How God could fail to convey his message?

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adrift said:
Lying is not intrinsically evil.
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If so, then I agree with you. But there are many people who disagree. It all comes to take one person’s word over another’s word.
adrift said:
But then again you are trying to say it is lying when it is not
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Ah, so when the correct definition is inconvenient: “A lie is the intentional distortion of the truth”… then we shall redefine the concept. Just like when “stealing” is redefined. It would be so much simpler to say that the circumstances matter, the intent matters, in other words the evaluation of an act is not absolute… rather relative. 🙂 By the way… is masturbation or contraception or abortion intrinsically “evil”? Or are some of them permissible under certain circumstances?
 
adrift said:
It means so what it doesn’t support your op
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Cool. How I am supposed to know this!?
adrift said:
That is what God wants faith. Faith by definition is unprovable.
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What God? What faith? Which religion? We can keep our faith on rubbish which is the product of people imagination.
adrift said:
What makes you think there is a Satan? If you can’t prove there is a god, how can you prove satan?
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I am kinda having some sort of spiritual experience yet cannot figure out what is what.
adrift said:
You cannot prove God didn’t give a message either. An old saying that applies to you is
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.
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The same applies to you too.
adrift said:
It all boils down to faith
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Keeping faith on what? I can make thousand of stories. Would you keep your faith on one of my story? Why not?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
If so, then I agree with you. But there are many people who disagree. It all comes to take one person’s word over another’s word.

Ah, so when the correct definition is inconvenient: “A lie is the intentional distortion of the truth”… then we shall redefine the concept. Just like when “stealing” is redefined. It would be so much simpler to say that the circumstances matter, the intent matters, in other words the evaluation of an act is not absolute… rather relative. 🙂 By the way… is masturbation or contraception or abortion intrinsically “evil”? Or are some of them permissible under certain circumstances?
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You made a statement that lying is wrong and gave an example of lying as the myth of Santa Clause. If you define this as lying than you must also define your use of Pallas Athene is lying that is of course it isn’t your true name? I don’t consider using an alias as lying. If you are going to be consistent, than using that as your name is intrinsically wrong. I of course don’t believe that it is. Not all distortions of truth are lies.
 
Bahman said:
Cool. How I am supposed to know this!?

What God? What faith? Which religion? We can keep our faith on rubbish which is the product of people imagination.

I am kinda having some sort of spiritual experience yet cannot figure out what is what.

The same applies to you too.

Keeping faith on what? I can make thousand of stories. Would you keep your faith on one of my story? Why not?
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What you are asking is why do you believe in God?
Why do you believe in Jesus?
I believe because God revels Himself to me in a thousand different ways including the fact that Jesus is our God and Savior. I believe that Scripture is true and given to us but more importantly He gave us His Church to guide us. I have evidence that would only convince me. I have been touched by God but I am sure you would not believe from what has happened to me and my family.
 
adrift said:
You made a statement that lying is wrong and gave an example of lying as the myth of Santa Clause. If you define this as lying than you must also define your use of Pallas Athene is lying that is of course it isn’t your true name? I don’t consider using an alias as lying. If you are going to be consistent, than using that as your name is intrinsically wrong. I of course don’t believe that it is. Not all distortions of truth are lies.
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A slight misunderstanding. I do NOT consider lying to be “intrinsically” wrong.

I quoted the teaching of the church which considers lying to be “intrinsically evil”. I consider all deliberate distortions of the truth to be “lies”, but not all lies are wrong. I call them “white lies”. May be a subtle distinction, but that is how I view it.

If you say that not all “distortions of the truth are lies”… then you need to point out “WHICH” distortions are lies and which ones are not. And if they are not… then WHAT are they? Don’t you think that creating all sorts of new categories is an unnecessary endeavor? It is so much simpler to accept that all distortions of the truth are all lies, but not all lies are created equal? 🙂
 
adrift said:
What you are asking is why do you believe in God?
Why do you believe in Jesus?
I believe because God revels Himself to me in a thousand different ways including the fact that Jesus is our God and Savior. I believe that Scripture is true and given to us but more importantly He gave us His Church to guide us. I have evidence that would only convince me. I have been touched by God but I am sure you would not believe from what has happened to me and my family.
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So God failed in my case since God failed to convinced me the way which is appropriate for me!? Doesn’t this mean that God failed?
 
Bahman said:
So God failed in my case since God failed to convinced me the way which is appropriate for me!? Doesn’t this mean that God failed?
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I suppose that if I am in a discussion with someone and they interrupt and talk over me I will fail to convince them. That is not necessarily my purpose, however. For example, I am primarily here because I like to share my thoughts about God with like-minded people.

Public education elementary classrooms in certain jurisdictions have as a purpose, educating everyone. Occasionally they are considered to have failed when the child does not learn. In schools dedicated to excellence, and at higher levels of education, such behaviour in students is not tolerated. The child has failed in these cases.

So, what is God’s purpose? I would say that He wills us all to find Him. Who He is, is Love. He wants us to love Him and one another. It is not important whether we figure it all out. What is important, is to be loving persons. To be loving persons, we must have free will. So, it becomes a choice to love, to give of ourselves, or not. To make that choice, those of us governed by reason cannot be coerced through ideas. What is needed is a change of heart. We must truly want to give of ourselves. Some people may never figure it out, since that is not the main reason why we are here. Also, there are people who want to be right; so knowing the truth would be counter-productive - only feeding their pride.
 
