How Free is our Free-Will?

[crowonsnow]

Welcome to the discussion. Your premise and logic are not accurate. First your premise - God has perfect free will and not accountable to anyone. Who would you like God to be accountable to? I do not buy the premise that absolute freedom and being totally free to exercise one’s will is the ability to do “anything I want” mentality. Freedom is the ability to aways choose the Good. When you are given a choice between 2 goods … lets say A and B … and for the sake of discussion … A is using your time in a worthwhile manner … such as reading, prayer … something that is edifying for your soul … and then have the option to spend that time surfing the internet for porn … you are faced with a choice … do i spend my time doing something that is really good for me … or something that will be harmful … now lets suppose you KNOW that spending your time doing A is better than spending your time doing B … but you choose to do B anyway … I would say that the choice to do B is an indication that the person was not completely free … because to be completely free is to have the ability to always choose what is good … I hope that explanation helps …

If you understand the nature of God and what absolute freedom is, then you will find that your putting A with B do not go together.

The god doesn’t have to be accountable to anyone or anything. That’s okay with me for purposes of the free will discussion. I’m just observing that if this is the case and if this god has perfect free will then the two are related.

It naturally follows that if humans will ever experience perfect free will then they too will also be free from accountability and responsibility for their choices. That only makes sense. If not then there are two kinds of perfect free will, and the discussion gets even more complicated.

 

[jkiernan56]

The god doesn’t have to be accountable to anyone or anything. That’s okay with me for purposes of the free will discussion. I’m just observing that if this is the case and if this god has perfect free will then the two are related.

It naturally follows that if humans will ever experience perfect free will then they too will also be free from accountability and responsibility for their choices. That only makes sense. If not then there are two kinds of perfect free will, and the discussion gets even more complicated.

Interesting point - but I think you will find the more classical definition of freedom to be more along the lines of possessing the ability to always choose the Good and being able to live accordingly.

 

[greystoke]

I think free will is a gift that most people don’t exercise.

They get into a habit of doing the wrong thing. They are like radar, and look at other people around them to see what to do. If everyone is burning witches off they go gathering faggots.

We are supposed to use our God given faculties and reasoning to decide to do what is just. A lot of people don’t bother.

Thankfully many people are inspired by their faith to do what they believe to be right, and not just imitate what is currently popular, and often terribly wrong.

greystoke

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is our Free-Will totally Free?

With our free will we are able to make choices. The choices that we make, are we completely free or are our choices influenced by other factors? Are the choices we made yesterday effecting the choices we make today?

Your thoughts?

IMO, to be free is to be unpredictable, beyond the reach & scope of reason; therefore, freedom cannot usefully be analysed, only acted out. To be free is to be (sort of) infinite.​

Maybe freedom is what makes contradictories possible…

 

[PJM]

I’m just enjoying the exchanges and attempting to understand the free will argument without assuming it first, which is what most everyone else appears to be doing.

Interesting thought. I’m of the mind that “most of us” have assumed the position… err, to be true.

I’ve set free will aside for the moment and am attempting to understand what perfect free will is, if it is anything. So far the responses have been lacking. Everyone uses free will and then talks about limited free will, the free will agent, imperfect free will and perfect free will without ever defining any of these things. There must be some assumed axiomatic hierarchy underlying all these exchanges that escapes my pragmatic intellect.

To understand “perfect freewill” one needs to accept the existnce of God our Creator (to make something out of nothing —"assumed axiomatic hierarchy—), and ask why is it only God, His Angels amd Humanity have intellect and freewill? (Can’t have one without the other.) Only we don’t assume it, we know it!

Trees respond to their environment, dogs to instinct, but we humans can think, and make decessions for ourselves. Why is that?

I don’t think anyone who chooses not to accept the existence of our Greator God (which by the way is the polar opposite of perfect freewil, and is (name removed by moderator)erfect -freewill, can grasp the signifiance of the question I have asked. Why do we have a freewill?

The “perfect answer” lies in the perfect use of our freewill. Our God is a Jealous God, and wants and expects (but does not demand) that we use these most unique and precious gifts, by in a sense, giving them back to God (the source of these gifts) so that we can prove that we Love Him, our Creator. God created humanity in His image and likeness, in order to be thanked and loved in return for all that God is and ALL that God does.

