How God could fail to convey his message?

[arthra]

Why the truth should depends on our languages and cultures?

I don’t think the truth “depends” on our languages and cultures but in order for us to understand the truth we are dependent on semantics… In time human beings will reach a stage where our communication will be more shared and universal.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . In time human beings will reach a stage where our communication will be more shared and universal.

God willing, through His grace. This could all end up another Tower of Babel, without Him.

 

[Bahman]

That is a pretty good evasive response. Shall we get back to your topic? Can you refute my proposals?

My argument was not an evasive response instead pretty in the line of my reasoning. I stand my position and argue the same: We have different state of minds/believes about God since we were not convinced. Isn’t it simple for God to convinced us? It is since he is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He could convinced us in a instant that he exist. How this could be human failure? You know that I am a human being since I present myself to you. It should be very simple. So we have two options here: either God didn’t intended to present himself to us or he failed.

And where is this “deity” now?

Anywhere! The same place that Jesus is or maybe higher or lower. How could we know?

Lots of people claim all kinds of stuff, but if she is deity stuff, she should be reigning supreme over the Abrahamic God.

Yeah lots of people claim different stuff. Ironically what is claim about Jesus divinity are as same as hers. Why number of people who believe something should be measure of truth?

Since she is not reigning, she can’t be the “top” God and therefore not worthy of worship.

That is not a good argument since people could be simply mislead by Satan!

And since there is only 1 true God, she fortunately doesn’t made the grade so to speak.

That is not a good argument since people could be simply mislead by Satan.

Out of curiosity, you mentioned “She more or less claimed what Jesus claimed”. Where is your source for this statement? I would like to accumulate this info for my database.

There is a documentary movie about this.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t think the truth “depends” on our languages and cultures but in order for us to understand the truth we are dependent on semantics… In time human beings will reach a stage where our communication will be more shared and universal.

You are Bahaie! How you could believe on your prophet when Mohammad clearly declared that he is the last prophet. There is an internal inconsistency in your system of belief. Moreover, the idea of God is so simple that could be shared and understood with primitive human being so why people are in such a confusion about the truth now?

 

[Aloysium]

You are Bahaie! How you could believe on your prophet when Mohammad clearly declared that he is the last prophet. There is an internal inconsistency in your system of belief. Moreover, the idea of God is so simple that could be shared and understood with primitive human being so why people are in such a confusion about the truth now?

Ah, . . . he said he was Bahai’a. It means he is not Muslim.
He was not talking about the idea of God, he spoke of God’s revelation of Himself to humanity.
As to the confusion, try Mark 8:18 “HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember, . . .”
Are you catching on to the meaning of this?
Look the bottom line is that if you want to know the Truth, you have to stop merely juggling ideas and search for it. It is everywhere. Once the truth is clear, you will see how everyone is talking about it in their own fashion, some more clearly than others. You seem to be looking for your own personal truth and that is all that you will find, ulimately only confusion.

 

[arthra]

You are Bahaie! How you could believe on your prophet when Mohammad clearly declared that he is the last prophet. There is an internal inconsistency in your system of belief. Moreover, the idea of God is so simple that could be shared and understood with primitive human being so why people are in such a confusion about the truth now?

Thanks for your post…

In our view Prophet Muhammad was indicating He was the Seal of the Prophets…meaning “Seal” as an authenticated seal rather than that there would be no more prophets.

As to confusion among people …hopefully through education and training we’ll all be able to understand each other. Baha’u’llah proposed uniting the planet through universal education and selecting a common auxiliary language.

 

[ericc]

My argument was not an evasive response instead pretty in the line of my reasoning. I stand my position and argue the same: We have different state of minds/believes about God since we were not convinced. Isn’t it simple for God to convinced us? It is since he is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He could convinced us in a instant that he exist. How this could be human failure? You know that I am a human being since I present myself to you. It should be very simple. So we have two options here: either God didn’t intended to present himself to us or he failed.

It is evasive because you do not attempt to refute my proposal. You assume God is guilty first off and refuse to even consider that humans can be wrong. Whether God is guilty or not is yet to be proven by you. All you are saying is there are many religions therefore God is at fault. Obviously it does not follow. And I am asking you why didn’t you consider man at fault instead. And you don’t even attempt to answer. That is evasive. Your personal beliefs are not being challenged here. You can believe in whatsoever you wish. What I am asking you is why Man can not be the answer to the problem you posed. And you present only 2 alternatives out of a population set of many. That is engaging in fallacious reasoning. If you stand firm on not responding to valid counterclaims, then why post at all? It just show lack of sincerity on your part to engage in serious debate on this topic. After all you are the OP and not just a bystander.

