How easy is it to go to Hell?

[Inquiry]

I think you and @Vico are taking very different meanings from dying impenitent and unreconciled. Indeed we are not talking about happenstance here. We are not talking about people who had a crisis of faith and then got hit by a bus. We are talking about people who deliberately built up impediments against reconciliation and then kept them strong. We are talking about people who have set themselves up so that no matter how much God promises forgiveness to them they will not take His hand, will not speak to Him, will not even look in His direction.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Mercy is the healing offered to the repentant, and the Holy Trinity desires to save all. Condemnation awaits the person that dies impenitent, that is, unreconciled with God, whether through loss of faith, or through despair, or through a blasphemous rejection of God’s love.

Does this make sense to you? Is this the best solution you would come up with for someone who has lost their way through a loss of faith, or who, worse yet, is in a state of despair?

I don’t understand how people who subscribe to a faith that is based largely on the concept of charity can actually believe this is the best design God could create. It doesn’t square.

Yes. The loss of faith, and despair, and rejection of God’s love are as described in the Catechism and may be mortal sins, and these are willful not involuntary.

Catechism

1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption …

2134 The first commandment summons man to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him above all else.

 

[JMMJ]

If you believe a state of despair, or loss of faith, is something one willfully chooses for oneself, then that tells me everything I need to know about what and how you believe. I don’t have anything else to say.

 

[Vico]

I think you and @Vico are taking very different meanings from dying impenitent and unreconciled. Indeed we are not talking about happenstance here. We are not talking about people who had a crisis of faith and then got hit by a bus. We are talking about people who deliberately built up impediments against reconciliation and then kept them strong. We are talking about people who have set themselves up so that no matter how much God promises forgiveness to them they will not take His hand, will not speak to Him, will not even look in His direction.

Jeremiah 5

3 O Lord, do not thy eyes look for truth?
Thou hast smitten them,
but they felt no anguish;
thou hast consumed them,
but they refused to take correction.
They have made their faces harder than rock;
they have refused to repent.
…
11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah
have been utterly faithless to me,
says the Lord.

 

[JMMJ]

Losing faith or being in a state of despair is not an emotion. I never said it was. (Although I don’t know why so many people here fear emotions. God created them, too, afterall. The ability to have them is pretty integral to the human experience).

You have a strange idea of what “willful” means.

 

[JMMJ]

As I said in a previous post, this tells me all I need to know about what and how you believe. I don’t have anything else to really say on the matter. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Inquiry]

Despair, in the sinful sense, is not the feeling of hopelessness but the act of giving into that feeling. It is entirely possible to continue behaving as if things are not hopeless even when you think they are. That’s why Diligence is the counter to Sloth (sorrow at the difficulty of a moral good).

Despair is not the same thing as depression, which as a mental illness is not chosen and is not a sin.

 

[JMMJ]

Despair, in the sinful sense, is not the feeling of hopelessness but the act of giving into that feeling.

No it isn’t. You don’t get to redefine the word to fit your narrative.

 

[Inquiry]

Yes it is. That you are planting your feet doesn’t let you ignore centuries of thought on the subject, nor misrepresent the words of those who are clearly referring to it as an act of will.

 

[Fauken]

No it isn’t. You don’t get to redefine the word to fit your narrative.

From the Catechism:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

“2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:
By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.”

It wouldn’t be a sin if it was just a feeling.

 

[Latin]

God can do anything.

In this life God is working on us to make all of us noble and joyful saints in Heaven.
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Phil.1:6; Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
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Eph.1:9-10; Making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
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Col.1:20; and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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Rom.5:18; So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.

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The salvation of every predestined to Heaven is eternally protected by God’s gift of Final Perseverance, this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every predestined to Heaven. – This is an infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

Without God’s gift of Final Perseverance everyone would die in mortal sin, (THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT IT) while the receivers of His gift of Final Perseverance NO ONE can die in mortal sin because this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every predestined to Heaven.

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

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At our recreation: The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide). – As we see, every recreated person loves and obeys God, recreation of the entire human race and the provisions of His gift of Final perseverance is a part of God’s duty of care.

