carson:
Working on it. Thanks!
Randy Carson:
I have addressed this before, but to recap – Mark 10:7-8 says, “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” It is not unscriptural to refer to your bride as your body (see also Eph 5:28 “So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.” ).
Randy Carson:
Gosh! I wonder what the Apostles preached and taught from. What did the Churches read to the people at the weekly services? Obviously, they had the Old Testament canon, and we know the things like the epistles of Paul were copied and passed around. Just because they were not put in a book and proclaimed Scripture doesn’t mean the Church didn’t use it in that way. There is a lot more to say about the canon, but not on this thread.
Randy Carson:
Jeremiah 17:9 reads, “The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?” You need to be careful about adding to God’s word (Proverbs 30:6 “Add not any thing to his words, lest thou be reproved, and found a liar:”.)
Randy Carson:
The comparisons you give (Deut 10:5/Heb 9:4, Exodus 16:32/Heb 9:4, and Num 17:1-9/Heb 4:14) could just as easily apply to Jesus, who was certainly ALL of those in an Ark of flesh rather than a gold covered box. There is a problem with your comparison of Exodus 40:34-35/Luke 1:35. Look at Exodus 40:34-35 and tell me what version says “overshadow”. That word is not used. Luke used the word * episkiazo *. This word is not found in the Septuagint (which was the Bible of the early Church). Strange that Luke, who was familiar with the Septuagint, didn’t use the same term IF he was trying to make a parallel. Rather, it seems more likely that he was deliberately trying to show there is no parallel between Mary and the Ark. 2 Sam 6:9 reads, “And David was afraid of the Lord that day, saying: How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?”. Notice, David was AFRAID. Now, in Luke 1:43, we read, “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” An examination of the passage will show that Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Ghost:” (Luke 1:41), not fear. Also, she did not make this statement after God killed someone for touching Mary. 2 Sam 6:11/Luke 1:53 are not the only place we find three months mentioned. For example, in Gen 38:24 we find Tamar accused of playing the whore because she was three months pregnant; Exodus 2:2 shows that Moses was hid by his parents for 3 months before being placed in the river; in 2 Kings 23:31, we find that Joachaz reigned in Jerusalem for three months (same thing for Joachin in 2 Kings 24:8); in Amos 4:7 we find God withholding rain for three months as punishment on His people; we see Paul entering into a synagogue, disputing and exhorting for three months in Acts 19:8, and again in Acts 20:3 we see Paul spent three months in Greece. There are other references (Acts 7:20 and Heb 11:23) that again refer to Moses spending three months at home before being placed in the river. In light of your other “parallels” already refuted, I suggest this one fails as well. Comparing the blessing of 2 Sam 6:11 with Elizabeth’s use of the word (which was directed to Mary and Jesus) in Luke 1:39-45 doesn’t work. Elizabeth’s house had been blessed BEFORE Mary came to visit, and we have no account of any additional blessing as a result of Mary’s visit. 2 Sam 6:12 & 1 Kings 8:9-11/Luke 1:56 and Luke 2:21-22 don’t compare. King Herod certainly didn’t dance before Joseph and Mary when they brought Jesus to the Temple. The same can be said of the High Priest, and the vast majority of the population in the city (not to mention the entire country). I would suggest that 2 Sam 6:12 and 1 Kings 8:9-11 would be better paralleled by Jesus entering Jerusalem on the donkeys colt (better known as Palm Sunday). 2 Sam 6:14/Luke 1:41 don’t quite work for Mary, either. Remember, she was pregnant with JESUS! Elizabeth acknowledged that Mary was the mother of HER Lord. Elizabeth acknowledged Jesus as savior, and John (in the womb) also leapt for joy in the presence of HIS Lord. Jesus has taken on flesh, thus becoming an Ark containing within Himself all of the Law, the Bread and the Rulership. Mary simply carried Him for a time.
Randy Carson:
The response would require a thread of its own. How does that acknowledgement and my refusal to address it in this thread affect my credibility? I am not being “evasive”. However, I would ask which Marian dogma relies on her comparison to the Ark of the Covenant? Or is this a straw man?
maryrev12 – I realize I may be accused of being evasive, but since the topic concerns the Marian dogmas rather than sola scriptura or church authority, I would suggest that you have moved off topic.
She doesn’t have to be a “perfect” fit.
