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Neithan
Guest
Has to do with God not contradicting himself, and the temporal nature of a created person as aeviternal.
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JMMJ
Guest
Like I said… God can do anything. Too often people try to bind him to human existence, as we know it. I am ok with it until we start discussing the concept of hell. If that is anyone’s concept of love of any kind (in this world or the next), I feel very sorry for them.
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MiserereMeiDei
Guest
Well, Jesus did say it would be better for some people to never have been born.
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Neithan
Guest
It is an act of love to create a person; if God wills to create a person whose nature is to be and not cease to be, then he would contradict his creative will to allow them to fail to be. If that creature chooses not to love his Creator in return, that does not detract from any love in the Creator.If that is anyone’s concept of love of any kind (in this world or the next), I feel very sorry for them.
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JMMJ
Guest
I have heard all the arguments and the truth is as plain as the nose on my face. The Church’s concept of hell doesn’t match with the concept of an all-loving God.
L
Latin
Guest
God created us includes our wills and our choices and we will and we choose EXACTLY the way God wills us to will and God wills us to choose. – Plain and simple.If that creature chooses not to love his Creator in return, that does not detract from any love in the Creator.
At our recreation: The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace. (De fide.) – So, every recreated person loves God, recreation of the entire human race is a part of God’s duty of care.
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – So, God created the dramas of evil and sin.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God Designed, Decreed, Foreordained every event which happened, happening or will happen in the universe, includes all our salutary act and includes all our act of sins.
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will (De fide).
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2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless
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Roguish
Guest
Hell is not the same as a really long, bad, tortuous Purgatory. The latter is bad, but it’s not Hell, which I think is more like being abandoned by God – the ultimate disaster, and one shudders to even think of it. According to the Catechism:he says that those in Hell choose it
I think Hell is perhaps reserved for those who stubbornly, even after a long time and many opportunities refuse to properly repent, confess, and suffer the temporal punishment they are due. In other words, if you knowingly and intentionally refuse to return to the State of Grace, then you might indeed at some point be lost irrecoverably. It’s scary to think of, and I don’t wish it on anyone. May God have Mercy on us.“The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God” (CCC paragraph 1035)
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I
Inquiry
Guest
No, it’s exactly the same thing. Their life is too painful so it is compassionate to end it? Have you considered that maybe euthanasia isn’t just evil on a human level but antithetical to God’s very nature?
See, now you are trying to move the goalposts.You would rather see someone suffer eternal fires of hell than know that they just peacefully ceased to exist?
I don’t know if there is anything peaceful about it.
And neither do you.
We were created immortal, God will not simply deny our existing. That would be a contradiction.
One may as well claim we are discussing an arm, not a human being. The soul is not a separate thing, it is the part of us that provides life to the body.Remember, we aren’t talking about a human being. We are discussing a soul.
Omnipotence means capable of anything that is logically possible.Nonsense. Word pretzels. God can do anything.
God cannot deny his truth.
What you have been proposing does not match with God.I have heard all the arguments and the truth is as plain as the nose on my face. The Church’s concept of hell doesn’t match with the concept of an all-loving God.
God cannot deny the immortal quality of us, he made us that way.
Doing otherwise is to deny part of his truth. Such a denial would mean he is not God.
The only logical thing left is that those of us that set our will against him at death are sent away.
There is no other place left but hell.
1
1Lord1Faith
Guest
Arguments from who? The arguments I’m reading in this thread are a good part not what the Church teaches. You probably know by now that some opinions on CAF are a misrepresentation of what the Church teaches today. But are instead a caricature of the teachings and ideas of the past.I have heard all the arguments and the truth is as plain as the nose on my face. The Church’s concept of hell doesn’t match with the concept of an all-loving God.
What the Church teaches today about hell is fairly simple. And you might agree with it. Because as you’ve said, all of the “old” arguments regarding hell that have been spread go against common sense and all of the other teachings about God. One reason no doubt for the spread of such ideas is their Protestant origins which are sometimes repeated here by zealous converts. It’s not at all the fire and damnation of the Middle Ages , or the Augustinian view, or of some Protestants.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
Saying that the Church was wrong for 2K years is definitely taking the wrong tack.
