How God could fail to convey his message?

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By comparing what is known and claimed about Catholicism to what is known and claimed about other religions.
The trouble is that “claims” are dime a dozen. Every religion “claims” that it is the only one, which has access to the “Truthsup[/sup]” and all the other ones are either partially or totally deficient. So studying the “claims” is not helpful. Studying the “facts” would be helpful, if there were any. What “facts” can you bring up, for which there is good evidence? The “sacred” scriptures are not evidence. The “sacred” tradition is not evidence.
 
What truth are you seeking? The Truth of God? If you want to know the Truth about a Spiritual being, maybe you should ask a Spiritual being. Nothing I say will really convince you. Convincing requires prayer and that beings revelation of Himself to you personally.

I told you the Truth God revealed to me. First, God exists. Second, God has revealed Himself through Isreal. Third, God has revealed Himself through the person of Jesus Christ and that He started a Church to continue to convey the Truth of His existence, in the Catholic Church.
Look my friend, the spiritual world is very twisted and complicated so we cannot be sure of what is the truth based on what is revealed to us. The justification? There are many religions which they all have conflict in the contents with each other! Have you ever study or practice other religions. I can provide you some example if you wish.
 
By comparing what is known and claimed about Catholicism to what is known and claimed about other religions.

This isn’t all that difficult, is it? 🤷
Comparing is only fruitful if you are not biased toward the truth. I have discussed the same issue with other people and they claim the same thing that you claim!
 
How the existence of God could be sufficiently evident when we have to many religions and atheist also rules?
To the contrary, the existence of these many religions suggests to me that man does have the desire to follow the clues that God has embedded in nature, in morality, etc. and that God has been interacting with His creation from the beginning.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
What is the use of clue when each religion claims that it is the way and provide a instruction for each aspect of life?
The problem with this question is that not EVERY claim made by EVERY religion is a legitimate clue from God. (Sorry, Mormons.)

WE are responsible for seeking, and if we do so with all our hearts and minds, God will meet us on the trail and lead us home.
 
The trouble is that “claims” are dime a dozen. Every religion “claims” that it is the only one, which has access to the “Truthsup[/sup]” and all the other ones are either partially or totally deficient. So studying the “claims” is not helpful. Studying the “facts” would be helpful, if there were any. What “facts” can you bring up, for which there is good evidence? The “sacred” scriptures are not evidence. The “sacred” tradition is not evidence.
I’m glad you asked.

There are five facts accepted by most NT scholars (believers and skeptics alike).

The Minimal Facts are:
  1. Jesus died by crucifixion
  2. Jesus’ disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
  3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
  4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
  5. Jesus’ tomb was found to be empty
I discussed them in depth here:

Proving The Resurrection By the “Minimal Facts” Approach
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=966727&highlight=five+minimal+facts

Feel free to comment on any or all of these facts in that thread.
 
Comparing is only fruitful if you are not biased toward the truth. I have discussed the same issue with other people and they claim the same thing that you claim!
I would think that EVERYONE is biased toward the truth.

The alternative would be to say, “Well, that’s actually the truth over there…but we’re going to treat these falsehoods here the same as we would that truth…just to avoid being biased.”

😛
 
Look my friend, the spiritual world is very twisted and complicated so we cannot be sure of what is the truth based on what is revealed to us. The justification? There are many religions which they all have conflict in the contents with each other! Have you ever study or practice other religions. I can provide you some example if you wish.
I’m actually a religious studies major. Like I said before, if you want to know the Truth, you go to God himself and let Him guide you into it. I can not convince you. Personally, I’m starting to think your a troll. I started my journey as an atheist and GOD made me a theist. Then GOD made me a Christian. Then GOD made me a Catholic. The whole process leads you one, into the Truth and two, teaches you to trust Him, but your not interested in the Truth. Your just interested in Trolling. Every comment you make is argumentative.
 
I’m glad you asked.

There are five facts accepted by most NT scholars (believers and skeptics alike).

The Minimal Facts are:
  1. Jesus died by crucifixion
  2. Jesus’ disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
  3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
  4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
  5. Jesus’ tomb was found to be empty
Sorry, that is all mythology, not “facts”. In the biblical times the Jews were very good record keepers. The “miracles” attributed to Jesus were out of the ordinary - yet no one made a note of them. The whole story about Jesus was written (at least four, probably more) decades after his death. Not one eye-witness was among the writers. Textual analysis substantiates that the different gospels were all written by many, anonymous writers.

The usual “Liar, Lunatic or Lord” misses the most probable one: “Legend”. All you have is the “claims”… and as we all know, claims are dime a dozen. Every religion claims to be sole arbiter of “truth”. They all claim that the others are either partially of fully in error.

Most people pick whichever was presented to them in their childhood.
 