Because this is where God (the author of Scripture) makes His meaning clear. There is great danger in adding to God’s Word. Finally, I will ask that, unless someone can explain how Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant is relevant to the topic, it not be brought up again.
Ohwesty – This is more along the line of what I expect from the Roman Catholic position. Thanks for stopping by!
J
JJ59
Guest
It sure does seem like you expect her to be a perfect fit. She doesn’t have to be at Jesus’ side throughout his life. You expect it to be a perfect fit that way. Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant because she was privileged to carry Jesus in her womb. You have high expectations for this “type”. (Scripture is full of subtleties, you know)
It is extremely relevant. From there, you may get implications of the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, maybe even the Coronation.
Look, your problem, according to your original question, is not so much with Mary as it is with the Church. Your question was “How does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ”, not “Where is the proof for Marian dogmas”.
It affects your relationship with Jesus in that it affects your relationship with His Church, that’s all I really have to say. If you want to discuss whether or not the Catholic Church is the Church of God, I’d be open to discuss it.
…Similar to that, God’s Word is not restricted to the Bible. The Bible never says it is the only authority. In fact, it denies it several times. Its interpretations can be twisted any which way the reader wants (evidence for a divine interpreter, the Church), the list goes on.
God Bless.
C
Cachonga
Guest
jj59 – The problem isn’t that she isn’t a perfect fit. The problem is that I don’t see her fit at all (as I mentioned before, I would see her represented more by the Gershonites who carried the Ark, rather than the Ark itself). And when you say “From there, you may get implications of the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, maybe even the Coronation.”, this sounds very much (to me) similar to someone else who would say, “It’s highly likely that a lightning strike in the primordial soup created a single cell organism, and from that all life on the planet evolved.” I know evolution is impossible for many reason (violates KNOWN laws of nature, complex nature of DNA is way beyond statistical limits of probability, other cell structures not accounted for, etc…). I reject the Marian dogmas based on Scripture. When God does something out of the ordinary, He makes it known clearly. Since there is no clear evidence for these dogmas, I can only presume that Mary was a normal, sinful human being, just like the rest of us (though still blessed by God and a model of faith, virtue and humility), and that she engaged in normal marital relations with her lawful husband, Joseph, AFTER Jesus was born. I do grant that she MAY have been assumed after she died, but it lacks Biblical support, and therefore should not be a dogma.
You say “It affects your relationship with Jesus in that it affects your relationship with His Church”. I would modify that by saying “It would affect my relationship with Jesus IF I were a member of the Roman Catholic Church”.
Finally, you say that God’s Word is not restricted to the Bible. If this was a thread on Sola Scriptura, I would ask if you could give a single word or phrase infallibly defined by the Catholic Church that was uttered by Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, or any other Apostle that is NOT found in the Scriptures? Since it’s not a thread on Sola Scriptura, please do not respond to this (but feel free to look into it).
You say “It affects your relationship with Jesus in that it affects your relationship with His Church”. I would modify that by saying “It would affect my relationship with Jesus IF I were a member of the Roman Catholic Church”.
Finally, you say that God’s Word is not restricted to the Bible. If this was a thread on Sola Scriptura, I would ask if you could give a single word or phrase infallibly defined by the Catholic Church that was uttered by Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, or any other Apostle that is NOT found in the Scriptures? Since it’s not a thread on Sola Scriptura, please do not respond to this (but feel free to look into it).
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
God DOES reveal this through the Church, HIS DIVINELY guided oracle.
How like the Jews that said Jesus couldn’t be the Messiah because he was from Nazareth, and Scripture said nothing about the Messiah coming from Nazareth! (They were right about Scripture, but wrong about the Messiah.) Once you’ve set your belief on flawed interpretations of the Scripture, you abandon God’s revelations for man’s. You are no longer a believer, but a disbeliever, like the Jews.
J
jmcrae
Guest
I find it astounding that you can think that Mary could hold the very God Himself, her own Creator, in her womb, without being utterly destroyed, body and soul - and at the same time, think that she could have been a sinner.
If your wife had held your Creator in her womb - He who with a single thought can annihilate you utterly, causing you to cease ever to have existed - would you go near her to touch her?
The Ark held only those things that God had touched - not God Himself - and yet, it had great power to destroy the enemies of Israel.
