How God could fail to convey his message?

[Secant]

Understand that since this is a Catholic forum and I am a Catholic. This means that you will get answers to the question with a Catholic point of view.

There are many different reasons why there are different religions. However, if we look at the options for religions, we don’t have many. We have ones that believe in a single God (Judeism, Christianity - with all its sects, Islam, and a few others) and the ones that don’t, either ones that believe in a multiple gods,ones that believe in the world/universe as God, and ones that put the self as God. I believe that numerically, most religions believe in one God, and most of those believe in the same God. So if we just look at why there are so many different monotheistic religions, we can see that it is not that they disagree with the message that there is God, but they disagree with the procedure of how best to live their lives following him. Why this is has been covered by myself and many other posters.

Now the Catholic view, (held by many Christian denominations) is that there are multitudes of fallen angels, each having fallen by means of their own free will after facing God and having received from him, in person, the specific knowledge of what it means to follow him. Their free will allows them to do many things, including sending false messages about God. This can lead to the beliefs that there are different numbers of Gods, leading to the poly/pan-theistic religions. Therefore, it really is by free will that we have so many religions. Remember that it isn’t just you and I who have free will, but also those who wish to lie.

This does not lead to damnation of all souls, as many feel. Without knowledge of the Divine Law, there is no damnation, meaning if you truly get it wrong through no fault of your own, but truly wish to follow and understand God, you get a pass. However, you must seek good and truth. This is because God said (in the most publicized fashion we have today) that he and he alone is truth.

If you are truly seeking God, study not just religion, but logic, science, and history. Each will lead you to him and, as one who is on that journey even though I’ve made some serious mistakes on the way, I know that you will come home to the Catholic Church, the only religion in the world that manages to be logically consistent, scientifically based, and supported with the weight of history. it is, I fully admit, a long and hard journey, but study these concepts to better understand God. One of my previous posts on this thread mentions a place to start. Many of the questions about the logic supporting our beliefs can be answered with the books sold on this site, or even asked about separately in the forums.

 

[adrift]

Didn’t Jesus said to love your enemy?

You answered a question by asking a question which was actually a straw man question.

So burning people in fire is a part of Jesus teaching!?

another straw man and a non sequitur to boot.

We learn the very concept of sin from our parents which means that our essenses are blank in the time of birth.

non sequitur.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . But you cannot say that the message is there, and I received it but I am not willing to follow it. That is not acceptable. There are levels of insults which are simply beyond acceptability.

My impression, sorry for the intrusion, is that:
The message is there and it tears away at you.
It does that because your mind has distorted it and it seeks to be made clear.
That is why you are here.
I do not care to argue with Amazonian shamanists about their views of reality.
Yet, you come here to argue.
You should sort out, for your own benefit, why?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

My impression, sorry for the intrusion, is that:
The message is there and it tears away at you.

Your impression is wrong.

It does that because your mind has distorted it and it seeks to be made clear.

I am lucky to have a thick skin, so these kinds of insults do not affect me.

That is why you are here.

Don’t give up your day gig… as a “seer” you would starve real quickly.

What is very telling is that you did not answer the REAL points I made, namely that God should be smart enough to realize that “one size does not fit all”. and if he would care, then he should tailor the message to the recipient. This is really elementary, my dear Watson.

 

[tonyrey]

God has **not **

Liberty doesn’t consist in believing what you like but in accepting the truth that the **teaching of Jesus is the basis of the UNDHR and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity accepted by civilised people throughout the world.

**You can ignore it but then your argument is based on thin air…

 

[Aloysium]

Y . . .I am lucky to have a thick skin, so these kinds of insults do not affect me. Don’t give up your day gig… as a “seer” you would starve real quickly. What is very telling is that you did not answer the REAL points I made, namely that God should be smart enough to realize that “one size does not fit all”. and if he would care, then he should tailor the message to the recipient. This is really elementary, my dear Watson.

I did not mean to offend,
but to simply point out to you what has been repeatedly fed back to you,
that you do not understand the basics of Christianity, let alone Catholicism.

I am suggesting, for your benefit, to reflect on what brings you here.
I am not arguing on any Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Baha’ia, Baptist, Atheist or any other religious forum.
Why are you here?

You may be here because God intends to dispell the fog that keeps you from the truth.

If you do not believe so,
perhaps you have a set of beliefs,
which you may wish to follow and see where they lead.
Your time would be better spent in that pursuit of the truth, than arguing about things no one actually believes in.

I had to laugh because I am a consultant in my area of applied science.
My day gig involves getting paid for my opinion.
And, you get it for free, even when you don’t ask for or want it. How fortunate.

The message that love is of supreme importance is understandable by everyone. Here “one size does fit all”.
I see nothing in what you have written that suggests you have not picked up on that message.
It just sounds like you would like life to be easier. Maybe it should make sense on your terms.
It isn’t and it doesn’t, but the Man on the cross enables us to face all trials and to come to the truth.
You have to reach out.

 

[tonyrey]

D
So burning people in fire is a part of Jesus teaching!?