By accepting and obeying His Comandments, His Beaitudes and the Official Faith and Morals Teachings of His Church (the RCC), we do just as God expects us to do. We demonistrate humility, obedience, thankfulness and Love!

That is, we “perfectly” use our freewills.

It appears that perfect free will is the abdication of responsibility and accountability for one’s actions. I say this because the god apparently has perfect free will and is responsible and accountable to no one and no thing for its actions and its choices. Is that a reasonable observation?

So I don’t see how any human can ever possess perfect free will, try as we might, because humans will always be responsible and accountable for their actions. Even when the angels were in heaven they were apparently still accountable for their actions and got tossed for same. So to say humans will have perfect free will in heaven doesn’t wash. Apparently there is still imperfect free will in heaven owing to what happened to god’s angelic servants.

The free will discussion appears to be just a variation of angels-on-pinheads. Unless humans become the same as the god they will never have perfect free will. Perfect free will is impossible where the condition exists that a given expectation may not be realized.

Not so my friend: "in all things Love,“11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” 1 Cor. Chapter 13

 

[Michael_David]

If we even look further, to Christ and His use of Free-Will, when He was praying for this cup to pass but He became obedient to His Fathers Will and said, ‘not my Will, but Thy Will be done.’

This, to me, is where our Free-Will is… the ability to choose what we would like to happen, or that of choosing what God’s Will want’s to happen. Meaning, we either choose ‘us’ or ‘God’. Our Free-Will is ever present within the choices we make, the rest follows.

Whether perfect or imperfect seems to be null if a choice is made, no matter what the circumstances and drawbacks might be. And our conscience let’s us know if we have made the right choice… out of Love… or selfishness.

 

[crowonsnow]

If we even look further, to Christ and His use of Free-Will, when He was praying for this cup to pass but He became obedient to His Fathers Will and said, ‘not my Will, but Thy Will be done.’

This, to me, is where our Free-Will is… the ability to choose what we would like to happen, or that of choosing what God’s Will want’s to happen. Meaning, we either choose ‘us’ or ‘God’. Our Free-Will is ever present within the choices we make, the rest follows.

Whether perfect or imperfect seems to be null if a choice is made, no matter what the circumstances and drawbacks might be. And our conscience let’s us know if we have made the right choice… out of Love… or selfishness.

So free will is nothing more than obedience to whatever we believe the god wants. Correct?

 

[jkiernan56]

To understand “perfect freewill” one needs to accept the existnce of God our Creator (to make something out of nothing —"assumed axiomatic hierarchy—), and ask why is it only God, His Angels amd Humanity have intellect and freewill? (Can’t have one without the other.) Only we don’t assume it, we know it!

Trees respond to their environment, dogs to instinct, but we humans can think, and make decessions for ourselves. Why is that?

Does anyone here deny the reality that human beings have INTELLECT and the ability to make CHOICES? My basic common sense, experience, and understanding tell me that this reality is TRUE. Now if this is TRUE me, then only a Reality of equal or greater possession of Intellect and Will could give this to me.

 

[jkiernan56]

The “perfect answer” lies in the perfect use of our freewill. Our God is a Jealous God, and wants and expects (but does not demand) that we use these most unique and precious gifts, by in a sense, giving them back to God (the source of these gifts) so that we can prove that we Love Him, our Creator. God created humanity in His image and likeness, in order to be thanked and loved in return for all that God is and ALL that God does

PJM, I used to think what you stated here, but over the years I have come to a different understanding about God’s jealousy from reading CS Lewis The Problem of Pain. I honestly think that God demands (and not just expects) that we use His gifts in the way He intends. Not because God is a grumpy ogrish Dictator that enjoys bossing us around. I am beginning to understand God’s love in a new way. God loves us so much that He cannot accept anything less beautiful in us other than the image of Christ - His Firstborn Son. How God accomplishes that is through the cross in each of our lives … dying and rising with Christ … putting off the old and putting on the new … allowing God’s love and grace to purify us … to be His beautiful Bride … and I hate to say it … but I know from personal experience that some of the pain we go through in life is Divinely ordained for our good. I am beginning to learn that what I understand about love is not God’s understanding of love. His Love cannot allow anything impure or ugly in our lives. God is a Jealous God because of His Love for us … and Gods Love DEMANDS that we be conformed to the image of Christ. Ouchhhhhh… lol … I don’t like pain

 

[Michael_David]

So free will is nothing more than obedience to whatever we believe the god wants. Correct?