God touched Mary in a much more intimate manner, and for far longer (9 months) than He ever touched the Ten Commandments or the manna, and they gained the power to strike dead the Philistines, even through the wood of the Ark - but you think Mary is just an ordinary woman? A sinner? And that a man could be with her in the manner of a husband, and get children by her?
(Do you think that the stones of the Ten Commandments could have been used for building materials, or a doorstop, or any of the other uses to which stones are put, without utterly destroying those who attemped to touch them?)
L
Little_Dove
Guest
As Christians, we imitate Christ. Why did Christ come through Mary? Why did He make her essential to His Incarnation and to our salvation? I don’t think that we can fully ever answer these questions this side of heaven. He made Mary essential to the salvation of the world. If she had said “no” to the Angel Gabriel, Jesus would not have received that very body with which He died and rose for us. Did God have an alternate plan in case Mary said no? Thank the Lord that He made Mary so perfect that she was always the great “fiat”, in all things. Why did He make her like that? For our good! That is what I think is so often lost in discussions about Mary! In God’s great love for us, He made her for us! The perfect mother for His son and the perfect Mother for us, the brothers and sisters of Christ. If you are a true brother or sister of Christ, with God the Father as your Father, shouldn’t Mary be your Mother?
God Bless!
To Jesus, through Mary!
God Bless!
To Jesus, through Mary!
C
Cachonga
Guest
Exactly what I expect to hear from a faithful Roman Catholic.
I would remind you that God the Son was clothed in flesh, so it was human flesh within Mary’s womb, which is completely normal, and does not require sinlessness to accomplish.
I would remind you what the Scriptures say, “Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but God will judge fornicators and adulterers.” (Heb 13:4) God doesn’t have a problem with it, why should I?
I am reminded of an example Tim Staples gave in his series “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed” – In 1 Samuel (4:1-5), Israel was at war with the Philistines. After losing about 4,000 men in the battle, the people decided to bring down the Ark of God, because “everybody knows where the Ark of God is, the Power of God is”. (I am working from memory on this, so these may not be exact quotes). When the Ark of God was brought down, all Israel shouted for joy. This is where Mr. Staples ended his parallel. However, if you read on (1 Sam 4:6-11), you will see that 30,000 Israelites were killed, including the sons of Eli (Hophni & Phinehas), and the Ark was captured by the enemies of God. Why? Simply because the people were looking to the Ark of God instead of the God of the Ark.
I think you need to review your Scriptures. The power to strike dead the Philistines came from God, not the Ark. Is Mary an ordinary woman? Yes and no. She is human, and therefore subject to the same weaknesses and errors as the rest of us, but she was blessed by God and given the grace to bear and raise Gods only begotten Son, Jesus. Mary (as I have said many times) is a model of faith, virtue and humility, but she is still human, and, therefore, a sinner (like the rest of us). I also believe that Joseph and Mary had normal, marital relations AFTER the birth of Jesus, and (as a result) had other children (4 boys and at least 2 girls).
I don’t recall anyone being killed for touching the Ten Commandments (or even the jar of manna or Aaron’s rod). I know there were those who had permission to touch the Ark, and anyone else would be killed for doing that. Certainly, Joseph (who was Mary’s LAWFUL husband) would have a legitimate right before God and man to “touch” his wife.
Little Dove:
“While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”” (Matt 12:46-50) If you truly imitated Christ you would not exalt Mary above what Jesus did!
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Randy_Carson
Guest
I’ve been thinking about the subject of this thread, and it occurred to me that one reason - perhaps the main reason - that we seek to accept and understand the Marian dogmas is because of our love for our Savior, Jesus Christ.
Think about this for a moment…when you first fell in love with your husband, wife or current “significant other”, weren’t you completely fascinated by him or her? Didn’t you want to know all the details you could possibly learn about him or her?
Where she grew up? What kind of music he liked to listen to? Favorite restaurants, foods, books? Didn’t you want to know where (s)he went to school or where (s)he worked, lived and hung out on the weekends?
Didn’t you want to know what he/she thought about politics, religion and the local sports teams? Did you want to learn aout his or her family background?
Loving Jesus is a lot like that. We study the scriptures to learn what He said. We read commentaries to get background information on the geography of Israel and the religious climate of the day. What and where are the Sheep Gate and Pool of Siloam? Why were the Romans in Jerusalem? Who were the Sadducees and what made them different from the Pharisees? What was life like for Jesus growing up, and what may have happened during those silent years before his public ministry began? We want to know these things because we love.