You have made it clear in your other posts that you do not recognise analogies…
That is why you believe God has failed to convey His message.

 

[tonyrey]

What is very telling is that you did not answer the REAL points I made, namely that God should be smart enough to realize that “one size does not fit all”. and if he would care, then he should tailor the message to the recipient. This is really elementary, my dear Watson.

Do you genuinely believe you are capable of creating a superior universe without providing any evidence you are qualified to do so?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

You may be here because God intends to dispell the fog that keeps you from the truth.

If that is the case, he chose a very inefficient method. I am ready and willing to have a one-on-one conversation. No need to rely on third parties. Especially not one where the members of that third party cannot agree among themselves. Pick two believers, and you will hear at least three opinions… and depending on the time of the day, probably more.

The message that love is of supreme importance is understandable by everyone. Here “one size does fit all”.

First, “love” is not an epistemological method, it is just an undefined buzzword. Second, if you refer to the golden rule, it has nothing to do with Christianity. Third, if you refer to John 3:16, you could not have picked a worse choice.

In my neck of the woods ONE meaning of the word “love” is action aimed at helping others. I repeat: “action” and not “will”. “Love” cannot be reconciled with indifference. And if you look at the world as it is today, the most positive assessment about God’s (in)actions is that he does not care or is indifferent. Yes, I know that if God gave an unambiguous sign of his existence and benevolence, we would all turn into mindless zombies, who would all lose our freedom to “believe or not to believe”. Among other things such incorrect utterances keep me from taking you guys seriously. If we would KNOW that God exists, and KNOW exactly what his requirements are, THEN we would be in the position to make meaningful choices, whether to follow those requirements, or not. That would be the proper amount of “free will”. (And no, neither you, nor the Bible, nor the church or the pope speaks for God. Only God would speak for God, if only he would not be so bashful and shy.)

 

[Aloysium]

. . .

 

[Bahman]

If you have read my 1 a)(ii) and may be (v), that was my proposal for the different religions and permutations.

They are not. They just put the blame on humanity this or other way. However God’s knows that human fail to get his message this way or other way hence the failure is his.

That question wasn’t in your original quest. But a short answer to that is historical confirmation by the appearance of Jesus. He confirmed that there is a visible God.

The history is full of individuals who claim that they are God. Example: Mitra, Jesus,

Some possibly are. The founders of those religions are human and non-deity. They never claim Godhood as far as I know. Some didn’t asked to be worshiped but succeeding generations of followers may have done that. Some religions are just a way of life rather than a God-worshiping religion. And some just claim to speak for God. And some religions may claim to be godless. And there are various permutations so it is difficult for me to know exactly what each strain actually believes. And not all religions worship God. Some worship their ancestors, some worship spirits of nature, some demons and evil spirits. My 1 a)(i) attempts to answer that last sentence.

But I could be wrong because I didn’t do a deep study of what those religions are. If they are man made, I am not interested in following just another wise guy. There are plenty in every age.

My proposed answers attempt to deal with some of these possibilities. I am surprised that you think I made no argument at all. But I tried and I guess didn’t meet your standard of an argument. But that’s alright.

Cool.

 

[Bahman]

There are many different reasons why there are different religions. However, if we look at the options for religions, we don’t have many. We have ones that believe in a single God (Judeism, Christianity - with all its sects, Islam, and a few others) and the ones that don’t, either ones that believe in a multiple gods,ones that believe in the world/universe as God, and ones that put the self as God. I believe that numerically, most religions believe in one God, and most of those believe in the same God. So if we just look at why there are so many different monotheistic religions, we can see that it is not that they disagree with the message that there is God, but they disagree with the procedure of how best to live their lives following him. Why this is has been covered by myself and many other posters.

This is not a good argument since everything depends on how you define God or Gods. The truth should not be a matter of how we define God, monotheism, etc!

Now the Catholic view, (held by many Christian denominations) is that there are multitudes of fallen angels, each having fallen by means of their own free will after facing God and having received from him, in person, the specific knowledge of what it means to follow him. Their free will allows them to do many things, including sending false messages about God. This can lead to the beliefs that there are different numbers of Gods, leading to the poly/pan-theistic religions. Therefore, it really is by free will that we have so many religions. Remember that it isn’t just you and I who have free will, but also those who wish to lie.

How could you be sure that Christianity is not work of fallen angles?

This does not lead to damnation of all souls, as many feel. Without knowledge of the Divine Law, there is no damnation, meaning if you truly get it wrong through no fault of your own, but truly wish to follow and understand God, you get a pass. However, you must seek good and truth. This is because God said (in the most publicized fashion we have today) that he and he alone is truth.

If you are truly seeking God, study not just religion, but logic, science, and history. Each will lead you to him and, as one who is on that journey even though I’ve made some serious mistakes on the way, I know that you will come home to the Catholic Church, the only religion in the world that manages to be logically consistent, scientifically based, and supported with the weight of history. it is, I fully admit, a long and hard journey, but study these concepts to better understand God. One of my previous posts on this thread mentions a place to start. Many of the questions about the logic supporting our beliefs can be answered with the books sold on this site, or even asked about separately in the forums.

