How does Original Sin work?

[Richca]

It’s a bit difficult to understand why man would fall corporately-and I think that’s one of the OP’s questions, which is why I brought it up. Granny said,** "We often wonder why we are not born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness and Justice. The answer is that our wounded human nature is what Adam and Eve transmitted to human descendants … (CCC 404-406)

 

[fhansen]

Granny answered the question she posed, she said ‘The answer is that our wounded human nature is what Adam and Eve transmitted to human descendants.’ Did you miss this part by chance?

 

[fhansen]

Interesting thanks.
Can you better explain Maximus, the way you put it doesn’t seem to make sense.

a child always dies with demerit since his first motion was demeritous.
Not my sentiment btw.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

It’s a bit difficult to understand why man would fall corporately-and I think that’s one of the OP’s questions, which is why I brought it up. Granny said,** "We often wonder why we are not born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness and Justice. The answer is that our wounded human nature is what Adam and Eve transmitted to human descendants … (CCC 404-406)

The act of disobedience itself affected original human nature. Now, human nature is deprived of what should have been transmitted. God did not wound future humans with His disobedience. It is Adam’s act, severance itself, which becomes the “proper punishment.”.**

My response was that none of that really answers the question she posed: “We often wonder why we are not born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness and Justice”.

I don’t quite see the problem/question here.
Say two adjacent peasant villages in remote France…somebody kills his wife who belongs to the other village. A feud starts which never gets resolved.
The two villages hate each other’s guts.
The state of enmity if not resolved continues to be inherited and confirmed again and again for generations with tit for tat skirmishes and damage to crops etc.

The “laws of nature” re inherited disadvantages/gifts is a self-evident fact of life in ancient times.
Genesis simply assumes that model of inherited “sin” as a vehicle for the “story”.

We inherit gifts, contacts and natural advantages from our forebears we did not earn or deserve. Likewise with evils.

What is difficult to understand or accept exactly?

 

[fhansen]

I don’t quite see the problem/question here.
Say two adjacent peasant villages in remote France…somebody kills his wife who belongs to the other village. A feud starts which never gets resolved.
The two villages hate each other’s guts.
The state of enmity if not resolved continues to be inherited and confirmed again and again for generations with tit for tat skirmishes and damage to crops etc.

The “laws of nature” re inherited disadvantages/gifts is a self-evident fact of life in ancient times.
Genesis simply assumes that model of inherited “sin” as a vehicle for the “story”.

We inherit gifts, contacts and natural advantages from our forebears we did not earn or deserve. Likewise with evils.

What is difficult to understand or accept exactly?

To an objective questioner, let alone victims of abuse, etc, why are the evils of this world, as well as the threat of eternal punishment/separation from God, present for a person who did not commit the act that caused those consequences? I believe it’s a very honest question. In a just society we do not purposely punish anyone for another’s crime.

 

[grannymh]

Post 195.

Granny answered the question she posed, she said ‘The answer is that our wounded human nature is what Adam and Eve transmitted to human descendants.’ Did you miss this part by chance?

 

[fhansen]

Richca;14570574:

Here is a bit more…
No need to take the following seriously. Hopefully, it adds something to think about.

Dear Gentle Readers, CAF Members & Guests,

The below is a simple exercise in imagination. I present it because I am up to my blue eyes in God punishing as if He is some horrible………
Punishment this and that and *why. *I want to think about God and Original Sin and what really happened.

Here is a plate full of imaginative thinking.

Beavers do not beget birds. Beavers transmit beaver nature. And humans beget human nature which is an unique unification of the spiritual and material worlds. (CCC 355) It should be apparent that why we are born with deprivation of Original Holiness and Justice is because that is the nature of our human parents. And our wonderful parents received their human nature from their parents all the way back to Adam who disobeyed his Creator to the point that the original friendship relationship between Divinity and all future humanity was destroyed. Adam, who was not Divine, could not repair a relationship created by the Divine Creator. Fortunately, for us, the destruction of Original Sin only wounded our human nature. Because human nature was still alive, it remained deprived of the State of Original Holiness and Justice. (CCC 405-406)

While busy beavers build dams, an amazing intellectual event, they are not invited to share, by knowledge and love, in the Creator God’s life. Only human nature has that possibility. (CCC 355-357 & CCC 374-376)