No! It’s the ability to choose either what God wants of us, OR what we want for ourselves.

And, these two can align if we want to do God’s Will.

 

[jkiernan56]

So I don’t see how any human can ever possess perfect free will, try as we might, because humans will always be responsible and accountable for their actions. Even when the angels were in heaven they were apparently still accountable for their actions and got tossed for same. So to say humans will have perfect free will in heaven doesn’t wash. Apparently there is still imperfect free will in heaven owing to what happened to god’s angelic servants.

Its called Sanctity. If what you are telling me is true here, then what you are saying is that Sanctity is not possible in this life. I don’t agree with that as the lives of the Saints have testified. When you and I have become totally Sanctified, we will be completely free and be able to exercise our free will in the way that God wills … not only for our good, but the good of others, and the glorification of God’s holiness. In basketball, some players stand out from all the rest. That doesn’t mean the other players aren’t good - because they are. But there are some that you can clearly see are above all the rest such as Lebron James and Kolbe in their basketball abilities. All of us are called to the Wedding Banquet, but only a few take seriously the call to the Kingdom of God and stand out head and shoulders from all the rest … these are the Saints … the testimony of the Church of its authenticity … the proof of the pudding … Christ is Risen!!!

 

[crowonsnow]

PJM, I used to think what you stated here, but over the years I have come to a different understanding about God’s jealousy from reading CS Lewis The Problem of Pain. I honestly think that God demands (and not just expects) that we use His gifts in the way He intends. Not because God is a grumpy ogrish Dictator that enjoys bossing us around. I am beginning to understand God’s love in a new way. God loves us so much that He cannot accept anything less beautiful in us other than the image of Christ - His Firstborn Son. How God accomplishes that is through the cross in each of our lives … dying and rising with Christ … putting off the old and putting on the new … allowing God’s love and grace to purify us … to be His beautiful Bride … and I hate to say it … but I know from personal experience that some of the pain we go through in life is Divinely ordained for our good. I am beginning to learn that what I understand about love is not God’s understanding of love. His Love cannot allow anything impure or ugly in our lives. God is a Jealous God because of His Love for us … and Gods Love DEMANDS that we be conformed to the image of Christ. Ouchhhhhh… lol … I don’t like pain

I can’t help but think about the scene in Peter Pan where Peter is teaching Wendy and her brothers how to fly. She tells them to “think happy thoughts.”

To each his own.

 

[jkiernan56]

I can’t help but think about the scene in Peter Pan where Peter is teaching Wendy and her brothers how to fly. She tells them to “think happy thoughts.”

To each his own.

LOL … have you met Christ yet?

 

[PJM]

So free will is nothing more than obedience to whatever we believe the god wants. Correct?

Actually my friend,

Freewill is a great deal more than that.

Freewill is obedience to everything we can know to be right and good, from the moral law written on “our hearts,” to The Commandments, The Beautitudes, to the Church’s Offical teachings on Faith and Morals, and all done with charity.

BUT, it is also, and this is key, the ability to say no to God, in thought, word and deed.

Intellect and freewill are two leafs of “the same plant.” When one has either, one has both. One cannot use or apply either without using and applying both.

 

[taylor007]

. there is no direct cause-effect relationship between Gods KNOWING and God CAUSING. What God’s KNOWS does not CAUSE. What God knows you and I will do tomorrow … does not mean that His knowledge is causing what He knows … God knows what YOU and I will do … and it is NOT God who is doing it … YOU and I are doing it … and He KNOWS already the choices that we will make … I hope that helps…

well,u had me convinced for sometime,but later another question sprang up in my mind." what God knows, doesnt cause"?
that sounds like God doesnt cause ANYTHING to happen,an idea that ,i must say, doesnt appeal to me much.the fact that god doesnt cause anything to happen but only thinks about whats going to happen makes god look like a spectator who merely watches over all the mischieves and good things that happen in this universe.

