How God could fail to convey his message?

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I am still not understanding what you mean I will repost our conversation
So lets get through it again.
What I was saying is that God didn’t fail because you believe he didn’t convince you. God delivered His message to you.
Well, I need to be first conceived that what you claim as God’s message is really God’s message. Have you been convinced or you just believe it?
Because He also gives you free will, you can reject it. Part of the message that God reveals is that you have free will. If He forced you to accept His message, that would be a failure.
I think that God has forced you to accept his message once you believe it. Heaven or Hell? Which does any intellectual beings pick up? Heaven of course. So God forced you. A relation between God and his creatures is only meaningful when things between them is unconditional.
I think you should use another word than tension as I don’t think it conveys what you are trying to say and it leaves me confused about what you are saying.
Well, all I mean that is that there is no relation between free will and being convinced about a clear fact, God existence for example.
 
So lets get through it again.

Well, I need to be first conceived that what you claim as God’s message is really God’s message. Have you been convinced or you just believe it?
I am convinced. I have no doubt but I cannot prove it to you. If it could be proved there would be no faith.
The dictionary definition is
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
I have faith.
I think that God has forced you to accept his message once you believe it. Heaven or Hell? Which does any intellectual beings pick up? Heaven of course. So God forced you. A relation between God and his creatures is only meaningful when things between them is unconditional
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I have heard of people rejecting a belief after they have accepted it. God doesn’t force us after all that would not be love and didn’t we establish that God is love? God didn’t force the angels. We can reject Him. It is your choice to believe or reject that choice is not forced on to you.
Well, all I mean that is that there is no relation between free will and being convinced about a clear fact, God existence for example.
I am not sure yet what you mean. Define fact?
 
I am convinced. I have no doubt but I cannot prove it to you. If it could be proved there would be no faith.
The dictionary definition is
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
I have faith.
Have you ever met God or had any spiritual experience? How you could be convinced then otherwise?
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I have heard of people rejecting a belief after they have accepted it. God doesn’t force us after all that would not be love and didn’t we establish that God is love? God didn’t force the angels. We can reject Him. It is your choice to believe or reject that choice is not forced on to you.
And you of course picked up Heaven over Hell. Didn’t you? Aren’t your actions biased toward what you accepted as truth. You will see that you have no options. We are here for the reason we are not responsible to and we have to choose Heaven over Hell.
I am not sure yet what you mean. Define fact?
Free will is the ability to choose when options are realized. We are however conceived when perceive enough facts about a subject matter. Fact: a thing that is indisputably the case. As you see there is no tension between free will and being conceived. You are free whether you are conceived or not.
 
Have you ever met God or had any spiritual experience? How you could be convinced then otherwise?
.Yes
And you of course picked up Heaven over Hell. Didn’t you? Aren’t your actions biased toward what you accepted as truth. You will see that you have no options. We are here for the reason we are not responsible to and we have to choose Heaven over Hell.
Those are the options but I would phrase them as doing God’s will or not doing God’s will. The angels had the same choice but not all chose God. If there truly wasn’t a choice you would have everyone choosing God but you don’t because your belief is wrong, there is an option.
Free will is the ability to choose when options are realized. We are however conceived when perceive enough facts about a subject matter. Fact: a thing that is indisputably the case. As you see there is no tension between free will and being conceived. You are free whether you are conceived or not.
Sorry the language barrier has struck. Can’t understand your point.

The definition of free will that I accept is
The power of the will to determine itself and to act of itself, without compulsion from within or coercion from without. It is the faculty of an intelligent being to act or not act, to act this way or another way, and is therefore essentially different from the operations of irrational beings that merely respond to a stimulus and are conditioned be sensory objects
 
Have you ever met God or had any spiritual experience? How you could be convinced then otherwise? . . .
God is with us all the time. He is only a prayer away. At least once a week, we come together in the mass to worship as a community and to take in His body and blood in the Eucharist. We can engage in the dialogue He has established with mankind, contemplating holy scripture. It is important to do charitable works because it is in each other that we find Him. I’m not sure what you are doing, but it is your life to live as you choose. To repeat the Catholic response to your OP - God has not failed. The wonders of His glory are everywhere.

The other day, I was looking for my keys. I was in a rush and they were not in the drawer. So, up and down the stairs, the bedroom, the bathroom, rummage through the clothes hamper, check out the kitchen, the fridge, into the basement and back to the drawer. Yeah, they had been there all the time. I hadn’t seen them, trying so hard to find them.
 