I have many post that I discuss your concept of God is wrong. Please read through if you are interested.

 

[Bahman]

You answered a question by asking a question which was actually a straw man question.

another straw man and a non sequitur to boot.

non sequitur.

Thanks for not adding anything to the discussion!

 

[Bahman]

Liberty doesn’t consist in believing what you like but in accepting the truth that the **teaching of Jesus is the basis of the UNDHR and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity accepted by civilised people throughout the world.

**You can ignore it but then your argument is based on thin air…

So what you argue is that you are free and not free at the same time! You are not free because you are a follower at the same time the following set you free!

 

[ericc]

They are not. They just put the blame on humanity this or other way. However God’s knows that human fail to get his message this way or other way hence the failure is his.

We are not assigning blame are we? We are finding plausible reasons for various results. Finding faults with human is a feasible and probable solution to your questions. You may wish to challenge that my answer is not a feasible answer due to some logical error. Why must I find fault with God when it is so much more certain that inferior humans can produce these results than trying to put blame on to a superior being? Unless the easier answer is not tenable only then I look for the less improbable one. Or unless you have pre-decided that humans can not be the culprit and must be someone else. Then there is not much fun in answering those questions of yours if you already decided on what is the correct answer. That is why my very first answer to you is “why assume”? The answer is now clearer because you assumed humans have no responsibility for this mess. But honesty should force you to re-look into your position.

The history is full of individuals who claim that they are God. Example: Mitra, Jesus,

Guess who is still around? Which one has that substance that only God possess? I AM. The Alpha and Omega. Did those individuals claim to be creator, all powerful, all knowing? Did Mitra show or interact with humans to demonstrate that (s)he is of deity substance? Or is this individual a foggy, misty kind of individual that no one really knows what/who this person is. False claimers to the throne are many. The winner stands.

 

[arthra]

This is a question that should come to mind of any religious person: How God could fail to convey his message? There are two scenarios available: 1) God didn’t intended to convey any message and all religions are work of people. This is true since there are many religions around the world. 2) God failed. This is true because there are many religions around the world again.

Your thought.

That there are many religions in the world does not mean God failed… It means that at various times God has revealed Himself to people down through the ages and people have various languages and cultures…

“It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.”

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 52

 

[adrift]

Thanks for not adding anything to the discussion!

First it was a straw man fallacy now an ad hominem

 

[Bahman]

We are not assigning blame are we? We are finding plausible reasons for various results. Finding faults with human is a feasible and probable solution to your questions. You may wish to challenge that my answer is not a feasible answer due to some logical error. Why must I find fault with God when it is so much more certain that inferior humans can produce these results than trying to put blame on to a superior being? Unless the easier answer is not tenable only then I look for the less improbable one. Or unless you have pre-decided that humans can not be the culprit and must be someone else. Then there is not much fun in answering those questions of yours if you already decided on what is the correct answer. That is why my very first answer to you is “why assume”? The answer is now clearer because you assumed humans have no responsibility for this mess. But honesty should force you to re-look into your position.

We are not talking of our actions but our believes. We might not serve our believes by performing wrong actions but we cannot resist against truth if it is revealed to us properly. Do you believe that I am a human being arguing with you? It could be so simple. Why people are detached from spiritual worlds? Why we should believe on something which rest in darkness? God could simply present himself and show you the way, instead he prefers to live in darkness.

Guess who is still around? Which one has that substance that only God possess? I AM. The Alpha and Omega. Did those individuals claim to be creator, all powerful, all knowing? Did Mitra show or interact with humans to demonstrate that (s)he is of deity substance? Or is this individual a foggy, misty kind of individual that no one really knows what/who this person is. False claimers to the throne are many. The winner stands.

She more or less claimed what Jesus claimed. Why number of people should be a measure of truth?

 

[Bahman]

That there are many religions in the world does not mean God failed… It means that at various times God has revealed Himself to people down through the ages and people have various languages and cultures…

“It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.”

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 52

Why the truth should depends on our languages and cultures?

 

[ericc]

We are not talking of our actions but our believes. We might not serve our believes by performing wrong actions but we cannot resist against truth if it is revealed to us properly. Do you believe that I am a human being arguing with you? It could be so simple. Why people are detached from spiritual worlds? Why we should believe on something which rest in darkness? God could simply present himself and show you the way, instead he prefers to live in darkness.

That is a pretty good evasive response. Shall we get back to your topic? Can you refute my proposals?

She more or less claimed what Jesus claimed. Why number of people should be a measure of truth?

And where is this “deity” now? Lots of people claim all kinds of stuff, but if she is deity stuff, she should be reigning supreme over the Abrahamic God. Since she is not reigning, she can’t be the “top” God and therefore not worthy of worship. And since there is only 1 true God, she fortunately doesn’t made the grade so to speak.

Out of curiosity, you mentioned “She more or less claimed what Jesus claimed”. Where is your source for this statement? I would like to accumulate this info for my database.