Anywhere! The same place that Jesus is or maybe higher or lower. How could we know?

Basically you don’t know the answer. You have no idea where she is, what she has done, what she has taught, what she is capable of. All you have shown is that you have seen a movie made/shown in 2007.

Yeah lots of people claim different stuff. Ironically what is claim about Jesus divinity are as same as hers. Why number of people who believe something should be measure of truth?

Jesus is a historical person. I am not sure who Mithra is. Do you know who she is? What did this “god” teach us humans? What message did this “god” convey? When did she appear? How was she born? Who are her parents? How did she know she is deity? How did she prove she is deity? Did she die? Why could a deity die? What happened to her after she passed on? Is she reigning in Heaven now? How many years did she live? Who are currently/previously her worshipers?

If Mithra is real and Top God, she would be reigning. I didn’t say it is based upon the number of people. And if she is reigning, who is worshiping her currently? If you do not know what or who she is, why bring her into this discussion? Exactly who is claiming Mithra to be a deity? Where is your historical support?

That is not a good argument since people could be simply mislead by Satan!

And if people are misled by Satan, then 2 parties are involved. One is Satan and the other “People”. One is guilty for misleading and the other for following. God is not involved. And yet your finger is pointing at God! Just typical of certain people who is ready to find fault in others but not in themselves. Again I ask you, why can’t man be at fault? And why is Satan not on your list of possible culprits? Your post omits Satan completely from the list of contenders. Are you still standing by your position that only God is at fault? How can that position of yours be fair after you have presented that people can be misled by Satan.

There is a documentary movie about this.

You proffer the work of Peter Joseph, an advertising and private equity trader on Wall Street as historical evidence for Mithra? , a challenger to the deity of Jesus??? Because he made a movie in 2007? Have you verified the claims in the movie?

And all you have is a movie made by an advertising man and that is enough for you to form your beliefs? And that is enough for you to use to attack God? Surely you don’t expect anyone to take your arguments seriously? I was hoping at least to see some writings of reputable historians who has done proper research.

Perhaps I am some what incredulous. May be I should cut some slack for Peter Joseph assuming he may have done some proper homework on Mithra. Do you know his historical sources he relied on to make this documentary? Do you have a basis for relying on his work? I am not terribly impressed by his credentials. His other work being (from wiki) a “short-film” music video for the heavy metal music group Black Sabbath, entitled “God Is Dead?”

 

[oldcelt]

It is evasive because you do not attempt to refute my proposal. You assume God is guilty first off and refuse to even consider that humans can be wrong. Whether God is guilty or not is yet to be proven by you. All you are saying is there are many religions therefore God is at fault. Obviously it does not follow. And I am asking you why didn’t you consider man at fault instead. And you don’t even attempt to answer. That is evasive. Your personal beliefs are not being challenged here. You can believe in whatsoever you wish. What I am asking you is why Man can not be the answer to the problem you posed. And you present only 2 alternatives out of a population set of many. That is engaging in fallacious reasoning. If you stand firm on not responding to valid counterclaims, then why post at all? It just show lack of sincerity on your part to engage in serious debate on this topic. After all you are the OP and not just a bystander.

Basically you don’t know the answer. You have no idea where she is, what she has done, what she has taught, what she is capable of. All you have shown is that you have seen a movie made/shown in 2007.

Jesus is a historical person. I am not sure who Mithra is. Do you know who she is? What did this “god” teach us humans? What message did this “god” convey? When did she appear? How was she born? Who are her parents? How did she know she is deity? How did she prove she is deity? Did she die? Why could a deity die? What happened to her after she passed on? Is she reigning in Heaven now? How many years did she live? Who are currently/previously her worshipers?

If Mithra is real and Top God, she would be reigning. I didn’t say it is based upon the number of people. And if she is reigning, who is worshiping her currently? If you do not know what or who she is, why bring her into this discussion? Exactly who is claiming Mithra to be a deity? Where is your historical support?