Alright. So you are convinced. Are you sure that you are not mislead by Satan? Spiritual world has infinite folds so why you picked up only one. I am raising this question since God cannot make difference between his children and convince some and leave others in state of doubt. This is very related to OP since people who are not convinced would not accept any message as message of God as well.
Those are the options but I would phrase them as doing God’s will or not doing God’s will. The angels had the same choice but not all chose God. If there truly wasn’t a choice you would have everyone choosing God but you don’t because your belief is wrong, there is an option.
I repeat again. God’s love should be unconditional otherwise God is not love. Such a God cannot reject his children alone in state of misery in Hell because his children are not doing God’s will.
Sorry the language barrier has struck. Can’t understand your point.
Lets stick to your definition. Considering this definition, can you use your free will to convince yourself that there is no God? You cannot. That is the whole point I am trying to make.
 
God is with us all the time. He is only a prayer away. At least once a week, we come together in the mass to worship as a community and to take in His body and blood in the Eucharist. We can engage in the dialogue He has established with mankind, contemplating holy scripture. It is important to do charitable works because it is in each other that we find Him. I’m not sure what you are doing, but it is your life to live as you choose. To repeat the Catholic response to your OP - God has not failed. The wonders of His glory are everywhere.
How we could accept anything as words of God if we are not convinced first? Apparently there are many Catholics who leave their faith and there are many who are not Catholic. Have you ever had any spiritual experiences to be convinced as well? How could be sure that your experiences are related to God? Everything could be the works of Satan! Satan has even power over Jesus since he could seduce him.
 
Alright. So you are convinced. Are you sure that you are not mislead by Satan? Spiritual world has infinite folds so why you picked up only one. I am raising this question since God cannot make difference between his children and convince some and leave others in state of doubt. This is very related to OP since people who are not convinced would not accept any message as message of God as well.
I am positive that I am not being misled. Just as I am positive that you are.
I repeat again. God’s love should be unconditional otherwise God is not love. Such a God cannot reject his children alone in state of misery in Hell because his children are not doing God’s will.
Repeat it all you want. It is not true. It is based on your misunderstanding of God. You are dictating what God can and cannot do. Hell is a choice. Free will allows this choice. If God says I gave you a choice but I am not going to allow you to have it that would not be just an attribute of God. It would not be just because it would take away my free will. You have made up a different definition of love than I have. What you state as love is not. I base my belief partly on Scripture. Where do arrive at your beliefs?
Lets stick to your definition. Considering this definition, can you use your free will to convince yourself that there is no God? You cannot. That is the whole point I am trying to make.
You ask me a question and then answer it but without any reasoning just You cannot. I say you can so point is not made. I can say there is no God because that is my free will. Just saying I can not is obviously not true.
 
How we could accept anything as words of God if we are not convinced first? Apparently there are many Catholics who leave their faith and there are many who are not Catholic. Have you ever had any spiritual experiences to be convinced as well? How could be sure that your experiences are related to God? Everything could be the works of Satan! Satan has even power over Jesus since he could seduce him.
Satan has no power over Jesus. I don’t know what you are meaning when you say He could seduce Jesus because He didn’t. Jesus is God. Satan was created by Jesus.
Satan would not lead you to God that is only one reason we know that we know it is not Satan.
 
I am positive that I am not being misled. Just as I am positive that you are.
I had far reacher spiritual experiences than you. I already passed your way being a Christian. Have you ever experienced or being challenged by Satan? He can influence your mind without you being able to notice. He can simply mind control you. Hence I am positive that you are mislead and I am not, at least compared to you.
Repeat it all you want. It is not true. It is based on your misunderstanding of God. You are dictating what God can and cannot do.
God is also bounded to divine justice and love. Isn’t he?
Hell is a choice. Free will allows this choice. If God says I gave you a choice but I am not going to allow you to have it that would not be just an attribute of God.
Hell is not an intellectual choice hence it cannot be real, at least within your discipline. Heaven is then the only option available which makes the whole story problematic since you practically don’t have any option.
It would not be just because it would take away my free will.
How could you free when you believe in concept of Heaven and Hell?
You have made up a different definition of love than I have. What you state as love is not. I base my belief partly on Scripture.
There is no definition for love. We just have a common experience of it. Hence we cannot possibly talk about different thing.
Where do arrive at your beliefs?
It took me a long way to reach the current state of my belief.
You ask me a question and then answer it but without any reasoning just You cannot. I say you can so point is not made. I can say there is no God because that is my free will. Just saying I can not is obviously not true.
All I mean is that you cannot deny God when you are convinced because you have free will.
 