When we let Genesis 1:27 settle in the deepest part of our nature, some of us may ask why God decided to make human nature with a physical material decomposing anatomy and a spiritual immortal soul animating matter so that there is a living human body. (CCC 362-366) A good guess is that our spiritual/material nature gives us the capability to enter the Gates of Heaven. In addition, our nature must be prepared to enter joy eternal following bodily death. Proper preparation is to be in the State of Sanctifying Grace . This is known as the State of Original Holiness given to the two original Humans with the commitment that this state is meant for all human nature. (CCC 404; CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC 375; CCC 415-419)

While we can say *why we *receive Adam’s wounded (deprived) nature is part of simple biology of species survival, the story should not end there. Instead, we need to look at who we are because of the Incarnation. John 3: 16-17. Sometimes the story of punishment is so awful, especially when it blames God, we look for a place to hide our pain. Maybe that is why I like busy beavers – they keep doing their thing in the best way possible.
Adam’s nature did not change; he lost something, there was nothing new that he could pass on. The question is, why did this deprivation fall onto all of his descendants? Anyone can dismiss the evils present in this world, but if you’ve dealt with people who’ve been abused, they often have gripes with God. And those questions must be answered squarely, rather than begged. “For God’s sake, where is God?”-the famous question asked by a concentration camp inmate observing a child being hung.

And we *cannot *say anything about the biological transmission of OS because we don’t know *how *it is transmitted-only that it’s a spiritual transmission if anything, something withheld rather than something naturally transmitted. God would be the one who determines that this wounded nature be passed on, with all the evils attending, for His purposes, which the Church, at least, admits to be a mystery rather than avoiding or attempting pat or unrelated answers on the subject, a mystery ultimately made bearable only by the the Paschal Mystery.

 

[grannymh]

grannymh;14570682:

Adam’s nature did not

change; he lost something, there was nothing new that he could pass on. The question is, why did this deprivation fall onto all of his descendants? Anyone can dismiss the evils present in this world, but if you’ve dealt with people who’ve been abused, they often have gripes with God. And those questions must be answered squarely, rather than begged. “For God’s sake, where is God?”-the famous question asked by a concentration camp inmate observing a child being hung.

And we *cannot *say anything about the biological transmission of OS because we don’t know *how *it is transmitted-only that it’s a spiritual transmission if anything, something withheld rather than something naturally transmitted. God would be the one who determines that this wounded nature be passed on, with all the evils attending, for His purposes, which the Church, at least, admits to be a mystery rather than avoiding or attempting pat or unrelated answers on the subject, a mystery ultimately made bearable only by the the Paschal Mystery.

Help!!! That is not my post 200.

By the way, I never say anything about the biological transmission of OS because it is basically a mystery. I do talk about human nature all the way back to Adam’s human nature. You can read about human nature beginning in CCC 355 and following . If possible, read all the way to CCC 421.

 

[grannymh]

This is the correct post 200.

Here is a bit more…
No need to take the following seriously. Hopefully, it adds something to think about.

Dear Gentle Readers, CAF Members & Guests,

The below is a simple exercise in imagination. I present it because I am up to my blue eyes in God punishing as if He is some horrible………
Punishment this and that and *why. *I want to think about God and Original Sin and what really happened.

Here is a plate full of imaginative thinking.

Beavers do not beget birds. Beavers transmit beaver nature. And humans beget human nature which is an unique unification of the spiritual and material worlds. (CCC 355) It should be apparent that why we are born with deprivation of Original Holiness and Justice is because that is the nature of our human parents. And our wonderful parents received their human nature from their parents all the way back to Adam who disobeyed his Creator to the point that the original friendship relationship between Divinity and all future humanity was destroyed. Adam, who was not Divine, could not repair a relationship created by the Divine Creator. Fortunately, for us, the destruction of Original Sin only wounded our human nature. Because human nature was still alive, it remained deprived of the State of Original Holiness and Justice. (CCC 405-406)

While busy beavers build dams, an amazing intellectual event, they are not invited to share, by knowledge and love, in the Creator God’s life. Only human nature has that possibility. (CCC 355-357 & CCC 374-376)

When we let Genesis 1:27 settle in the deepest part of our nature, some of us may ask why God decided to make human nature with a physical material decomposing anatomy and a spiritual immortal soul animating matter so that there is a living human body. (CCC 362-366) A good guess is that our spiritual/material nature gives us the capability to enter the Gates of Heaven. In addition, our nature must be prepared to enter joy eternal following bodily death. Proper preparation is to be in the State of Sanctifying Grace . This is known as the State of Original Holiness given to the two original Humans with the commitment that this state is meant for all human nature. (CCC 404; CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC 375; CCC 415-419)

While we can say *why we *receive Adam’s wounded (deprived) nature is part of simple biology of species survival, the story should not end there. Instead, we need to look at who we are because of the Incarnation. John 3: 16-17. Sometimes the story of punishment is so awful, especially when it blames God, we look for a place to hide our pain. Maybe that is why I like busy beavers – they keep doing their thing in the best way possible.