And if people are misled by Satan, then 2 parties are involved. One is Satan and the other “People”. One is guilty for misleading and the other for following. God is not involved. And yet your finger is pointing at God! Just typical of certain people who is ready to find fault in others but not in themselves. Again I ask you, why can’t man be at fault? And why is Satan not on your list of possible culprits? Your post omits Satan completely from the list of contenders. Are you still standing by your position that only God is at fault? How can that position of yours be fair after you have presented that people can be misled by Satan.

You proffer the work of Peter Joseph, an advertising and private equity trader on Wall Street as historical evidence for Mithra? , a challenger to the deity of Jesus??? Because he made a movie in 2007? Have you verified the claims in the movie?

And all you have is a movie made by an advertising man and that is enough for you to form your beliefs? And that is enough for you to use to attack God? Surely you don’t expect anyone to take your arguments seriously? I was hoping at least to see some writings of reputable historians who has done proper research.

Perhaps I am some what incredulous. May be I should cut some slack for Peter Joseph assuming he may have done some proper homework on Mithra. Do you know his historical sources he relied on to make this documentary? Do you have a basis for relying on his work? I am not terribly impressed by his credentials. His other work being (from wiki) a “short-film” music video for the heavy metal music group Black Sabbath, entitled “God Is Dead?”

None of us have any proof for our supernatural beliefs, or lack thereof. We are here on this world by some cause…my explanation would likely be far different from yours.

John

 

[ericc]

None of us have any proof for our supernatural beliefs, or lack thereof. We are here on this world by some cause…my explanation would likely be far different from yours.

John

For some, none is required. For some, they may have personal experiences of the supernatural even if nothing was caught on camera. For some, they desperately need evidences beyond doubt that God exist. Some require a 100%, grasping whatever infinitely small probabilities that God may potentially not exist to keep God at bay.

But seriously, all that is not THAT important. If one believes one has a soul that is immortal, and believes that this soul should preferably eventually join up with his Creator (and not the Other Guy), he should do whatever it takes to reach his end result.

If he doesn’t believe in anything or even various variants of the afterlife, that is also permissible. I believe the choices that one makes in this life determines the destination of one’s after life. Just because there is a Judge. The Judge knows your thoughts and intentions and what you did and that will decide what the end destination will be. It does not depend on whether others managed to convince you of the existence of God, the Goodness of God, the Greatness of God. If one is not part of God’s family, why would he bother to look out for you, other than dispensing justice and mercy. He will try to pull you in but he will let you reject him as well.

 

[Bahman]

Ah, . . . he said he was Bahai’a. It means he is not Muslim.

I didn’t say that he is a Muslim.

He was not talking about the idea of God, he spoke of God’s revelation of Himself to humanity.
As to the confusion, try Mark 8:18 “HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember, . . .”
Are you catching on to the meaning of this?

This sounds nonsense to me. Is it difficult for you to believe that I exist? It is matter of being conceived by justifying the subject matter. You are a Christian striving to a concept of God. Have you have ever had any spiritual experience? The concept we construct is not a measure of reality. We need to be revealed by the truth in order to justify the subject matter.

Look the bottom line is that if you want to know the Truth, you have to stop merely juggling ideas and search for it. It is everywhere. Once the truth is clear, you will see how everyone is talking about it in their own fashion, some more clearly than others.

In fact, quite oppositely truth can be found only by juggling the ideas when people are so separated on what truth is!

You seem to be looking for your own personal truth and that is all that you will find, ulimately only confusion.

I am not confused. I have a clear idea about what truth is and that is why I can challenge you and your idea of truth.

 

[Aloysium]

Juggling ideas, they can appear disjointed, contradictory and absurd.
View attachment 22119
On the other hand, if you know what an elephant is, you understand what the blind men are saying.

 

[pete_29]

Because people are unable, or more likely, unwilling to understand the message.

 

[Bahman]

It is evasive because you do not attempt to refute my proposal.

What is your proposal? That the guilt is in shoulders of people! We share many universal ideas about what reality look likes. We can only do that if and only if we can justify the subject matter and that is not possible unless we share the common sense experiences about the subject matter. What sort of experience? Like people live on earth, etc. There is however is big controversy about spiritual worlds because either people don’t have any spiritual experience or they cannot share it with others. How we can find a solution about this? There is no solution for this unless we have common experience of subject matter, namely spiritual worlds, otherwise we are diluted with the concepts we have created or the concepts we have been given. Now I am in the position to ask you a question? How this, the confusion about spiritual worlds, could be fault of people?