Satan has no power over Jesus.
Then why Satan is free?
I don’t know what you are meaning when you say He could seduce Jesus because He didn’t. Jesus is God. Satan was created by Jesus.
Haven’t you read the story of Satan tempting Jesus in wilderness (Matthew 4:2-4)? How Satan could tempt Jesus if he was his creation. Also please read (Matthew 4:5-7).
Satan would not lead you to God that is only one reason we know that we know it is not Satan.
You don’t know whether you are mislead or not unless you have access to divine justice which apparently you don’t.
 
I had far reacher spiritual experiences than you. I already passed your way being a Christian. Have you ever experienced or being challenged by Satan? He can influence your mind without you being able to notice. He can simply mind control you. Hence I am positive that you are mislead and I am not, at least compared to you.
We are just unknown people on a faceless website and you believe that you can know what experiences I have. :bowdown::rotfl:
God is also bounded to divine justice and love. Isn’t he?
I think I said that… wait let me check…Yep I did.
Hell is not an intellectual choice hence it cannot be real, at least within your discipline. Heaven is then the only option available which makes the whole story problematic since you practically don’t have any option.
Not true. You may believe it is an untenable choice but that is your opinion that is not shared by those who chose it.
How could you free when you believe in concept of Heaven and Hell?
already answered.
There is no definition for love. We just have a common experience of it. Hence we cannot possibly talk about different thing.
If you can’t define it than how do you know that we aren’t meaning different things. I disagree love can and is defined.
It is defined in many ways scripture defines it as
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
It took me a long way to reach the current state of my belief.
All I mean is that you cannot deny God when you are convinced because you have free will.
Here we are at the end, at least for me, all we are doing is going round and round. You want to deny free will because you believe there is only one rational choice. I believe in free will the choice to chose what is not rational. Have a good life I think this thread is done.
 
I missed this post but this will be the end of my posting in this thread.
Then why Satan is free?
Because God made him that way:rolleyes:
Haven’t you read the story of Satan tempting Jesus in wilderness (Matthew 4:2-4)? How Satan could tempt Jesus if he was his creation. Also please read (Matthew 4:5-7).
It may be your lack of command of the English language but you state Jesus was seduced
which means to lead away. Jesus was not lead away. Satan attempted to tempt Jesus but he failed. Satan had no control over Jesus. He tried to get it but was rejected. Obviously God is tempted because as Jesus told Satan
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
You don’t know whether you are mislead or not unless you have access to divine justice which apparently you don’t.
I do know because I believe that Jesus would not lead us astray. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. How do you know that you haven’t been mislead? Oops! I guess you are in the same boat.
 
I missed this post but this will be the end of my posting in this thread.

Because God made him that way:rolleyes:

It may be your lack of command of the English language but you state Jesus was seduced
which means to lead away. Jesus was not lead away. Satan attempted to tempt Jesus but he failed. Satan had no control over Jesus. He tried to get it but was rejected. Obviously God is tempted because as Jesus told Satan

I do know because I believe that Jesus would not lead us astray. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. How do you know that you haven’t been mislead? Oops! I guess you are in the same boat.
I am wondering why you bother asking question when you want to leave thread. For what concern misleading, I am more sure than you that I am not mislead because I have been through what you are now! :tiphat:
 
…People believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming, micro/macro-evolution, the health benefits of vaccination, the health benefits of abortion, the cleanliness of manufacture of solar panlels, the need of mankind to commit mass suicide to save the earth, the economic justification of socialism/capitalism, the existence of Hogwarts, and more on less evidence than there is for Jesus and the Catholic Church. (I believe some, not all, of those are valid, but the point is each is believed by some group of people.) Proof is insufficient in every one of these cases to show, 100%, that such a thing is valid. If 100% proof is needed for us not to take something on blind faith, then we take our entire existence on blind faith.
But very few would admit they are harming and killing people thru their GHG emissions and concomitant pollution, despite JPII, BXVI, Pope Francis, the U.S. bishops, and nearly every mainstream religion telling that we must mitigate AGW to reduce our harming and killing people, even if we don’t have 100% proof and have doubts about it.