If God provides His duty of care for everyone, no one goes to hell.
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God bless

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

@Latin

If God provides His duty of care for everyone, no one goes to hell.

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Interesting that Holy Scripture in many places disagrees with you. The following passages involves many theological things to glean.
Your assertion disagrees with what Paul says. We don’t pass judgement on GOD by asserting GOD’s duty of care for everyone makes it impossible to make a freewill act of blasphemy against The Holy Spirit with a full act of the will in Providence, (Jesus Christ told us that it is the only unforgivable sin in this life and the next). Implying that it is evil for GOD’s duty to protect vessels of mercy for all eternity from vessels of destruction by casting them into hell is a dangerous assertion. And, I’m sure you didn’t to it with a full act of the will.

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"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?
Amen!" - Romans Romans 9:14-23
Peace of JESUS Beloved Savior of those who accept Grace;
which as we know far surpasses all only human understanding; which sometimes by psychological denial; anesthetize with seeming lack of inner conflict in the guise of peace. And deep heartfelt well wishes for our common journey of Grace.

 

[Latin]

Thank you IsaiahSpirit, you just proved from another angle, those who would end up in hell (which I don’t believe) their blood would be on God’s hands.
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God did not create the human race for the reason to save a few elect (CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”) and to make them noble and joyful saints in Heaven and to throw the rest of the human race to the pains of hell and to make them suffer with horrible pains for all eternity.

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God created the human race out of love and for His Glory.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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God bless

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

I didn’t prove anything. In the Name of Love of JESUS and His Words, please stop passing judgement on GOD, it isn’t any creatures place. My job is to inform, not convince. Please refer to Dr. David Anders of called to Communion, whereby he has call in shows. And other Catholic Answer venues for explanations of The Faith, as they are much more qualified than me.

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My job is to inform on Bound by the Promises of JESUS Christ, that The Holy Spirit led Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Magisterial Teaching holistically not prudential pastoral judgement quotes that disagree given to The Chair of Peter.
It’s just like so many deny Mary Conceived without sin, by the all in
" And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." - Romans 3:22-24
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You don’t have The Keys which JESUS gave to Peter, which did not make him impeccable, but the ability to Authoritatively bind and loose. Some times the Magisterial makes prudential fallible judgments. But some things are Bound that are ExCathedra judgements free from error. For example, we know that The Liturgy is perfectly Biblically true; however, we don’t know what the more perfect Heavenly Liturgy is which our Liturgy in Provident perfectly reflects.
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" Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. very tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:15-23
The bad fruit of ambiguity on grave moral matters and it’s consequences are very evident today. May the fruits of The Holy Spirit abound in more of us!
I will pray for your immortal soul to come by Grace to knowledge of the truth.
Peace.

 

[Latin]

Thank you IsaiahSpirit for your post, I believe you are sincere and you have good heart and you are helpful.

I know Dr. David Anders teachings and in general I don’t agree with his teachings.

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I believe and I agree and I value the teachings of Jimmy Akin, Jimmy Akin is an internationally known author and speaker.
As the senior apologist at Catholic Answers, he has more than twenty-five years of experience defending and explaining the Faith.
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I also believe and I value the teachings of Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, a Jesuit theologian who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author).
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EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed. ”
David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"

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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.

“Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).

The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other.

Yet by dying, he gave us life that is the life of his resurrection.

Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God.”

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The teachings of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic theologians and Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.

The will of God is immutable, the will of God is to save everyone, the whole Catholic Church is praying for God to save everyone CCC 1058.

We all should believe what we are praying for.
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God bless

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Peace. I understand your human fallible private intepretation.
This just keeps going around in circles. Have a blessed day.
I’m bowing out Gracefully, my job is not to convince, but to inform.
As JESUS Always Sends Grace to do out of GOD is Love heartfelt charity.
And, of course, Bernadette of Lourdes.
May you receive more of the Holy Spirit Gift of Wisdom, as we know
it is much more than being wise. This has been defined as GODly Grace Gift for good judgement for the good of all, especially the weak and not informed.
"For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” - Rev. 19:10
"Jesus says to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, if not by Me.” - John 14:6 emphasis mine.
“Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.” - 2 Peter 1:20

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Proof texting, cherry picking, and private interpretation assertions;
for leaning upon one’s own fallible understanding is from time immemorial.
" Trust in the LORD with all your heart,

and lean not on your own understanding;

in all your ways acknowledge Him,

and He will make your paths straight.