You assume God is guilty first off and refuse to even consider that humans can be wrong.

Human is allowed to be wrong about spiritual worlds until s/he is faced with the clear facts. Why we don’t have access to spiritual worlds if they really exist. You claim that this is human fault without providing any fact. I am providing an argument about this with a clear fact: why we should have common belief about God and spirituality when the truth is not revealed to us? Yes. It is all human faults!

Whether God is guilty or not is yet to be proven by you.

It is God’s fault according to your system of belief since God don’t reveal himself to individuals. How many people on the earth share common experience of God? Maybe very few. What is the result? People live in the big confusion! Why? Because they are left with their imagination. Where this imagination could go? To the edge of stupidity!

All you are saying is there are many religions therefore God is at fault.

Yes, and I think I was clear enough by former arguments.

Obviously it does not follow. And I am asking you why didn’t you consider man at fault instead. And you don’t even attempt to answer.

I did and I hope that my answers is pleasing to you.

That is evasive.

I was not.

Your personal beliefs are not being challenged here. You can believe in whatsoever you wish. What I am asking you is why Man can not be the answer to the problem you posed.

Please read the former arguments.

And you present only 2 alternatives out of a population set of many. That is engaging in fallacious reasoning. If you stand firm on not responding to valid counterclaims, then why post at all? It just show lack of sincerity on your part to engage in serious debate on this topic. After all you are the OP and not just a bystander.

Have you ever had a single spiritual experience? How you could justify it? Maybe it does not exist at all!

Basically you don’t know the answer. You have no idea where she is, what she has done, what she has taught, what she is capable of. All you have shown is that you have seen a movie made/shown in 2007.

Why I should bother my mind about this? I have no time to read and practice all religions! I practiced a few. How about you? Have you ever practiced another religion?

Jesus is a historical person.

The same apply to Mithra.

I am not sure who Mithra is.

Why not? She performed miracles like Jesus, at least it is claimed? What she thought is not subject of this discussion, whatever.

Do you know who she is?

A historical picture.

 

[Bahman]

What did this “god” teach us humans?

Whatever. Why the content of her teaching should matter at all. You mean God by the way?

What message did this “god” convey?

That not related to our discussion.

When did she appear?

Why this should matter at all?

How was she born?

The same as Jesus: Virgin birth!

Who are her parents?

Why it should matter?

How did she know she is deity?

You are kidding? Don’t you? She believed that she is deity as Jesus believed!

How did she prove she is deity?

By performing miracles, such a lame way to convince people about deity!

Did she die?

Yes. Apparently all human being die.

Why could a deity die?

You are kidding? Jesus apparently died too! She sacrificed herself!

What happened to her after she passed on?

Who knows?

Is she reigning in Heaven now?

I don’t know. There must a big fight about who is God if she is in Heaven!

How many years did she live?

Why this should matter?

Who are currently/previously her worshipers?

Please read this.

If Mithra is real and Top God, she would be reigning. I didn’t say it is based upon the number of people. And if she is reigning, who is worshiping her currently? If you do not know what or who she is, why bring her into this discussion? Exactly who is claiming Mithra to be a deity? Where is your historical support?

That doesn’t matter at all but you can read about this in the link I provided in the last comment.

And if people are misled by Satan, then 2 parties are involved. One is Satan and the other “People”. One is guilty for misleading and the other for following. God is not involved.

No, God is responsible for such a situation. How God could allow Satan to mislead people? Kill Satan and half of the problem, perhaps all problems, are solved.

And yet your finger is pointing at God! Just typical of certain people who is ready to find fault in others but not in themselves. Again I ask you, why can’t man be at fault? And why is Satan not on your list of possible culprits? Your post omits Satan completely from the list of contenders. Are you still standing by your position that only God is at fault? How can that position of yours be fair after you have presented that people can be misled by Satan.

Yes, I am still holding my position. In fact I can bring many reasons that God is a failure in your perspective, one extra reason is free existence of Satan. He apparently does whatever he likes!

You proffer the work of Peter Joseph, an advertising and private equity trader on Wall Street as historical evidence for Mithra? , a challenger to the deity of Jesus??? Because he made a movie in 2007? Have you verified the claims in the movie?