To the contrary, the existence of these many religions suggests to me that man does have the desire to follow the clues that God has embedded in nature, in morality, etc. and that God has been interacting with His creation from the beginning.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Existence of atheist is a counter example which shows that we are not inherently looking for God but to find answer to questions.
The problem with this question is that not EVERY claim made by EVERY religion is a legitimate clue from God. (Sorry, Mormons.)

WE are responsible for seeking, and if we do so with all our hearts and minds, God will meet us on the trail and lead us home.
Seeking must be sincere meaning that we have to doubt God too since seeking God with all heart and mind is biased by accepting God per se. So to me we have to be only sincere.
 
I would think that EVERYONE is biased toward the truth.

The alternative would be to say, “Well, that’s actually the truth over there…but we’re going to treat these falsehoods here the same as we would that truth…just to avoid being biased.”

😛
Sorry for misunderstanding. I meant that comparing is only fruitful if you are not biased toward what we know as truth.
 
Godconvertedme;13171122I:
I’m actually a religious studies major. Like I said before, if you want to know the Truth, you go to God himself and let Him guide you into it. I can not convince you. Personally, I’m starting to think your a troll. I started my journey as an atheist and GOD made me a theist. Then GOD made me a Christian. Then GOD made me a Catholic. The whole process leads you one, into the Truth and two, teaches you to trust Him, but your not interested in the Truth. Your just interested in Trolling. Every comment you make is argumentative.
Did God told you that I am trolling too!?
 
Sorry, that is all mythology, not “facts”. In the biblical times the Jews were very good record keepers. The “miracles” attributed to Jesus were out of the ordinary - yet no one made a note of them. The whole story about Jesus was written (at least four, probably more) decades after his death. Not one eye-witness was among the writers. Textual analysis substantiates that the different gospels were all written by many, anonymous writers.

The usual “Liar, Lunatic or Lord” misses the most probable one: “Legend”. All you have is the “claims”… and as we all know, claims are dime a dozen. Every religion claims to be sole arbiter of “truth”. They all claim that the others are either partially of fully in error.

Most people pick whichever was presented to them in their childhood.
It’s to bad you don’t actually know the truth. You just parrot what people that want to deny Jesus existed say. The facts are quite plain and are stacked against you. People don’t die for a lie. The disciples of Jesus died for the truth of his existence. Hundreds maybe even thousands of others did too. If today, I was given the choice of denying Christ or being killed, I would die. Not just because I believe the facts, but because I have experienced his supernatural presence. I have felt him guide me through life. I have felt Him help me make hard decisions on numerous occasions. All of this, I know, is meaningless to you. I know this, because I was once you, a sceptic, a nonbeliever. Until you ask God to reveal himself to you and honestly want it, you will never believe. He will never let you believe. God doesn’t want you to believe in Him because of facts in books. If He wanted you to believe in Him because of facts, He could have made himself a huge amphitheater in the sky and do three shows a day. Making new animals out of nothing and by doing miracles, but He doesn’t, why? Because God wants you to just want to believe. You were born ignorant of everything, including the knowledge of God. If what you want is to not believe, you have what you want. If what you really want to believe is there is a place where we can exist for eternity and that the God that created you wants to be with you. Then just pray “God, I want to believe, but I can’t” like I did and see if He won’t change your mind.
 
It’s to bad you don’t actually know the truth.
How you could be so sure? I also have spiritual experience but they ask me to think anytime that I ask for truth. I am wondering whether you mislead by Satan? Have you ever doubt?
You just parrot what people that want to deny Jesus existed say. The facts are quite plain and are stacked against you.
What facts? In fact what he claim is quite reasonable. Why don’t you believe Mithra who claimed to be God and had the same attributes as Jesus. The history is full of people who claimed to be God. I recommend you to google Mithra as another God.
People don’t die for a lie. The disciples of Jesus died for the truth of his existence. Hundreds maybe even thousands of others did too. If today, I was given the choice of denying Christ or being killed, I would die.
People in fact have always died for lies. Jesus was killed because he claimed that he is God. What is the difference between Jesus death and commit suicide when you know the consequence of your claim?
Not just because I believe the facts, but because I have experienced his supernatural presence. I have felt him guide me through life. I have felt Him help me make hard decisions on numerous occasions.
I am wondering if you are mislead by Satan. How you could be sure?
All of this, I know, is meaningless to you.
It is meaningless since you can never grow in your spiritual journey.
I know this, because I was once you, a sceptic, a nonbeliever. Until you ask God to reveal himself to you and honestly want it, you will never believe. He will never let you believe.
I rather keep my position and stay skeptic. We don’t know what spiritual world is so we have to be a little carefull.
God doesn’t want you to believe in Him because of facts in books.
In fact the facts is one of the most important thing that we need in our spiritual journey.
If He wanted you to believe in Him because of facts, He could have made himself a huge amphitheater in the sky and do three shows a day. Making new animals out of nothing and by doing miracles, but He doesn’t, why?
Yes, he of course could do that. I am wondering why he make exceptions, your case!
Because God wants you to just want to believe.
Why? This seems nonsense to me.
You were born ignorant of everything, including the knowledge of God. If what you want is to not believe, you have what you want. If what you really want to believe is there is a place where we can exist for eternity and that the God that created you wants to be with you. Then just pray “God, I want to believe, but I can’t” like I did and see if He won’t change your mind.
This paragraph is full of contradictions. We would only pray when we are in state of belief. We should wonder where was the place that the first impression about God existence comes from?
 