 

[Shlomey]

Now, when we have not God, we have not the truth, we are not “free”, for it is the truth that sets free, no?

So, without God, all we do is subject to the bondage of sin. Even when we do our very best to please God, we fail: hence the sacrament of reconciliation.

It seems, due to the fall, that we are not “free” in the sense that we can become holy (again!) out of our own power: we have to choose one master (God) over the other (the world) in order to be completely freed.

However, the choices we make - despite all influence - still are our choices. People can be put under great pressure and still withstand the influences.

And: we have to be free, because if we are not, God isn’t.

 

[Shlomey]

well,u had me convinced for sometime,but later another question sprang up in my mind." what God knows, doesnt cause"?
that sounds like God doesnt cause ANYTHING to happen,an idea that ,i must say, doesnt appeal to me much.the fact that god doesnt cause anything to happen but only thinks about whats going to happen makes god look like a spectator who merely watches over all the mischieves and good things that happen in this universe.

God can destroy everything right now if He wanted. He chooses not to. He knows everything, yet does not force us to do this or that. He knows what we do, but does not control our doings.

Because God is love (1 John 4), He has to be accepted or rejected on a free basis: God does not force itself unto another. It may persuade, but never force.
If God forced you to love Him, you would not be free and God would not be love and Christianity would be false.

 

[taylor007]

My dear friend in Christ Jesus, welcome!

You ask a very profound and thoughtful Question:tiphat: I wish I had been able to do that at 19 years of age.

The answer lies in what your saying as being factual, without it being the complete truth.

Let’s say your on a tall building and your looking over the edge. You see a speeding car about to turn right. and a semi about to make a left at the same time, on the same corner. Neither can see the other approaching. You know that their is going to be a serious accident before it happens, but did you cause it to happen, or for that matter, did you even allow it to happen? No and No!

i must say that ur example sounds a little crude,we have a different case when we are dealing with God.u said that despite me knowing that the accident was abt to happen,i couldnt do any thing abt it.yes ,i didnt do anything cause i was incapable of doing something that would have prevented the accident.had i been capable of doing something,do u think i would stand and enjoy the scene ?

God can and does tolerate (permits) bad and evil for two reasons:

1. For our possible sanctifcation. We can always say NO to God.
2. For God’s Glorification.

I noticed that you spelled God with a small “g” which tells me your not a believer. Would you mind sharring with us your understanding of what and who God is?

For the record. Catholics understand that that Heaven and Hell are Real, as shown by the Bible, and that it not God, NO it is us… you and me who decide where we will spend eternitiy:thumbsup:
i couldnt properly understand your reasons for God permitting evil.i would be grateful if u could kindly explain that part.
now the question abt if iam an atheist.i was born to catholic parents and baptized in a catholic church.and i believe that if anything makes sense ,its catholic principles.but i wouldnt want to be a blind believer ,one who believes without questioning.blind belief would be without a base.and i apologize for spelling God with a small g.

 

[taylor007]

God can destroy everything right now if He wanted. He chooses not to. He knows everything, yet does not force us to do this or that. He knows what we do, but does not control our doings.

Because God is love (1 John 4), He has to be accepted or rejected on a free basis: God does not force itself unto another. It may persuade, but never force.
If God forced you to love Him, you would not be free and God would not be love and Christianity would be false.

u didnt answer my question.
doesnt god cause anything to happen?

 

[Michael_David]

u didnt answer my question.
doesnt god cause anything to happen?

Humm. Look at the stars at night; look at the sunrise; look at the forest growing, seemingly unattended; look at your neighbor wishing you a “good day”; look at the twinkle in your spouses eye’s; look at your kids; look at your parents; look at your pet; look at your friends concern for you; see how going to Church makes you feel; feel the warmth of the sunshine… etc.

Remember, God will not cross the lines of ours (or others) Free-Will, so, nature and those we love, and love us, the free-will is active. You will even notice strangers being nice to you… for why?