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drpmjhess
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Precisely.
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SoCalRC
Guest
I know that you closed your message with the same sentiment, but your first sentence seemed to imply that one possibility is not compatible with known science. That does not appear to be the case. Rather God ensouled, literally, two individuals, or groups are both possibilities which seem to fit current scientific knowledge.Precisely.
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drpmjhess
Guest
No – it’s creationism that puts go into an anthropogenic box.It is also very interesting how you know the mind of God. You are boxing Him into a human box.
And if we do accept evolution are you positing we cannot accept supernatural intervention?
Obviously supernatural intervention is possible (e.g., the Incarnation), but the question is how, and whether science needs to be suspended at the interstices where intervention takes place. Or need there be interstices? Could God not intervene into the seamlessly natural causal sequence?
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drpmjhess
Guest
How do you understand “ensoulment”?I know that you closed your message with the same sentiment, but your first sentence seemed to imply that one possibility is not compatible with known science. That does not appear to be the case. Rather God ensouled, literally, two individuals, or groups are both possibilities which seem to fit current scientific knowledge.
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edwest2
Guest
And Christ turned the water into wine, skipping the grapes, fermentation time, aging process entirely. And He calmed the wind, instantly. And raised the dead.
These are the things God can do, literally.
Evolution, or science as it is also referred to, is being marketed here like a product. Buy it! Buy into it! The Pope approves of it, mostly, we think, sort of. God used it! We think, mostly, sort of.
“Evolution is really important because we said so! Accept it! Now!” Or we’ll just keep on bugging you until you do.
My brothers and sisters in Christ, what the Church tells us about evolution is the whole answer, the complete answer. Science is only a part, and, in some cases, not the most reliable part of the answer. The deposit of faith and accepting the teachings of the Church is more important than accepting this theory.
And if some us don’t, then what? Dogs and cats living together? The earth will explode?
God bless,
Ed
These are the things God can do, literally.
Evolution, or science as it is also referred to, is being marketed here like a product. Buy it! Buy into it! The Pope approves of it, mostly, we think, sort of. God used it! We think, mostly, sort of.
“Evolution is really important because we said so! Accept it! Now!” Or we’ll just keep on bugging you until you do.
My brothers and sisters in Christ, what the Church tells us about evolution is the whole answer, the complete answer. Science is only a part, and, in some cases, not the most reliable part of the answer. The deposit of faith and accepting the teachings of the Church is more important than accepting this theory.
And if some us don’t, then what? Dogs and cats living together? The earth will explode?
God bless,
Ed
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Orogeny
Guest
So why do you deny evolution?My brothers and sisters in Christ, what the Church tells us about evolution is the whole answer, the complete answer.
Peace
Tim
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buffalo
Guest
Science by its own defnition has a limited say about the universe. However, scientism is the name of today’s game.No – it’s creationism that puts go into an anthropogenic box.
Obviously supernatural intervention is possible (e.g., the Incarnation), but the question is how, and whether science needs to be suspended at the interstices where intervention takes place. Or need there be interstices? Could God not intervene into the seamlessly natural causal sequence?
Actually Catholicism and even creationists are more open to the wonders of God and acknowledge that faith and reason cannot be opposed.
Science - again being limited by definition overstates its abilities.
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drpmjhess
Guest
Good question, Tim.So why do you deny evolution?
Peace
Tim
Theologically what interests me most in this fascinating science-theology interface is how we walk the tightrope between naturalism and supernaturalism, between a universe in which God never intervenes and a cosmos in which God intervenes at every moment and in each pulse of every atom.
Many positions have been staked out, some more convincing than others. Some theologians want a totally miraculous universe from
a hexamaeral creation to Jesus’ imminent literal return on the clouds of glory. Others are content with a halfway position, in which God permits the universe to operate naturally up to a point, after which the interventions begin. Still others want a seamless garment, a cosmos in which God is “in, with. and under” every element and circumstance of the world (to use Luther’s eucharistic image).
I would be interested in your thoughts on this question, either on or off line.
Petrus
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heisenburg
Guest
Personal belief…Many positions have been staked out, some more convincing than others. Some theologians want a totally miraculous universe from
a hexamaeral creation to Jesus’ imminent literal return on the clouds of glory. Others are content with a halfway position, in which God permits the universe to operate naturally up to a point, after which the interventions begin. Still others want a seamless garment, a cosmos in which God is “in, with. and under” every element and circumstance of the world (to use Luther’s eucharistic image).