 

[Vico]

Interesting thanks.
Can you better explain Maximus, the way you put it doesn’t seem to make sense.

After the transgression pleasure naturally preconditioned the births of all human beings, and no one at all was by nature free from birth subject to the passion associated with this pleasure; rather everyone was requited with sufferings, and subsequent death, as the natural punishment. The way to freedom was hard for all who were tyrannized by unrighteous pleasure and naturally subject to just suffering and to the thoroughly just death accompanying them. In order for unrighteous pleasure, and the thoroughly just death which is its consequence, to be abolished (seeing as suffering humanity has been so pitiably torn asunder by them, with human beings deriving the beginning of their existence from the corruption associated with pleasure, and coming to the end of their life in the corruption of death), and in order for suffering human nature to be set right, it was necessary for an unjust and likewise uncaused suffering and death to be conceived; a death unjust; in the sense that it by no means followed a life given to passions, and uncaused; in the sense that it was in no way preceded by pleasure.

[1] To Thalassius, 61, On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ: Selected Writings from St. Maximus the Confessor, SVS Press, 2003, p. 133

 

[fhansen]

Help!!! That is not my post 200.

By the way, I never say anything about the biological transmission of OS because it is basically a mystery. I do talk about human nature all the way back to Adam’s human nature. You can read about human nature beginning in CCC 355 and following . If possible, read all the way to CCC 421.

My apologies-that misquote arose because of the misplaced Richa identifier at the top of your post #200-I had to erase my own from* this *post in fact to avoid a repeat of the same problem, but I also apologize if I misread any of your post, or read it too hastily. My main objection is to the notion that OS was just naturally transmitted to Adam’s descendants, whether because it is alleged to be due them, or alleged to somehow be an unavoidable consequence in any case.

Rather, God must have determined that transmission to be good in order for it to take place. And, again, CCC 404-406 simply do not deal with the question as to why OS was transmitted to the human race, which is why 404 begins with, “How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants?”

A person who is asking the question, “why” is generally doing so because they question the justice of such a transmission-a very logical question to ask, a question the Church has struggled with in the past because of the many evils that resulted in our world.

 

[Vico]

My apologies-that misquote arose because of the misplaced Richa identifier at the top of your post #200-I had to erase my own from* this *post in fact to avoid a repeat of the same problem, but I also apologize if I misread any of your post, or read it too hastily. My main objection is to the notion that OS was just naturally transmitted to Adam’s descendants, whether because it is alleged to be due them, or alleged to somehow be an unavoidable consequence in any case.

Rather, God must have determined that transmission to be good in order for it to take place. And, again, CCC 404-406 simply do not deal with the question as to why OS was transmitted to the human race, which is why 404 begins with, “How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants?”

A person who is asking the question, “why” is generally doing so because they question the justice of such a transmission-a very logical question to ask, a question the Church has struggled with in the past because of the many evils that resulted in our world.

Catechism 404 gives why original sin is transmitted: “But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

It is a dogma of faith (Council of Trent) that original sin is transmitted by natural generation.

 

[fhansen]

Catechism 404 gives why original sin is transmitted: “But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

It is a dogma of faith (Council of Trent) that original sin is transmitted by natural generation.

That does nothing to answer the question, why would God set it up so that the consequences of one man’s sin are transmitted to all? And Trent insists that OS is transmitted by propagation, without regard to any mechanism as Augustine attempted to establish, in order to distinguish that transmission from the heretical concept that it spread by imitation only. Yes, OS is inherited, from birth, by all of Adam’s descendants.

Now, any idea why that might be a good thing? Misery and death, mixed with a few high points, are the lot of humans on this earth. Solomon struggled with the meaning of it all, and how to prioritize our values to bring the most fulfillment out of the little this life has to offer, even for a king’s son apparently. He gained a pearl of wisdom from it all though. ‘Vanity of vanities, all is vanity…there is nothing new under the sun.’ We’re here, in this life, for a purpose that goes beyond punishment. That purpose answers the question “why?”

 

[grannymh]

That does nothing to answer the question, why would God set it up so that the consequences of one man’s sin are transmitted to all?