Sorry, that is all mythology, not “facts”. In the biblical times the Jews were very good record keepers. The “miracles” attributed to Jesus were out of the ordinary - yet no one made a note of them.
Why would you say this? Luke notes:

Luke 1:1-4
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

“Many” had written accounts of Jesus before Luke. Perhaps you have heard of Q, M and L?
The whole story about Jesus was written (at least four, probably more) decades after his death.
Incorrect.

Mark was probably written around AD 55 or so. How do we know this?

The New Testament fails to mention the destruction of the Temple which occurred in AD 70. Since Jesus had prophesied this event (cf. Mk 13:1-2), the authors of the NT books and letters would have highlighted His prediction prominently if it had been fulfilled. This silence suggests that the New Testament was written prior to AD 70.

The New Testament fails to mention the seige of Jerusalem which lasted for three years and ended with the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. This silence suggests that the New Testament was written prior to AD 67.

Luke, the author of the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles does not mention the martyrdoms of Peter or Paul which took place in AD 65 and AD 64 respectively. Moreover, the Book of Acts ends abruptly with Paul alive and under house arrest in Rome. This silence suggests that the Luke’s accounts were written prior to AD 64.

Luke, a trained physician and a skillful historian, recorded the martydoms of Stephen (cf. Acts 7:54-60) and James, the brother of John (cf. Acts 12:1-2), but he does not mention the death of James, the “brother” of Jesus, who was martyred in AD 62. This silence suggests that Luke wrote Acts prior to AD 62.

Luke’s Gospel was written prior to the book of Acts as Luke himself records:

Acts 1:1-2
In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

This suggests that Luke’s Gospel was written prior to AD 62.

In his first letter to Timothy, Paul quotes a phrase from Luke’s gospel:

Luke 10:6-7
6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages.

1 Timothy 5:17-18
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”

Paul quotes the gospel written by his friend, Luke, and refers to it as scripture! But there’s more. In his letter to the Corinthians (dated from AD 53), Paul appears to be quoting another passage written by his friend, Luke.

Luke 22:19-20
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:23-25
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Although all four gospels contain accounts of the Last Supper, only Luke’s gospel contains the words, “Do this in remembrance of me.” From these examples, we can conclude that Paul was quoting from Luke’s gospel repeatedly. The dating of Paul’s epistles (accepted by even skeptical scholars) and the fact that what he is writing is a reminder of that which he had taught them in person previously suggest that Luke was written prior to AD 53.

Luke quoted 250 verses from the gospel of Matthew 250 and 350 verses from the gospel of Mark. This suggests that both of these gospels were known and accepted at the time Luke wrote around AD 53.

(cont.)
 
Not one eye-witness was among the writers. Textual analysis substantiates that the different gospels were all written by many, anonymous writers.
The usual “Liar, Lunatic or Lord” misses the most probable one: “Legend”. All you have is the “claims”… and as we all know, claims are dime a dozen. Every religion claims to be sole arbiter of “truth”. They all claim that the others are either partially of fully in error.
Most people pick whichever was presented to them in their childhood.
Legend? :rotfl:

Is that what real NT scholars think? Here’s one of them - atheist Bart Ehrman - talking about the stupidity of Jesus Mythers:

"Serious historians of the early Christian movement–all of them—have spent many years preparing to be experts in their field. Just to read the ancient sources requires expertise in a range of ancient languages: Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and often Aramaic, Syriac, and Coptic, not to mention the modern languages of scholarship (for example, German and French). And that is just for starters. Expertise requires years of patiently examining ancient texts and a thorough grounding in the history and culture of Greek and Roman antiquity, the religions of the ancient Mediterranean world, both pagan and Jewish, knowledge of the history of the Christian church and the development of its social life and theology, and, well, lots of other things. It is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure. Again, this is not a piece of evidence, but if nothing else, it should give one pause. In the field of biology, evolution may be “just” a theory (as some politicians painfully point out), but it is the theory subscribed to, for good reason, by every real scientist in every established university in the Western world.