All of the above… where ever it suits His will…
If he sees that something can perform within his will and he doesn’t have to guide it… he will
IE the growth of a tree…
If he sees something is mostly there, or even partly there on its own, yet still needs his push, he will
IE the salvation process…
if he sees a need for complete control…
He will
IE the Resurrection…
Again, we cannot put limits on what God can and will do. No matter how exotic an idea may sound to us… It is infinity easy for him.
In Christ
S
SoCalRC
Guest
CCC 362-368, most notably CCC 366, a soul that is a unique creation by God, indivisible and immortal.How do you understand “ensoulment”?
Precisely when and how each of us receives a soul is not clear. I, personally, find simultaneous animation doubtful because of our biology, but the Church appears to leave the matter open at present. See:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
Footnote 19:
“This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent for two reasons…”
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edwest2
Guest
Hi Tim,So why do you deny evolution?
Peace
Tim
These words, from the Homily of Pope Benedict’s inaugural Mass, I firmly believe: “WE are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution.” That is the message I bring to my Catholic brothers and sisters here.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20050424_inizio-pontificato_en.html
Near the end of paragraph six.
God bless,
Ed
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The_Barbarian
Guest
Not in science. As you see, scientists applaud Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul for saying that science is not, and should not be, about the supernatural.Science by its own defnition has a limited say about the universe. However, scientism is the name of today’s game.
Almost all Catholics and almost all scientists. But most creationists aren’t so inclined.Actually Catholicism and even creationists are more open to the wonders of God and acknowledge that faith and reason cannot be opposed.
Perhaps you haven’t noticed that the scientists here are the ones most emphatically asserting the limitations of science.Science - again being limited by definition overstates its abilities.
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edwest2
Guest
Evolution should not be an idol or the god of the Catholic Church. It is man’s invention, coming long after God established creation. It is not important to the average person and is being marketed here like a product. Not for its scientific value but for its use to change hearts and minds, so that later, new “facts” can be introduced and because they come from science, we should follow.
The dignity of the human person comes from man’s sacred link to the divine. That fact is more important than any statement of science. It should be upermost in the minds of all Christians here.
God bless,
Ed
The dignity of the human person comes from man’s sacred link to the divine. That fact is more important than any statement of science. It should be upermost in the minds of all Christians here.
God bless,
Ed
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The_Barbarian
Guest
Absolutely true. That’s why the Pope and scientists are saying that it can’t comment on the supernatural.Evolution should not be an idol or the god of the Catholic Church.
Unless you eat or have needed antibiotics, among other things. And evolution is not man’s invention. Man only produced a theory to explain it. God created evolution.It is man’s invention, coming long after God established creation. It is not important to the average person
Very good. The way our physical bodies came to be, is not what we are. It is not nature, but God’s love that makes us so.The dignity of the human person comes from man’s sacred link to the divine.
Quite so. But the truth still matters. Evolution is God’s creation.That fact is more important than any statement of science. It should be upermost in the minds of all Christians here.
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edwest2
Guest
“God created evolution.”? Show me the textbook that says that. Are you familiar with contract law? Sometimes words are not what they seem. The common type of evolution discussed here is the no-God, textbook variety. That’s all I’m pointing out. The theory tells the average person that all this life got here on its own. That’s all the average person gets from the textbook. Since it works entirely on its own it denies to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life. It is atheistic, which is why atheists are comforable with it.
Your lengthy posts about it are not as important as that fact. Naturalistic, neo-Darwinian evolution excludes divine providence.
Science, for Christians, at least, needs to be examined in light of divine revelation.
By the way, scientists examining dirt in Canada found bacteria that were already resistant to normal and synthetic antibiotics.
And I hope you don’t try to categorize my comments as some kind of hate toward evolution or science in general. I follow scientific developments. I also follow their application for social engineering. Too bad that’s still going on.
God bless,
Ed
Your lengthy posts about it are not as important as that fact. Naturalistic, neo-Darwinian evolution excludes divine providence.
Science, for Christians, at least, needs to be examined in light of divine revelation.
By the way, scientists examining dirt in Canada found bacteria that were already resistant to normal and synthetic antibiotics.
And I hope you don’t try to categorize my comments as some kind of hate toward evolution or science in general. I follow scientific developments. I also follow their application for social engineering. Too bad that’s still going on.