Aloysium said:
I suppose that if I am in a discussion with someone and they interrupt and talk over me I will fail to convince them. That is not necessarily my purpose, however. For example, I am primarily here because I like to share my thoughts about God with like-minded people.

Public education elementary classrooms in certain jurisdictions have as a purpose, educating everyone. Occasionally they are considered to have failed when the child does not learn. In schools dedicated to excellence, and at higher levels of education, such behaviour in students is not tolerated. The child has failed in these cases.

So, what is God’s purpose? I would say that He wills us all to find Him. Who He is, is Love. He wants us to love Him and one another. It is not important whether we figure it all out. What is important, is to be loving persons. To be loving persons, we must have free will. So, it becomes a choice to love, to give of ourselves, or not. To make that choice, those of us governed by reason cannot be coerced through ideas. What is needed is a change of heart. We must truly want to give of ourselves. Some people may never figure it out, since that is not the main reason why we are here. Also, there are people who want to be right; so knowing the truth would be counter-productive - only feeding their pride.
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You are simply explaining your system of belief. I need an argument instead so I invite you to read OP again: This is a question that should come to mind of any religious person: How God could fail to convey his message? There are two scenarios available: 1) God didn’t intended to convey any message and all religions are work of people. This is true since there are many religions around the world. 2) God failed. This is true because there are many religions around the world again.
 
Bahman said:
You are simply explaining your system of belief. I need an argument instead so I invite you to read OP again . . . .
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I would have imagined you are here learn the truth from a Catholic perspective.
As you say, you are here to argue. I have no interest in arguing.
There is no point rereading what you have been told again and again makes no sense.
God as He is understood, has not failed.
 
Aloysium said:
I would have imagined you are here learn the truth from a Catholic perspective.
As you say, you are here to argue. I have no interest in arguing.
There is no point rereading what you have been told again and again makes no sense.
God as He is understood, has not failed.
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What you are here, in philosophy forum, if you are not interested in arguing.
 
Bahman said:
What you are here, in philosophy forum, if you are not interested in arguing.
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What are you doing on a Catholic forum if your not interested in Truth as given by God vs your man-made opinion?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
A slight misunderstanding. I do NOT consider lying to be “intrinsically” wrong.

I quoted the teaching of the church which considers lying to be “intrinsically evil”. I consider all deliberate distortions of the truth to be “lies”, but not all lies are wrong. I call them “white lies”. May be a subtle distinction, but that is how I view it.

If you say that not all “distortions of the truth are lies”… then you need to point out “WHICH” distortions are lies and which ones are not. And if they are not… then WHAT are they? Don’t you think that creating all sorts of new categories is an unnecessary endeavor? It is so much simpler to accept that all distortions of the truth are all lies, but not all lies are created equal? 🙂
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If you quoted from a church document, please link it because I posted from the catechism and it conflicts with your statement. It is you who stated that all lies are mortal. It is that statement that I disagree with. You pointed to Santa Claus. Btw my son wanted me to tell you that Santa is a real man. I couldn’t argue after all he is. Your definition of a lie is so broad as I said would include you using a fake name. I don’t believe that your definition is narrow enough. The lies that hurt others is what is sinful. If you read the Catechism it is obvious that they it is not meant to cover fairy tales. It deals with harm done to your neighbor.
 
Bahman said:
So God failed in my case since God failed to convinced me the way which is appropriate for me!? Doesn’t this mean that God failed?
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Free will permits you to reject God’s message. Free will is part of God’s message. When you reject His message it confirms that His message has been received.
 
adrift said:
Free will permits you to reject God’s message. Free will is part of God’s message. When you reject His message it confirms that His message has been received.
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You misunderstood. There is no tension between being conceived and free will, you cannot use free will to reject my existence, could you? I need to be conceived that what I read is the message of God. I can however reject or follow them using my free will.
 
Bahman said:
You misunderstood. There is no tension between being conceived and free will, you cannot use free will to reject my existence, could you? I need to be conceived that what I read is the message of God. I can however reject or follow them using my free will.
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You have lost me, Have no idea what your point is:confused::confused::confused:
 
Bahman said:
What I am trying to say is very simple. There is no tension between free will and being conceived by a fact.
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I am still not understanding what you mean I will repost our conversation
So God failed in my case since God failed to convinced me the way which is appropriate for me!? Doesn’t this mean that God failed?
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Free will permits you to reject God’s message. Free will is part of God’s message. When you reject His message it confirms that His message has been received.
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What I was saying is that God didn’t fail because you believe he didn’t convince you. God delivered His message to you. Because He also gives you free will, you can reject it. Part of the message that God reveals is that you have free will. If He forced you to accept His message, that would be a failure. I think you should use another word than tension as I don’t think it conveys what you are trying to say and it leaves me confused about what you are saying. I know English is not your native language and I admire you for attempting to communicate in a language you do not have total command. It does however create a misunderstanding. Thank you for trying to clarify your position.
 
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