God expects us to do the needful based on the best evidence (and the science of CC is quite robust now, after gaining enough evidence that it was happening back in 1995 at the 95% confidence level) and not go searching around in a biased fashion for fake “evidence” and blog “science” contradicting that saying we’re not harming anyone re AGW and have no responsibility at all to do our part to mitigate it.
 
. . . I am more sure than you that I am not mislead because I have been through what you are now! :tiphat:
Your Post #4 betrays your lack of understanding of the Christian message.

You think you’ve “been there, done that”? Hardly.
. . . We learn love from our mothers. We don’t need any institutions for that. The main question is what is the truth?
You don’t have a clue what I’m saying. Right?

God has not failed even in your case. I think you got the message; but, it seems to me that you want more.
 
Your Post #4 betrays your lack of understanding of the Christian message.
What is Christian main message? To love. Thanks God for informing us about that. But hold on a second, didn’t we know that inherently? So God came to inform us about love forgetting that human beings have been surviving for such a long time without any need for the acknowledgement about love!
You think you’ve “been there, done that”? Hardly.
Yeah. Jesus is my close friend. Believe it or not!
You don’t have a clue what I’m saying. Right?
What you are saying? Could you please elaborate?
God has not failed even in your case. I think you got the message; but, it seems to me that you want more.
Yes, I want more. In simple word I want to know what is the POINT!? Yeah, you get into the Heaven after doing a lot of good stuffs and then you live there happy for ever. So what? This seems pointless to me. Could you please tell me what is the point when you know what is the sense of happiness?
 
What is Christian main message? To love. Thanks God for informing us about that. But hold on a second, didn’t we know that inherently? So God came to inform us about love forgetting that human beings have been surviving for such a long time without any need for the acknowledgement about love! . . . Yes, I want more. In simple word I want to know what is the POINT!? Yeah, you get into the Heaven after doing a lot of good stuffs and then you live there happy for ever. So what? This seems pointless to me. Could you please tell me what is the point when you know what is the sense of happiness?
The point of earthly existence is clearly and bluntly stated in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity, to be swallowed by death, with peace found in doing good. It seems to me that the purpose of all this is to grow in Christ, the one true living Way, to become ever-more Christ-like. So, it does not boil down to merely a gaining of personal knowledge. That is a vanity to gain intellectually, being always one small stroke from losing our capacity to use it. In paradise, one is in the presence of the living Truth. It is more real than the feeling of purposelessness, that comes from being disconnected from our true purpose. It is a state of communion with God through the giving of ourselves to Him, at the Centre of all that is.

The inherent knowledge of love that is our conscience needs to be informed. We cannot always discern what is good. The Ten Commandments was an important step in that direction. We lose faith, lie to ourselves and in different ways, find ourselves straying from its imperatives. We see the consequences of this disconnect, daily in our lives, and in the history of man’s struggles in this world. There needed to be not only a reaffirmation of God’s will, but the death and resurrection of the incarnate Son of God in order to save and redeem us.

Posting by phone; sorry for typos.
 
The point of earthly existence is clearly and bluntly stated in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity, to be swallowed by death, with peace found in doing good. It seems to me that the purpose of all this is to grow in Christ, the one true living Way, to become ever-more Christ-like. So, it does not boil down to merely a gaining of personal knowledge. That is a vanity to gain intellectually, being always one small stroke from losing our capacity to use it. In paradise, one is in the presence of the living Truth. It is more real than the feeling of purposelessness, that comes from being disconnected from our true purpose. It is a state of communion with God through the giving of ourselves to Him, at the Centre of all that is.

The inherent knowledge of love that is our conscience needs to be informed. We cannot always discern what is good. The Ten Commandments was an important step in that direction. We lose faith, lie to ourselves and in different ways, find ourselves straying from its imperatives. We see the consequences of this disconnect, daily in our lives, and in the history of man’s struggles in this world. There needed to be not only a reaffirmation of God’s will, but the death and resurrection of the incarnate Son of God in order to save and redeem us.

Posting by phone; sorry for typos.
You Could of course be a follower if you wish. You can however take your own spiritual journey alone and learn about your own potential. You will be however be forced with your inner curiosity to take the second path soon or late. We have to offer something to our friends, shouldn’t we?
 
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