God bless,
Ed
H
heisenburg
Guest
Exactly…Science, for Christians, at least, needs to be examined in light of divine revelation.
ANY theory regardless of field must acknowledge that God is in Control. God created gravity, light, nutrinos, strong and weak nuclear forces… i can go on, but you get the drift.
Each of these are real, and each serve their purpose in Gods plan. They are not divine, but that work WITH God’s will.
Same too with evolution. If you have any theory of evolution that does NOT ackowledge that God guided it, then it is false. Evolution, like gravity, EM forces, the laws of theromodynamics, etc is a natural thing that works WITHIN his will…
And that is the key thing…
I have to laugh when i hear Christians freak out by the idea of Evolution. If you believe in God, then you understand he is in control. Why is it that magicly, he no longer has control when it comes to evolution…
This is the logical conclusion when you say evolution, a natural process, is anti-God… That would mean an aspect of Nature is BEYOND God…
He doesn’t NEED evolution, and he didn’t NEED evolution to create man… but he chose to… because it suited HIS will.
He doesn’t NEED us to do his good works, but he did MAKE us to do his good works because it suites his will.
In Christ
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The_Barbarian
Guest
It’s a religious fact, not a scientific one.“God created evolution.”? Show me the textbook that says that.
Lawyers love to convince people that.Are you familiar with contract law? Sometimes words are not what they seem.
You’ve confused the methodological naturalism of science with atheism. Time to go learn more about it.The common type of evolution discussed here is the no-God, textbook variety.
The last Gallup Poll I saw, showed that most people who accept evolution think God was responsible. Maybe people are smarter than you think.The theory tells the average person that all this life got here on its own.
Nope. As the Pope points out, divine providence isn’t part of science, and science has no business in it.Your lengthy posts about it are not as important as that fact. Naturalistic, neo-Darwinian evolution excludes divine providence.
Yep. Shoots the idea of “directed mutations” out of the saddle.By the way, scientists examining dirt in Canada found bacteria that were already resistant to normal and synthetic antibiotics.
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SoCalRC
Guest
Perhaps you are reading too much into the sentence:These words, from the Homily of Pope Benedict’s inaugural Mass, I firmly believe: “WE are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution.” That is the message I bring to my Catholic brothers and sisters here.
I don’t have the full transcript handy, but a quick search turned up a news report on it:“They [evolution and creation] are presented as alternatives that exclude each other. This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.” - Pope Benedict XVI
msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/
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edwest2
Guest
You don’t seem to understand public education and popular perception. I am in no way judging how smart I think people are, but as someone who works in the media, I can tell you that what they believe is usually a stronger driving factor than what they know.
The common perception is that evolution excludes God. The Pope understands this. That is why he tells people we are not a product of evolution. This is not meant as a religious statement but as a statement of fact. The human activity labeled science can and has investigated all known phenomena. Your saying it can’t or shouldn’t or it isn’t somehow “strong” enough is not relevant. Science has studied humans praying. If you want to believe that their preconceived notion is not to look for something supernatural, that’s fine.
In a recent investigation of a miracle by the Church, both religious and lay experts concluded the event in question was impossible.
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=9547
God bless,
Ed
The common perception is that evolution excludes God. The Pope understands this. That is why he tells people we are not a product of evolution. This is not meant as a religious statement but as a statement of fact. The human activity labeled science can and has investigated all known phenomena. Your saying it can’t or shouldn’t or it isn’t somehow “strong” enough is not relevant. Science has studied humans praying. If you want to believe that their preconceived notion is not to look for something supernatural, that’s fine.
In a recent investigation of a miracle by the Church, both religious and lay experts concluded the event in question was impossible.
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=9547
God bless,
Ed
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The_Barbarian
Guest
The point is, the Gallup people have data we can see. And it says that most people who accept evolution realize that God did it.You don’t seem to understand public education and popular perception.
See above.I am in no way judging how smart I think people are, but as someone who works in the media, I can tell you that what they believe is usually a stronger driving factor than what they know.
The evidence shows otherwise. The Gallup Poll, which has been asking the question for decades, finds that almost three out of four people who accept evolution think God directs it.The common perception is that evolution excludes God.
pollingreport.com/science.htm
Well, let’s see if that’s true…The Pope understands this. That is why he tells people we are not a product of evolution.
"This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.” - Pope Benedict XVI
Sorry about that.
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