We look at Mary because we love her son, and we want to know everything we can about Him. Mary loves Him, too, and by her excellent example, she leads us right back to Him: “Do whatever He tells you.”
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
Think about this for a moment…when you first fell in love with your husband, wife or current “significant other”, weren’t you completely fascinated by him or her? Didn’t you want to know all the details you could possibly learn about him or her?
Where she grew up? What kind of music he liked to listen to? Favorite restaurants, foods, books? Didn’t you want to know where (s)he went to school or where (s)he worked, lived and hung out on the weekends?
Didn’t you want to know what he/she thought about politics, religion and the local sports teams? Did you want to learn aout his or her family background?
Loving Jesus is a lot like that. We study the scriptures to learn what He said. We read commentaries to get background information on the geography of Israel and the religious climate of the day. What and where are the Sheep Gate and Pool of Siloam? Why were the Romans in Jerusalem? Who were the Sadducees and what made them different from the Pharisees? What was life like for Jesus growing up, and what may have happened during those silent years before his public ministry began? We want to know these things because we love.
We look at Mary because we love her son, and we want to know everything we can about Him. Mary loves Him, too, and by her excellent example, she leads us right back to Him: “Do whatever He tells you.”
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
J
jmcrae
Guest
Are you a Nestorian? (The Nestorians were condemned for their belief that Mary carried only the human flesh of Jesus; not Jesus Himself.)
At what point do you believe Jesus became God?
As Catholics, we believe that it is the same person, from the moment of conception to the moment of death, and on into eternal life. There was no point at which the child in Mary’s womb was not the Second Person of the Trinity - that which came forth from the mouth of God the Father to create all that is seen and unseen - the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
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Cachonga
Guest
Randy Carson:
jmcrae:
I agree that we should learn all we can about Jesus. He, alone, is the Savior! We should also learn what we can about those who were close to Him. However, I do NOT choose to go beyond what is written in Scripture. God warns us in Proverbs 30:6, “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Eve added to Gods command, and was deceived by the serpent. I have no doubt that the Scriptures are Gods Word. I cannot have the same confidence in oral traditions that are (supposedly) nearly 2000 years old, and I have absolutely NO confidence in “traditions” that had to “develop” over time. I will rephrase what I told Little Dove - “While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”” (Matt 12:46-50) If you truly loved Christ you would not exalt Mary above what Jesus did!
So you think that Jesus (fully God and fully man) would “utterly destroy” Mary, “body and soul” if He inhabited her womb and she was a sinner? Jesus, in His earthly life, was surrounded by sinners (certainly Joseph, Simeon, Anna, the Apostles, etc… would be considered “sinners”, unless you believe they were sinless as well). How could a sinner touch Jesus and not be “utterly destroyed, body and soul”? I suggest it’s because Jesus took on flesh. This is NOT Nestorianism. Jesus was fully God and fully man from the moment of conception, but He derived NONE of His divinity (Spirit or Soul) from Mary, therefore, Mary was shielded from harm by the flesh (as was Joseph, Simeon, Anna, the Apostles, etc…) Could any human pull the hair out of God’s face, punch Him in the face, spit on Him, nail Him to a cross, or punch a hole in His side with a spear and not be “utterly destroyed, body and soul”? Yet this happened to Jesus. Why weren’t these people destroyed? Because the flesh shielded them from His divinity. Peter, James and John got a glimpse of His divinity when they went up on the mount and witnessed Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah, yet Jesus did not glow at any other time.
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catharina
Guest
You should be terrified of you - and of your thinking.
As Jesus said in reference to His mother, she is exalted, honored, recognized for DOING THE WILL OF HIS FATHER, as we all might be by obeying Him. He did not dispute her holiness. Rather He recmmended being LIKE her.
You, as a man, arguing against the Mother of Our Lord, the Mother of God, have created a fortress that only walls you inside. Any friend, spouse, employer who knew of you hard-wired and engrained lack of respect for his/her mother could only vomit you our of his/her mouth. That you dare to allege ‘Mary doesn’t fit’ your mindset as THE ONE WOMAN called by and to grace speaks of enormous distance between you and Our Lord. (Since you asked for opinions, you’ve got mine now.)
M
maryrev12
Guest
Well mister- you brought it up!