You can google to know more.

And all you have is a movie made by an advertising man and that is enough for you to form your beliefs? And that is enough for you to use to attack God? Surely you don’t expect anyone to take your arguments seriously? I was hoping at least to see some writings of reputable historians who has done proper research.

Please google.

Perhaps I am some what incredulous. May be I should cut some slack for Peter Joseph assuming he may have done some proper homework on Mithra. Do you know his historical sources he relied on to make this documentary? Do you have a basis for relying on his work? I am not terribly impressed by his credentials. His other work being (from wiki) a “short-film” music video for the heavy metal music group Black Sabbath, entitled “God Is Dead?”

Whatever. You already evade the discussion.

 

[Bahman]

Juggling ideas, they can appear disjointed, contradictory and absurd.

Juggling ideas is the only way in this mess diluted by Satan. Do we have another option?

On the other hand, if you know what an elephant is, you understand what the blind men are saying.

Apparently we are all blind until we can make it.

 

[Bahman]

Because people are unable, or more likely,

Seriously? You are putting the failure on God’s shoulder since people cannot do anything about the situation.

unwilling to understand the message.

That apparently applies to many people including yourself since you are contradicting yourself.

 

[Aloysium]

Juggling ideas is the only way in this mess diluted by Satan. Do we have another option? Apparently we are all blind until we can make it.

Prayer is required if the truth is about God; you need a dialogue for a relationship to flourish.
it is the relationship that truly satisfies. Knowing about someone cannot measure to being and interacting with them.

 

[Bahman]

Prayer is required if the truth is about God;

Praying is a waste of time. We need to search the truth.

you need a dialogue for a relationship to flourish.

Relationship is meaningful when God is present to perform a dialogue. Have you ever had a conversation with God?

it is the relationship that truly satisfies.

Have you ever had a conversation with God? Why not?

Knowing about someone cannot measure to being and interacting with them.

I don’t understand. Could you please elaborate?

 

[Godconvertedme]

Praying is a waste of time. We need to search the truth.

Without prayer, man will never find or understand the Truth. Man is capable of being wrong and is wrong more then he likes to admit. The fact man is inherently wrong, because of lack of knowledge and understanding, is the reason there are so many religions. The Truth is only truely knowable and assured of, by revelation of God. Which is why God has been reveling Himself to mankind for thousands of years. First to the Jews, as the Father; then to the world, in the person of Jesus Christ and then to anyone willing to listen, in the form of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Godconvertedme]

I tried deleting my previous post and couldn’t.

Praying is a waste of time. We need to search the truth.

Without prayer, man’s search for physical truth is difficult and he or she is often wrong. Spiritual Truth is impossible to know without a revelation from God and as such, requires prayer. It also require fasting or giving of alms or all three. Man is inherently capable of being wrong and is wrong more then he likes to admit. God however is not capable of being wrong. The fact man is inherently wrong, because of lack of knowledge and understanding, is the reason there are so many religions. Infinite numbers of people making up whatever they want to. The Spiritual Truth is only truely knowable and assured of, by revelation of God. Which is why God has been reveling Himself to mankind for thousands of years. First to the Jews, as the Father; then to the world, in the person of Jesus Christ and then to anyone willing to listen, in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Relationship is meaningful when God is present to perform a dialogue. Have you ever had a conversation with God?

Yes, I have had a continuous conversation with God now for over eight years. During those years He took me from nonbelieving ex-Baptist to believing theist to believing Protestant to Faithful Catholic. He has determined the last 3 places I have lived, brought me through a divorce, selected my divorce lawyer, selected the place I am currently employed, promised me a new wife and told me who that wife is. He woke me up for days on end, at 2:22 am, 3:33 am, 4:44 am or 5:55 am, as I debated Trinity vs Oneness with myself. Now every time I see 3 of the same number in a row, it makes me smile. He’s assured me my Baptist grandfather is in heaven. He’s sent me to help people. Three of which would have most likely died if I hadn’t intervened. He’s also instructed me to do many things I have refused to do. Like tell my other grandfather, before he died of cancer, God loves him and is willing to forgive him for being an alcoholic his whole life. I regret not delivering that message deeply, but I was more worried about looking insane at that time. I don’t worry about that so much anymore.