Obvious answer.
So that humans do not beget beavers.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

To an objective questioner, let alone victims of abuse, etc, why are the evils of this world, as well as the threat of eternal punishment/separation from God, present for a person who did not commit the act that caused those consequences? I believe it’s a very honest question. In a just society we do not purposely punish anyone for another’s crime.

But we aren’t talking about “crimes” nor “punishments” in the modern way many seem to be using those words.

We are talking about consequences.
It is a law of nature that we all have special advantages and disadvantages totally dependant on the vagaries of what age, nation, race, sex and socio-economic group we are born into.

That unquestioned self evident fact of life by the ancients is what the story of OS takes for granted.

As I say, I suggest only persons with a highly exaggerated sense of independence, individualism, loss of tribal identity and from nuclear or less than nuclear family environments would find this reality problematic.

I am from New Zealand with one of the cleanest greenest purest 1st world civilised, war free environments on earth. I thanks my lucky stars that my parents emigrated here before I was born. I did nothing to deserve this grace which was a direct consequence of their choices. If they had, say, stayed in Chernobyl Russia where the family had live for 10 generations…maybe not so much.

We all blamelessly and passively suffer evil (are “punished”) or good (graced") by the actual sins or graces of our ancestors.

I really cannot understand the difficulty you speak of. The exaggerated sense of freedom and individualism and disconnectedness it suggests in the mind of the questioner astounds me. Sorry if I sound negative , I really don’t mean to be. Perhaps we are frrom very different generations (I am sixty).

 

[Blue_Horizon]

That does nothing to answer the question, why would God set it up so that the consequences of one man’s sin are transmitted to all? And Trent insists that OS is transmitted by propagation, without regard to any mechanism

Not sure about this. There is a well accepted medieval mechanism - the defect is propogated in the body not the soul.
More specifically by the matter of Adam not Eve. The material defect is in the semen, or rather in the inability of the semen to “form” the passive protoplasm of Eve into a human body as perfectly as would have happened before the fall.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

grannymh;14570682:

And we *cannot *

say anything about the biological transmission of OS because we don’t know *how *it is transmitted-only that it’s a spiritual transmission if anything, something withheld rather than something naturally transmitted.

I believe we can say its a biological transmission with spiritual consequences.
There is a defect in the male formative principle.

 

[Vico]

That does nothing to answer the question, why would God set it up so that the consequences of one man’s sin are transmitted to all? And Trent insists that OS is transmitted by propagation, without regard to any mechanism as Augustine attempted to establish, in order to distinguish that transmission from the heretical concept that it spread by imitation only. Yes, OS is inherited, from birth, by all of Adam’s descendants.

Now, any idea why that might be a good thing? Misery and death, mixed with a few high points, are the lot of humans on this earth. Solomon struggled with the meaning of it all, and how to prioritize our values to bring the most fulfillment out of the little this life has to offer, even for a king’s son apparently. He gained a pearl of wisdom from it all though. ‘Vanity of vanities, all is vanity…there is nothing new under the sun.’ We’re here, in this life, for a purpose that goes beyond punishment. That purpose answers the question “why?”

Sexual transmission was chosen as the method of reproduction with genetic transmission.

 

[grannymh]

That does nothing to answer the question, why would God set it up so that the consequences of one man’s sin are transmitted to all?

“Transmitted to all”
is the opposition to the modern proposal that we living humans developed in various indiscriminate, random breeding groups following their speciation event aka the Homo/Pan Split.

Here is one silly idea which only has merit if one is familiar with rebuilding Catholicism so that it omits the fly in the ointment which any seriously informed person would consider as tampering with the aid of unknown Arianism so that life is filled with original personally preferred blessings instead of the nasty consequences of one man’s thirst for knowledge.

The silly idea is to first recognize that the first three sacred chapters of Genesis have been killed.

 

[fhansen]

Not sure about this. There is a well accepted medieval mechanism - the defect is propogated in the body not the soul.
More specifically by the matter of Adam not Eve. The material defect is in the semen, or rather in the inability of the semen to “form” the passive protoplasm of Eve into a human body as perfectly as would have happened before the fall.

Yes, medieval theories. And prior to that Augustine held that the concupiscence which was connected to the sex act of fallen man was responsible for the defect. The Church is very careful about accepting such unsubstantiated claims. At most she would maintain that the sex act is an instrumental cause of OS, not the primary one. There is* no* accepted Church understanding or teaching on the mechanism of transmission of OS-only* that *it is somehow transmitted to all men via the act of generation.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.