Do not be wise in your own eyes;

fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

and refreshment to your bones." - Proverbs 3:5-8
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Thank GOD, in JESUS’ Holy Name, The Holy Spirit binds Truth,
leading to the more perfectly expressed Heavenly Liturgy,
by The Keys, stewarded by The Chair of Peter.
The Promises of God are always kept. And we; as Dr. David Anders
of ‘Called To Communion,’ non cherry picked historical Apostolic Succession.
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*please ask, seek, and knock in his ministry. he is much more qualified than me.
and for the sake of prudence in my God given purpose duties; referring to him;
is the answer to further posts by you - even if I do this without responding.
I do not want to be in a circular discussion that is like a dog chasing it’s creature tail.
It isn’t prudent(the chariot of charity.) Peace.

 

[ForeverLearn]

That does not indicate a shift in the will, it indicates a shift in capacity to express the will.

That seems to indicate that someone’s will can be known, in spite of their actions or revealed feelings. I see issues with that.

So I can assume you agree that external factors are necessary for a shift in will?

And it seems you understand the point I was trying to make, and have now shifted the question into whether or not that is “loving.”

If, after the person has died and willfully chosen to separate themselves from God, God continues to force Himself on them and ignores their desires, is that loving? If He were to force them to come closer to Him when they have chosen to move away from Him, is that loving? If He coerces their will to make them want to be near to Him, is that loving?

I see philosophical problems with defining God having a will, when he is defined as LOVE itself. Will seems to be a human construct.

Even if I play along and agree, God could allow you the freedom to not choose him, but he wouldn’t have to punish you for it. If you said the person who is fornicating is allowed to continue fornicating as opposed to burning in flames, that would be a bit more reasonable.

God spends our lives holding open the door of repentance and calling out to us. He will not force us through the door, but like the father of the prodigal son He will race to great us if we turn to Him even slightly. If we do not turn to Him, then He will respect that decision while still continuing to love us. This is not unlike the Earth father whose son rejects him, who loves the son forever but will not violate the son’s wishes. It is not what the father wants, but he will respect it.

I still see no reasonable explanation as to why this grace somehow ends when someone’s life ends in an imperfect world.

There have been multiple reports of interactions with damned souls where they express this sentiment. They prefer to be damned and separated rather than to draw closer to God. One testimony I was discussing earlier put it this way:

Now He shows Himself merciful towards us by not compelling a closer approach than that afforded in this remote inferno. Every step bringing us closer to God would cause us a greater pain than that which a step closer to a burning furnace would cause you.

I see no reason to consider them any more than I would from such anecdotal stories from peoples of other faiths or non-faiths.

 

[Neithan]

Even if I play along and agree, God could allow you the freedom to not choose him, but he wouldn’t have to punish you for it. If you said the person who is fornicating is allowed to continue fornicating as opposed to burning in flames, that would be a bit more reasonable.

First, you cannot continue fornicating when you’re dead. I think we can agree that is what will certainly happen to us. If you are positing hell after a general resurrection, then you’re at least hypothetically entertaining the idea that the Last Judgment will happen, and then

I see no reason to consider them any more than I would from such anecdotal stories from peoples of other faiths or non-faiths.

for consistency you would consider the stories of the faith that accepts the Last Judgment.

 

[Heaveniswaiting]

So, if you choose to skip out on Sunday mass, say cause your feeling a little lazy and then die the next day, without having confessed that you missed mass without a good reason…then would God send you to hell?..I REALLY hope not…I know missing Sunday mass without a good reason is a mortal sin but…

 

[LittleFlower378]

I have heard it from Theologians different opinions. One theologian says that one that regularly attends Sunday mass and misses once for little or no reason is a venial sin. Other Theologians say that missing once, no matter what(unless serious reason)is a mortal sin.

Missing regularly(unless serious reason)or only going on Easter and Christmas and giving up on the faith is no doubt an objective mortal sin.