God Bless everyone during divine mercy week-like a dam has broken … the Lord is pouring His graces upon all of us- call His name!God bless everyone!
so wonderful to be Catholic and experience the fullness of the gospel
C
Cachonga
Guest
Excuse me. I didn’t see Jesus exalting, honoring, or recognizing His mother in Matt 12:46-50. He DID say that anyone doing the will of His Father in heaven IS His brother and sister and mother. When told that she was there, He didn’t rush out to meet and bow down to her; he didn’t order a path to made for her to come to Him; instead, He left her outside (with His brothers) and made a spiritual point. If we do the will of the Father in heaven, then we, too, are the brother, sister and mother of Jesus! He didn’t dispute her holiness, but He also didn’t dispute that she had other children (I would suggest that, since she was with His BROTHERS (which He DID acknowledge), He actually affirmed that she had other children). Thanks for your opinion.
Thanks for sharing with us.
To all – I think this has been going on long enough. To recap – the topic was “How does NOT accepting any of the Marian dogmas affect my relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ”. I have been told that by not accepting these (and other) dogmas, I separate myself from the Roman Catholic Church, and, therefore, am separated from Jesus Christ (and salvation). I have been told that separation from the Church weakens my relationship with Christ. I have been told that, if I am ignorant of the facts, God will understand. I have been told that it really doesn’t matter. I have received a variety of responses (I do believe the first one I listed above is the “correct” Catholic response).
Some have tried to convince me these dogmas are true and should be believed. I have been told that they guard a Christological truth, but when asked, none were provided (other than for the “Mother of God” dogma). Other things tried to come in, such as the authority of the Church, Sacred Tradition, the canon of scripture, etc… I have had people offer to “help me back to the Church” (I really do appreciate the offer, it shows a genuine concern for souls), however, nobody was able to convince me with the God-breathed Scriptures. Therefore, I remain a former roman catholic.
In conclusion, I would simply point out that there were a wide variety of opinions offered for the topic, not all in line with “official” catholic teaching. I would suggest the next time someone says that Sola Scriptura causes divisions that you all think back on this and see how “united” you were with this one, simple question! This will be my last post to this thread, and I thank you all for your participation!
Pax!
C
catharina
Guest
There is no word in Aramaic for cousins or for step-siblings. All are called brothers/sisters.
That you imagine you could have a loving and meaningful relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ while doing everything in your power to disregard, disrespect and revile His mother is beyond odious. Human nature AND Christian values tell us to hold in esteem the parents of those we hope to call friends or “brothers.” It’s easy to see how far your journey from the Sacred Truth of the Church, from Our Lord Himself, has taken you.
Would I (or anyone with a bit of sense) ever want you as a friend, KNOWING that you hold my dear (and holy) mother in great disrespect? No - nor even as an acquaintance.
(By the way, how do you feel about your own mother?)
PS - yes, there is disgreement with the teachings of Holy Mother Church regarding Mary, mother of Jesus. In cases such as yours, those arguments are called “heresies.”
C
catharina
Guest
If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Funny, I thought TX was home to all BRAVE men.
M
maryrev12
Guest
well- I gotta tell ya- asking what traditions exist outside of scripture- us giving them- then you saying “oh no! thats not in scripture!”
theres something wrong with that…hmmmm
J
jmcrae
Guest
Preach it, Sister.
C
catharina
Guest
Yes - everything’s wrong with that.
That cachonga wishes to become his own intertpreter of Scripture might be ill-advised EXCEPT that cachonga left the Catholic Church to do that. Thus his move is much more than ill-advised. It’s heretical. It’s a given that Our Lord gave us the Church to protect us and lead us. The Church does so by its cherishing Scripture and Tradition. We Catholics need NOT guess at the meaning of Scripture. Holy Mother Church leads us,in that, without error, in its full protection of Faith and Morals. “Upon this rock, Peter, I shall build My Church and the forces of hell shall not prevail against it.”
I’m not very cynical by nature or inclination; yet when a heretical Catholic insists that the Catholic Church gets it all wrong about: Mary, the Sacraments, the Mass, etc. …, then I ask “Why have you REALLY chosen to abandon the Faith?” Was it the strong teaching on the sanctity of life (including the ban on birth control), or the fact that you really want to be a Mason, or a rampant pride in your own intelligence?
PS - cachonga has already approached me by private message repeating that
he’s done with “his” thread and much more. Only moderators end threads. Not cachonga!
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