The Bible speaks in figurative language about separation from God, and conveys that separation in a way the audience will understand. That’s just a basic principle of exegesis.
Saints and even doctors of the Church are not right about everything, or even necessarily most things.
As far as believing the Church today…that’s up to you. If your version of hell rings true to your conscience then have at it.
The Bible speaks in figurative language about separation from God, and conveys that separation in a way the audience will understand. That’s just a basic principle of exegesis.
Saints and even doctors of the Church are not right about everything, or even necessarily most things.
As far as believing the Church today…that’s up to you. If your version of hell rings true to your conscience then have at it.
P
PJM
Guest
God’s Mercy can’t be measured; but it is enormous.
It’s EASY to choose hell; knowingly choosing Porn, masturbation, gossip that hurts the reputation of another; intentionally missing Sunday and or Holy day Mass; sex outside of marriage; contraceptive-sex (especially in marriage), are just a few of the ways’ WE can choose hell.
Life IS a “God Test.” and we either pass it or fail it. "The World (SATAN) tells us that “all this stuff if good; after all it s YOUR-body” and so on.
Jesus gives us Himself in Catholic Holy communion(1st. Cor. 11:23-30) so that we CAN have the grace to say no to Satan’s temptations; and the Sacramental Confession so we can REPENT and be forgiven and avoid Hell. (John 20:19-23)
Yes choosing hell is easy even for us Catholics; BUT Jesus makes getting to heaven possible by US freely choosing to live the lives Jesus created us for ; and His Sacraments make it VERY possible. But it is our choices that God ratifies…
God Bless you,
to Jesus Through Mary,
Pjm
It’s EASY to choose hell; knowingly choosing Porn, masturbation, gossip that hurts the reputation of another; intentionally missing Sunday and or Holy day Mass; sex outside of marriage; contraceptive-sex (especially in marriage), are just a few of the ways’ WE can choose hell.
Life IS a “God Test.” and we either pass it or fail it. "The World (SATAN) tells us that “all this stuff if good; after all it s YOUR-body” and so on.
Jesus gives us Himself in Catholic Holy communion(1st. Cor. 11:23-30) so that we CAN have the grace to say no to Satan’s temptations; and the Sacramental Confession so we can REPENT and be forgiven and avoid Hell. (John 20:19-23)
Yes choosing hell is easy even for us Catholics; BUT Jesus makes getting to heaven possible by US freely choosing to live the lives Jesus created us for ; and His Sacraments make it VERY possible. But it is our choices that God ratifies…
God Bless you,
to Jesus Through Mary,
Pjm
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BornInMarch
Guest
That’s what I think the line is too.
People who argue “The Wide Gate is Hell” are going against all the other verses in the New Testament when Jesus talks about how he forgives sinners and desires all men to be saved (rather than a select few).
People who argue “The Wide Gate is Hell” are going against all the other verses in the New Testament when Jesus talks about how he forgives sinners and desires all men to be saved (rather than a select few).
L
Latin
Guest
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach it any longer.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. …
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. …
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God bless
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. …
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. …
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God bless
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Vico
Guest
Mercy is the healing offered to the repentant, and the Holy Trinity desires to save all. Condemnation awaits the person that dies impenitent, that is, unreconciled with God, whether through loss of faith, or through despair, or through a blasphemous rejection of God’s love.… does that mean that it is hard for a Catholic to go to Hell? Since I’m sure no Catholic wants to be there. Also to what extent is God merciful? …
Matthew 7
Matthew 1213 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
30 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
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JMMJ
Guest
Does this make sense to you? Is this the best solution you would come up with for someone who has lost their way through a loss of faith, or who, worse yet, is in a state of despair?Mercy is the healing offered to the repentant, and the Holy Trinity desires to save all. Condemnation awaits the person that dies impenitent, that is, unreconciled with God, whether through loss of faith, or through despair, or through a blasphemous rejection of God’s love.
I don’t understand how people who subscribe to a faith that is based largely on the concept of charity can actually believe this is the best design God could create. It doesn’t square.
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JMMJ
Guest
I wasn’t going to reply, because I usually don’t to an answer such as yours. However, I feel it is important that you understand that even people like me, who have read and studied scripture in great detail, don’t believe the various concepts of Hell that the Church has taught over the years. There is no evidence for it, plain and simple.
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