“Still, as is clear from the avalanche of sometimes outraged postings on all the relevant Internet sites, there is simply no way to convince conspiracy theorists that the evidence of their position is too thin to be convincing and that the evidence for the traditional view is thoroughly persuasive. Anyone who chooses to believe something contrary to evidence that an overwhelming majority of people find overwhelmingly convincing—whether it involves the fact of the Holocaust, the landing on the moon, the assassination of Presidents, or even a presidential place of birth—will not be convinced. Simply will [emphasis original] not be convinced.

“And so…I do not expect to convince anyone in that boat. What I do hope is to convince genuine seekers who really want to know how we know that Jesus did exist, as virtually every scholar of antiquity, of biblical studies, of classics, and of Christian origins in this country and, in the Western world agrees. Many of these scholars have no vested interest in the matter. As it turns out, I myself do not either. I am not a Christian, and I have no interest in promoting a Christian cause or a Christian agenda. I am an agnostic with atheist leanings, and my life and views of the world would be approximately the same whether or not Jesus existed. My beliefs would vary little. The answer to the question of Jesus’ historical existence will not make me more or less happy, content, hopeful, likable, rich, famous, or immortal.

“But as a historian, I think evidence matters. And the past matters. And for anyone to whom both evidence and the past matter, a dispassionate consideration of the case makes it quite plain: Jesus did exist. He may not have been the Jesus that you mother believes in or the Jesus of the stain-glass window or the Jesus of your least favorite televangelist or the Jesus proclaimed by the Vatican, the Southern Baptist Convention, the local megachurch, or the California Gnostic. But he did exist, and we can say a few things with relative certainty about him.” (Ehrman, Bart, Did Jesus Exist?, 5-6.)

(cont.)
 
As atheist Tim O’Neill points out here, there are two ancient, non-biblical authors whose references to the crucifixion of Jesus are beyond question: Josephus and Tacitus. I’ll begin with those.

Josephus (AD 93-94)

“At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.” (Antiquities XVIII, 63 from Josephus: The Essential Writings by Paul L. Maier, page 264-265; this text is from An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications by S. Pines [Jerusalem, 1971]; another translation of above found in Van Voorst, page 97; for a different version of the text infamously interpolated by later Christian editors, see discussion in Van Voorst, page 85ff; also full discussion in A Marginal Jew, volume 1 by John P. Meier, pages 56ff)

This text, which definitely mentions Jesus and his crucifixion under Pilate by a well-known Jewish historian of the first century, is hotly disputed because of possible later ‘Christian interpolation’; however, the version given above is a translation of the Arabic text which does not contain the ‘Christian’ additions.

Tacitus (AD 116)

“Therefore, to put down the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits and punished in the most unusual ways those hated for their shameful acts [flagitia], whom the crowd called ‘Chrestians.’ The founder of this name, Christ, had been executed in the reign of Tiberius by the procurator Pontius Pilate. Suppressed for a time, the deadly superstition erupted again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but also in the city [Rome], where all things horrible and shameful from everywhere come together and become popular. Therefore, first those who admitted to it were arrested, then on their information a very large multitude was convicted, not so much for the crime of arson as for hatred of the human race. Derision was added to their end: they were covered with the skins of wild animals and torn to death by dogs; or they were crucified and when the day ended they were burned as torches. Nero provided his gardens for the spectacle and gave a show in his circus, mixing with the people in charioteer’s clothing, or standing on his racing chariot.” (Annals of Imperial Rome 15:44)

Christ is definitely mentioned here by a major Roman historian as being ‘the founder’ of Christianity and as ‘executed in the reign of Tiberius’ under Pontius Pilate. As Tim O’Neill notes:

“This clear reference to Jesus, complete with the details of his execution by Pilate, is a major problem for the Mythicists. They sometimes try to deal with it using their old standby argument: a claim that it is a later interpolation. But this passage is distinctively Tacitean in its language and style and it is hard to see how a later Christian scribe could have managed to affect perfect second century Latin grammar and an authentic Tacitean style and fool about 400 years worth of Tacitus scholars, who all regard this passage and clearly genuine.”
 
You failed. I am in fact not trolling. I am wondering how you could be mislead by judging me wrong when God is with you!?
Actually, you are trolling and a lier, because you know you are trolling.
 
How can you know of your existence and god’s existence “in the same manner”…when you yourself are an actual, concrete, physical body in front of you that you can see and touch and move…but god(s) are not?

.
How do I know I am physical?
How do I know I exist, even if everything is illusion?

Even if I consider all to be illusory,
then He who brings me into existence,
as part of the illusion,
He, since my Source is greater than my “illusory” self,
is the One true Reality.

But, I am not an illusion.
I know.
When I know, I am in relation to what I know.
Ultimately, I exist in relation to my Creator.

It’s something like that;
but I’m not a philosopher and
I don’t need reality to make sense
according to concepts that are of limited truth
or to be able to explain it to someone else
based on their cosmology.
To know is more than enough.
 
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